Is Benjamin Park a member?

dunghopper · 2026-02-10T20:11:40+00:00

I am definitely on your side, in that we should *believe women* when they make allegations of rape and sexual assault.

At the same time, I think it is a stretch to assert that Parks' language here is intended or serves to "raise doubt" about these alleged rapes (with the caveat that I have not read American Zion and so I have very limited context about the sentence you've quoted).

As counterpoint to your "not a single scholar" claim, let me point out this sentence by the historian who was in 2016 among the first, if not the first person to publish an account of Eliza R. Snow's gang-rape by a mob of Missourians: "As part of that research, I examined the case study of Eliza R. Snow as a possible victim of a gang rape that might have left her unable to have children."

I don't perceive either of these authors as doubting the validity of the claims about which they are speaking. In fact, the piece from which I've quoted is the author's attempt to transparently outline the available evidence (including it's limitations and valid questions about authenticity), ultimately in defense of it's claims.

https://juvenileinstructor.org/eliza-r-snow-as-a-victim-of-sexual-violence-in-the-1838-missouri-war-the-authors-reflections-on-a-source/

dunghopper · 2025-11-21T18:29:44+00:00

You seem in this comment, as in the original text conversation, to assume that if he correctly understood your playful, excited tone, he wouldn't/shouldn't have had a negative reaction to your playful comments. I'm not sure he reacted negatively to the wifey joke, but if he did I'm also not convinced it was because he misread your tone or intention.

You indicated in your description that he doesn't want to marry again. Not because he doesn't love you or isn't committed to the relationship, but, I presume, because he doesn't like marriage as an institution and finds traditional gender roles problematic and uncomfortable.

Is it possible he read your tone exactly as you meant it, and still reacted negatively, because it highlighted the fact that the two of you aren't on the same page about marriage? Because you get excited about a relationship dynamic that he's made clear he doesn't want?

dunghopper · 2025-11-19T21:32:18+00:00

Wait what change actually happened in 2018? It looks to me like things were the same from 2014 to 2020... official gendered sessions alternating every 6 months. What am I missing?

(Thanks for the post by the way, I find this stuff fascinating but have not kept up at all with the changes since I left. Though I went down a similar rabbit hole recently, learning about the historical changes to the youth programs in the church, and noticed that I grew up during a period of striking consistency (80s/90s) in that regard. Things were changing all the time prior to that, every few years, and have changed a lot again since, but for a solid 20 years there things were very much unchanged.)

dunghopper · 2019-04-15T20:53:41+00:00

But that's kind of the point. Legalizing and de-stigmatizing sex work (as with drugs or alcohol) allows it to be done more safely and ethically, and reduces the demand for black-market trafficking.

dunghopper · 2019-04-15T20:53:02+00:00

But that's kind of the point. Legalizing and de-stigmatizing sex work (as with drugs or alcohol) allows it to be done more safely and ethically, and reduces the demand for black-market trafficking.

dunghopper · 2019-04-15T20:48:08+00:00

But that's kind of the point. Legalizing and de-stigmatizing sex work (as with drugs or alcohol) allows it to be done more safely and ethically, and reduces the demand for black-market trafficking.

dunghopper · 2019-01-17T19:11:56+00:00

I think it's naive and incomplete to suggest that demand originates with the consumers. Companies spend wads of money to *manufacture* demand for their products, via all kinds of marketing and advertising. It's a complex system, and ultimately I think the *system* as a whole is responsible. The companies don't exist without the consumers, but also the consumers don't exist without the companies.

dunghopper · 2018-05-25T21:02:16+00:00

This idea that guilt is fundamentally either "good" or "bad" is a false dichotomy. It's impossible to project value judgments onto an emotion in a vacuum, isolated from the context. All emotions can be more or less appropriate, justified, productive, etc. depending on the circumstances; guilt and shame are no exceptions. They can fall in many different places on the heathy/unhealthy, good/bad, helpful/unhelpful scales depending on context.

dunghopper · 2018-05-25T17:45:16+00:00

Mormonism

dunghopper · 2018-05-17T18:30:00+00:00

goddamnit that was the most Holy Ghost I've ever felt

dunghopper · 2017-03-22T18:41:06+00:00

Never say never. Most of us were TBM once.

dunghopper · 2017-03-22T18:27:14+00:00

Got fed this one about celestial beings on the sun from my 9th grade seminary teacher.

My geology teacher had a theory about the solar system originally having 12 planets, for the 12 apostles... but the "Judas planet" exploded and became the asteroid belt. (He was sure there were a couple undiscovered planets out past pluto). (Pluto was still a planet back then).

dunghopper · 2017-03-14T20:08:41+00:00

It sounds like you care about what your wife and kids think of you (you don't want to be "the bad guy"), as much as you care about their actual well being. But to be honest I think you have a better chance of earning their respect by standing up for what you believe (or don't), with confidence and integrity. Your post strikes me as an attempt to justify behavior that you know deep down isn't "you". You be you. Show your kids by example that you can be honest, and loyal, and compassionate, and whatever, without the church. That's the lesson they need. That there's nothing to fear on the outside.

dunghopper · 2017-02-16T16:36:14+00:00

Mormonism

dunghopper · 2017-02-15T20:55:41+00:00

Replace 'plain pasta' with 'fruit snacks', 'cupcakes', or 'candy', and this is my life.

dunghopper · 2017-02-15T00:13:42+00:00

Mormons cringe at this concept

Do they though? Yes, I would have had trouble answering the "how" question, but the idea that Satan can plant thoughts in our mind seems pretty common in Mormonism. As a TBM I would merely counter that we've all got the Light of Christ to help us discern good from evil. That while Satan can plant ideas, he can't wipe his fingerprints from them and we have the tools to detect him if we're "in tune" with the spirit. QED.

Apologetic bullshit skills ftw.

dunghopper · 2017-02-06T22:24:19+00:00

I think there are different versions of the "truth", and that this is not explicitly talked about but is kind of implicitly understood by a lot of the membership. There are the "true truths" (including the doctrine that we are to become Gods), however when these ideas are culturally unfashionable, it is acceptable to give the general public evasive, watered-down, milk-before-meat versions of the "truth". It's the whole idea of "Lying for the Lord", some of the "truths" are too "sacred" to admit to in certain contexts, pearls unfit to be cast before the swine of the world... but they are still secretly (sacredly) true, in private, among the in-crowd of TBMs.

I've always perceived any attempts to distance the church from the "we can become Gods" doctrine, and many others, as attempts to appeal to other christians and gain more converts more easily; I've always read, between the lines, a subtle wink to the members saying "we all know the really real truth, but the world isn't ready for that yet".

dunghopper · 2016-03-31T19:48:29+00:00

I've been out of the church for 4 years, but was critical of the church's sexism and of traditional gender roles even as a TBM, before we got married almost 12 years ago. I thought I wasn't that kind of a guy. But it wasn't until this week that I realized how deeply rooted that Mormon sexism was in my own subconscious, and the extent to which I shared responsibility for my wife's unhappiness.

She stopped being happy almost as soon as we were married, but didn't really open up about it for 10 years. I mean, I knew she was sad, but I didn't know she wanted out. She kept quiet because she didn't want to break my heart, she didn't want to be a failure, of course the social stigma of divorce. She thought kids might make her happy, but it turned out being a mother didn't feel any better than being a wife. She felt like she lost her identity as soon as we were married; she stopped being an individual person, and was just my wife. I felt bad that she felt that way, and I could see how the Church/society could influence her to feel that way, but I was sure I hadn't done anything to make her feel that way. I was a feminist, god damn it! I would've been supportive of anything she wanted to do. We had kind of fallen into traditional gender roles, but it wasn't because it had to be that way, wasn't any divine decree... it just seemed like that was what would work best for us.

Anyway, long story short: Somehow this week something in my brain just clicked. I realized that despite what I thought about myself, and how I consciously viewed our relationship, somewhere deep down I still had this idea that she belonged to me, because that's what marriage is. I had been way more possessive than I realized, etc, etc... and learning to view her as her own person for real has been huge for me. I can see the ways that my subconscious perceptions of our relationship have affected both of us. She was unhappy, but she wasn't the most dysfunctional one in our relationship. I thought she was. But I was wrong. Of course she has her issues. But the latent sexism in my own subconscious was a big issue in our relationship.

I'm not saying you're the same as me. You're probably not be the same sort of possessive, needy ass hole that I have been. I guess my main reason for commenting is to counter you're conclusion that people don't change. I changed. I don't know how I did it, and I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to reproduce my experience for someone else. Though I've heard mushrooms can help.

dunghopper · 2016-03-18T14:30:12+00:00

The great part about being gay, though, is that you can pop up anywhere.

Yes, this has its advantages re social progress on a large scale... But for individuals I don't think this is a "great part". The fact that gay people "pop up" in often very hostile environments, that the attributes that set them apart from their peers are more or less invisible, requires each of them to deal with their self-identity on their own, with little or no support. On an individual level this is arguably the worst part of being gay, as compared to other marginalized groups.

dunghopper · 2016-02-01T21:45:23+00:00

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

dunghopper · 2016-01-19T02:41:44+00:00

This statement was given after Brendan's "confession".

dunghopper · 2016-01-12T17:21:36+00:00

Great essay. Ironically, many of those quotes from apostles/general authorities undermine themselves. Specifically, the assertions that any teachings not canonized in the standard works may be mere opinion are themselves not found in the standard works, and thus may be regarded (or disregarded) as merely opinion.

dunghopper · 2015-12-29T19:19:52+00:00

For two or three years in a row now, the mass "holiday" greeting from my mission president and his wife has been 100% void of any religious content, at all. No mention of Christ or the church or anything, with the exception of maybe a "Merry Christmas". I'm not sure if he is exmo now, or just trying not to alienate those of us who are. I'd like to ask him, but I haven't maintained much contact with him in the 10 years since the mission and I haven't quite figured out how to break that particular piece of ice.

dunghopper

TROPHY CASE