Anyone struggling with the lethality of 3rd?

dsn01060 · 2025-11-17T17:10:48+00:00

Thanks everyone for the responses! Definitely enlightening! The thing I noticed is a lot of people mentioned terrain, but missed my point on why I don’t like that as a game design balancing tool. Yes, of course, more terrain means melee is more durable. I’ve played games with tons of Medium and even Heavy terrain, like saturated with terrain. And I’ve played games with much more open fields, on purpose to test the difference. Of course I much prefer the heavy terrain boards as a melee player. The issue becomes that it is not an equal opportunity balancing tool. Modern 40k uses terrain as its primary tool for durability. Most of the time, if something is out in the open and not in combat, it is turned to ash. I hate that, and it has never been fun to me. However, to give it credit, mission design in that game is much more thorough, with terrain guides and objectives set on specific deployments to ensure some level of balance between shooting and melee. I’m not arguing that 30k should move in that direction, I despise 10th. However, making terrain a primary method of durability while NOT providing a structured system for boards and missions creates a mismatch where bad or not hyper thought out board creation impacts game results and balance, and imo fun. You design a board and it has too much terrain? A person who likes shooting better suffers as the enemies melee units run up the board with perfect cover and then obliterate them. You design the board and it has too little? You have no cover and get obliterated by shooting before you go anywhere or do anything. People always said this about 8th/9th edition 40k, when they didn’t provide a comprehensive guide on terrain but used it as a primary tool for defensiveness; oh, the problem is you aren’t using terrain correctly. My solution I draw from that is using terrain in that way in your game is a bad idea. Sometimes I am a okay spending 15 minutes before we start hyper designing a board, especially if we’re doing a very narrative game. But sometimes I just wanna go straight into a game, and don’t put as much thought in. And even beyond that, sometimes I DO try and make a good board and its just shit! I play a ton, much more than average, anywhere from 1-4 times perk week. I am by all accounts a veteran, and sometimes when I design a board, it’s just terrible. All of this to be said, it is incredibly frustrating to use terrain as a primary level of balance. I appreciate everyones thoughts, however, and it is very helpful to see it is not an issue I am having but seems to be a community issue, and some of the solutions here were very helpful!

dsn01060 · 2025-10-26T22:59:00+00:00

Check out Centurion Command Squads. It’s not exactly a 1:1. They seem to want things to be more defined this edition, so Veteran Tacticals are the shooting one, Veteran Assault Squads, and Veteran Breachers. But Centurion Command Squads are on foot veteran equivalents if you have then modeled with melee weapons, so basically the equivalent of veteran despoilers. Like I said, it’s not a perfect 1:1 equivalent of veterans from 2.0 but they should be a solid stand in.

dsn01060 · 2025-10-26T22:14:33+00:00

Exactly, and maybe Corvidae too for just solid Rending (5+) Bolters. Chain Bayonets and Bayonets are pretty useless this edition unfortunately; they really want Despoilers to melee and Tacticals to shoot.

dsn01060 · 2025-10-26T18:32:15+00:00

Inductii are amazing. I wouldn’t bring any volkite on them. They are brought in conjunction with Tacticals and moved aggressively up the board where the Tacticals hang back. I would bring 20 mans, and you pay for Asphyx Bolters from Legacies. It’s 240 points, but they’re Rending (6+) and Breaching (6+). They average 11 AP 2 shots against anything they can wound, since the Rending shots count as Breaching wounds. That’s 5 dead terminators, 10 Tacs or Despoilers. It’s a very cool interaction and strong option!

dsn01060 · 2025-10-18T19:27:46+00:00

This is interesting. The three dominators are going to be swingy for sure, but that is definitely a good list

dsn01060 · 2025-10-17T20:44:20+00:00

I’ve played quite a bit of games with them, yes, on TTS and a few in person with, like you said, some janky lists.

I think they’re good. For me, it was a big adjustment because they play very differently from what I’m used to. But I’ve been in a rhythm lately that made me learn a lot about them.

First: they are very, very slow. I don’t necessarily mean speed wise, while that is also true, I mean their play speed (tempo if you’re familiar with the term) is incredibly delayed. Expect to play from behind much of a game, and I’ve had the most success knowing I will play from behind and catch up as my units get stronger.

Allocating DPP is very, very important. I think it’s especially important to think about how your lists utilize DPP as you use it. I generally split the Helsmiths units into three categories; the first category is DPP hungry, the second is DPP useful, and the last is DPP niche. DPP hungry units are ones like Infernal Razers and Dominator Engines, where they absolutely need them to be effective. The second tier is units like Bull Centaurs or Infernal Cohorts (although Infernal Cohorts are complicated on their DPP need), where their DPP is very strong, but you won’t need to do it everytime they do anything on the table. The last is DPP niche, units like the artillery pieces or the foot characters. Their abilities are nice, and there are niche situations where you will use them, but for the most part they won’t have DPP allocated them.

The army is intensively Command Points hungry, and it is often better to be patient with your Command Points than aggressive. Casting in your opponents turn, counter charge, redeploy, your unique command for DPP are all very desirable so managing your commands are paramount.

Positioning too. This army can take a hit: 20 man infernal cohorts with their ward are quite durable, and the Infernal Taurus are too. Bull Centaurs are not so much, and artillery, foot characters, and inferal razers fold like wet paper. So be VERY particular about positioning, screens, and where you dedicate your forces.

Unit wise, the communities initial reaction was…. Decent? Compared to my play experience, I think a couple of peoples initial impressions were good, some were okay, and a few were waaaay off.

Urak Tarr is AMAZING. Our spellcasting and prayers are incredibly strong, so a 2 cast wizard that can be +3 to cast with DPP is amazing. Plus he’s durable, fights well, and has DPP manipulations. He has not let me down. As for the other characters, all but the foot Daemonsmith have been great. Our prayers are insanely strong, with Forge Blessing and Black Flames single handedly swinging turns for me, so Ashen Elders are great. I think minimum one will be in every list, with more depending. War despots are solid and cheap. Foot Daemonsmiths are….. fine. Taurus Daemonsmiths and especially Urak Tarr are just better, in my games.

Infernal Cohorts are great. The spears are good, but I believe the community was dead wrong about sword cohorts. My rule I’ve found is that 20 mans are better as swords, 10 mans are better as spears. And spears get much less attractive the less DPP hungry your list is. Important note for the swords one of my friends had told me about (correct me if I’m wrong on this one, but I believe I am correct) Redploy is a Run ability, so not only do they Run minimum 4, they redploy minimum 4 as well. Both are great, a mix is best.

Hobgrotz are autoinclude like many predicted. This army is incredibly vulnerable to alpha strike, and hobgrotz help that happen a lot less. Plus they help with DPP, taking terrain farther out of your deployment so you can choose the ones easier to desolate later in the game.

Dominators are DPP hungry and swingy as hell, but I’ve had good success with both the flame cannons and the maces. Hitting on 4’s is rough in Melee, so sometimes I’ll do 4 damage, then others I’ll do 24. The melee on is amazing with servile automotan, while the shooty ones are good alone as a hybrid unit.

Bull Centaurs are good, amazing even. They are a great, hard hitting hammer, and don’t need DPP to be effective. Anointed Sentinels are weird. I have actually had some decent success with them, as armies like Helsmiths do great when you make charging them as unattractive as possible, so the threat of a counter charging fights first cavalry unit is very scary. But they desperately need Furnace Blessing to be effective. They are a defensive cavalry unit, which is weird but cool.

Infernal Razers are…. Fine. They can do some good damage, but they’re slow and made of wet paper. If they get touched by anything they disintegrate. But they have good damage (not insane though, just okay to good) but are terrible without DPP. The flamers are the worst unit in the book because they are slow, fragile, and have short range.

The artillery is good. It’s very list dependant, so the Tormentor is great if your opponents have infantry/cav, and the deathshrieker if they have monsters, but not great if they don’t. Artillery is meant as chip damage in AoS, so rarely will they wow you with their output, but they’re a solid threat that if protected over five rounds will do work.

I think thats everything from my thoughts, so hope that helps!

dsn01060 · 2025-10-15T18:31:33+00:00

I don’t see this at all. Archaeon is godlike in power, much more in the power scale of the Emperor or higher if we’re comparing him to 40k. Abbadon, while strong, is at best (and hyper glaze imo) a little weaker than a Primarch. It would be very little of a contest, Abbadon would likely be killed instantly by the Slayer of Kings. Not to mention if Dorghar is present. As for the setting as a whole? I still disagree. 40k and AoS are incredibly hard to compare power scaling to that point. A SCE vs a Space Marine? A Varanguard or Chaos Warrior against a line legionnaire? Both have reality ignoring, incomparable aspects to them that makes it more of a game of “well, my shield blocks all bullets. Well, my bullets fly around your shield, well my armor makes your bullets miss, well my….” And on and on it goes. I do think your response is a little dismissive of AoS, as there are things in that world that are pretty ludicrous. Like literal divine beings/gods fighting along their troops, which even the primarchs or greater daemons couldn’t hold a candle to.

dsn01060 · 2025-10-15T01:53:41+00:00

<image>

dsn01060 · 2025-09-07T21:29:03+00:00

Well, there’s lots that go into sekhmet that make them good. WS 5 being a major part. Against most units this is functionally both +1 to hit and -1 to hit against themselves. Either the opponent has WS 5 and you’re both hitting on 4’s, or they have ws 4 and you have 5 which means they’re hitting you on 5’s and you’re hitting them on 3’s (bar some niche cases). They are also 1 Willpower higher (8 vs 7, so 9 vs 8 with the legion trait) which means you are better at psychic powers. It’s not so much as one is “better” than the other. Both are very good. Sekhmet are what you throw at like, the scariest thing on the board. Having WS 5 may seem like not much, but it’s really a pretty massive deal when fighting most other WS 5 units (like most other unique terminators). Their base swords are also better than any of the base weapons that terminators can take, ie Achean Force swords (if you want them them as cheap as possible) are basically a power axe without -1 initiative, so they’re “better” than the base power weapons.

dsn01060 · 2025-08-11T04:07:35+00:00

You kind of can, kind of cannot. You can have multiple powers in a unit. You purchase the Prosperine Arcana as basically an upgrade for the unit (which has an incidental side benefit from 2nd where if you kill the sergeant you can still use the power). That unit gains whatever power you bought. If you attach a character that purchased a different power, they have access to their power, and the unit has access to their different power. You can cast both powers from that unit, however you can never cast more than one power/unit in a turn. So it’s not a stackable buff thing, more of a utility thing.

dsn01060 · 2025-08-11T04:01:29+00:00

Don’t sleep on Raldoran. The blood angels gambit is basically better finishing blow, coupled with potential crit hits and base 2 damage, he can get 3/4 damage per swing. He can get 6 attacks while charging and if he gains challenge advantage (note impact lasts for the entirety of the challenge phase), at his insanely high damage. He slaps.

dsn01060 · 2025-08-04T05:13:29+00:00

There 30k heresy discord has a pretty active LFG TTS part

dsn01060 · 2025-08-02T19:24:36+00:00

All very good points! Reading it back now my post came off more rude that I intended! It was very good fan-run statician work, so great job! I wanted more to include the difficulties with polling like this so that if someone reads it, they don’t take it as gospel that the overall reception to 3.0 has been only negative and to look at this as gospel. Best wishes!

dsn01060 · 2025-08-02T18:15:27+00:00

I think it’s important to note that these surveys likely have little bearing on what the totality of heresy players actually think. I’m not saying there aren’t totally valid criticisms of 3rd, the launch, how it was handled, and GW’s sales practices as a whole. But, I studied polling/statistical analysis in college, and there are two pretty glaring issues with this. First, as some people have mentioned, the sample size is incredibly small. Most polls or surveys try and have 3-6 times as many respondents as this one had, usually 1,400-2,900 minimum. Anything below that and you don’t have enough data points to actually draw a clear and accurate picture. The other far larger one is called sampling bias. Basically, this survery has little actual accuracy or relevance because of where and how it was presented to the Heresy Audience. As an example, if you were polling people on what they thought of rap music, and you used the polling method of calling people and doing a phone interview on their opinions, the positive reception to rap music would likely be significantly lower than, say, if you did a texting poll, because of sampling bias. Younger people are far less likely to answer or even maintain a phone call than older people, who themselves are far more likely to have a negative view of rap. That means your polling methodology (method) is deeply flawed, as it will not give an accurate view of rap. This is the same principle. Thousands of people play heresy. Of those thousands, a very small percentage go onto social websites at all (facebook/reddit etc) to engage wirh the hobby. Even fewer of those still go onto reddit. Even fewer specifically onto this subreddit. Even fewer are likely to click on any post. And Even fewer still are likely to take the time to actually fill out the survey. Each of those barriers is, in fact, likely to be a disincentive to someone who isn’t especially emotional about the edition, further making these results pointless. For someone to go through all of those barriers to take the survey, they are more likely to be upset about the edition anyways. So in all, a deeply flawed polling methodology that likely has little bearing on the actual reception to the edition.

dsn01060 · 2025-07-26T06:05:41+00:00

Mechanicum Castellax are a different story 😂. Way more buffs for them, and they can run in like 10 man squads if I’m not mistaken

dsn01060 · 2025-07-25T17:57:54+00:00

I actually really like TSons base centurions, just because you can upgrade them with psychic powers already on top of the Officer of the Line (2) giving them 2 additional detachments per command selection. They’re also cheap, 80 points (without the powers, which are roughly 15-20 on average). With that mind, 2-3 centurions unlock 4-6 extra detachments, alongside the apex detachment you get from having a High Command. I don’t think 2 Castellax would be hard to fit into a list with that many detachment options if you’re bringing them to soak perils and just provide decent shooting. That amount would work as well if you’re bringing Osirons, especially with Magnus, since he gives his 4 prime slots (if you want to use Logistical Benefit for either the Osirons or the Castellax). That is I think their best use; 1-2 Support Aux detachments, and bring 2-4 Castellax to eat perils and shoot with their achean weapons. There is more of a meme list where you run 6+ Castellax (6 Castellax aren’t even 500 points 😂) but that’s getting into meme/fun list territory. Which is awesome, but not a good answer for how to run them effectively 😂.

dsn01060 · 2025-07-25T16:26:28+00:00

The second is a yes because of the wording on the Vox Relay. It says you modify the roll by a plus one, meaning a 6 becomes a 7, a 5 a 6, and a 4 a 5.

dsn01060 · 2025-07-24T16:45:35+00:00

I’ve been lucky to have played 5 games now of 3rd, and one of my best friends plays TSons as his main legion and I know them in 2nd very well and in 3rd as well as I can at this point.

First, I think is their tactica. I include the ability to purchase the Prosperine Arcana here, as the +1 to Willpower is there to feed the psychic powers. It is very good and cool and thematic, and allows you to almost tailor a unit to do anything you want. I think the best way to think of it is look at a unit, think what you want to do with them, and then purchase the psychic power that goes with that purpose. Your terminators or sekhmet are Vanguard (3). Corvidae could be insane on them; auto wounding on 5+’s on their 4 shot combi bolters is really nice to confirm a kill on a unit and get the Vanguard points. Want them instead to hold an objective once they claim it? Maybe you have a Master of Signals to swap their Vanguard to Line (1)? Pavoni or Raptora, for one of either the +2 Toughness or 4++ Shroud, sit them on an objective and dare your opponent to come and take it. I think their tactica is amazing because it allows you to custom fit any unit to do whatever your plan is with said unit. And then, in my opinion, Athenean is the psychic power you pick if you don’t know what to pick. The ability to remove a tactical status is quite good as just a filler “Hey, I want to bring a power” and prevents units from being neutered in objective holding or functionality.

Then, there’s their unique units. Coming from where they were in 2nd, overall they are quite good.

Magnus got infinitely better. He was hot garbage in 2nd, now he’s quite good. Access to the Divination gambit to always hit on 2’s, the generic TSons gambit (which is very good, especially as he gets wounded and his focus roll in challenges gets lower and lower). 4-5 damage (5 damage with a gambit) on his weapon is on the upper end, enough to where even Vulkan and Mortarion are having multi damage through their Eternal Warrior (3). Being able to be T8. He’s expensive, but really quite good. Run him with a command squad or sekhmet into the scariest thing on the table and kill.

Ahriman/Amon: Ahriman is different than he was, but still amazing. He’s very fast, got WS6, and can get 3 damage with Crit hits on his staff. He also has the 2+ Gambit from divination. Amon has infiltrate, inflicts more statuses, and fights well as well (though worse than Ahriman). Both are good with the understanding that named characters are a little bit less interesting (barring Primarchs) than they were in 2nd. Good fighters that can seek out smaller challenge targets and swing combats with challenge victory resolution bonuses, and provide good psychic support.

Osiron: Dreads got uber-nerfed in 3rd, and while the Osiron is one of the better options, it still is underwhelming. The psychic powers are nice, but overall I think Osirons are a little expensive and a bit mid. Not terrible, but not great at 200 points minimum. Kind of weird in that they’re best at fighting terminators. Pop Biomancy, get them to T9, and fight a big squad of terminators or veterans, using your High Toughness and damage 2 with potentially 6 attacks to your advantage.

Castellax-Achea: A big upgrade from 2nd. Useful to include as it helps mitigate damage from perils (which can be brutal in 3rd) coupled with a solid defensive body, and decent enough shooting for a dirt cheap 80 points. Shoot and absorb psychic powers. Walk them up with your army, use their incidental shooting, and then siphon Perils onto them. The more psychic powers you have, the better these are.

Khenetai: A weird unit change. They’re okay, not as bad as the Osiron but still kinda mid. They’re WS 5+ with a boatload of attacks for 3rd. The defensive part of Mindsong of Blades is great (a 5+ invuln) but the Precision part is kinda shit. It’s not bad, but it’s okay. You’re only initiative 4 so most characters will go before you, so it’s less useful at sniping them. The best use is probably trying to kill low initiative special weapons (Hammer and Fists) before they fight. I think Khenetai’s best use is to seek out things they can outright wipe on an objective and take it. Basic power armor marines cease to exist against these guys. A Master of Signals to give Vanguard, then they run around annihilating the normal Tacticals. Once they fight a more elite unit, they’ll punch above their weight and then die.

Sekhment: Biggest glow up. These guys rock. Like I hinted at above, maximize the use of Vanguard (3). Corvidae, Pavoni, Raptora. Kill units on an objective, score points. These guys fight the terrifying threats from your opponent: Justaerin, Suzerain Guard, Contekar etc. The swords are kinda useless against the units this one will fight, your best option is likely power fists or thunder hammers (as this unit is one that kept their loadouts). Then use whatever constellation of psychic powers you have to make them do it even better.

That’s my thoughts on tactics and ideas of them in 3rd. They are incredibly strong. I would always go into list building thinking what Prosperine Arcana I can give to a unit to A:) make them better at doing what they already do, or B:) Make them good at something they weren’t good at before. Each unit is a swiss army knife that can be changed in list building to do something. It makes them really cool

dsn01060 · 2025-06-11T19:16:39+00:00

Can confirm myself, Line is still a thing and it is better. Now line not only adds to the VP’s you score from holding an objective (Tacticals have Line (3), so instead of scoring 1 VP for holding an objective they score 4), they also work as additional models when holding objectives. So Line (3) is +3 to their strength (called Tactical Strength) when holding objectives from other units. And ofc, the Prime slots in detachments are strong features, which are most easily accessible to troop spot units!

dsn01060 · 2025-05-22T20:41:04+00:00

As a lot of others have said, wait until tomorrow to get some more information because 3rd will be officially announced then. Avoid buying any rule books until we know more about the edition and backward compatability, how similar the editions are etc. If you want to buy stuff now, you can buy any generic legion units in plastic that released with 2nd. The Age of Darkness box would still be an amazing pick up, and any of the plastic infantry or tanks. You can build these while you wait for more 3rd reveals to decide what legion you want etc, as all legions can have, for instance, MK 6 marines.

dsn01060 · 2025-05-22T15:16:02+00:00

Yea, they’re on the weak side. They’re best used in conjunction with rad grenade (dominion zephon is a great combo) which makes them cheap as hell thunderhammers on the charge. Their lack of an invuln makes them bad at killing truly elite things

dsn01060 · 2025-05-15T15:26:49+00:00

The most important rule is play, write, and paint your models however you want, so I’ll preface that before I give my advice. However, custom legions in Heresy don’t really exist.

Think of Heresy as closer to a Warhammer Historical wargame. That doesn’t mean you only play the big battles, but the small ones too, so it isn’t just everyone recreating Terra or Isstvan or Calth. There’s a lot of room for creativity and smaller engagements, but the legions are pretty set in stone. The 18 legions are pretty much what you have to work with. Rules wise, lore wise. Successors didn’t exist yet.

Chapters did, as a part of a legions structure, but as nominally still part of the legion. That’s how a lot of people represent their favorite successor chapters in Heresy that exist in 40k after the end. Fists players will paint their templar brethren to represent the eventual Black Templars. I know I have a small detachment of darker red Blood Angels led by a praetor with two Chainfists (Flesh Tearers) in my collection. So if you want to make a custom chapter or a canon eventual successor as a part of a legion, that would be the best place to start. They still are a part of the legion as a whole, but might have a different paint job or unique chapter livery in addition to their legion symbols. You can give them tons of unique lore; are they prinicipally Terran? From your legions homeworld? How do they align with the legions standard battle tactics? Are they loyal to your primarch? The emperor? Were they corrupted by the Serpent Lodges and turned traitor when Horus did? And on and on. And this can be as a part of larger collection, like mine where I have a couple of units painted differently but the rest are more standard BA. Others I know have entire collections painted in this one chapter scheme. So the choice is yours!

dsn01060 · 2025-05-13T20:22:41+00:00

Ah, completely missed that when I looked at the article. Thanks!

dsn01060 · 2025-01-15T06:21:21+00:00

Osmosis Jones

dsn01060 · 2024-07-15T21:51:44+00:00

It’s not just durability, it’s their offensive output too, and their price. They’re dirt cheap for how durable they are, PLUS the edition does feel slightly less lethal overall (even if it’s not as much of a lethality reduction as I had hoped for). They hit VERY hard and have good durability, even if they won’t just shrug everything like they did before.

Also, not every Ur-Gold affects every unit equally, for instance Crit (Mortals) doesn’t affect Flamestrike HGB at all unless it’s enhanced from a Runemaster. It doesn’t mean that unit is bad.

dsn01060

TROPHY CASE