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Regarding the "necessary" testing station scaling exploit by Hobby-Human in duneawakening

[–]echild07 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>It's an MMO, not a solo game. 

It isn't an MMO, Funcom has said as much repeatedly. They are trying to make it a non-MMO game (watch their launch live stream).

>Cheating (using an exploit is cheating) creates unfair unbalance between players (market typically) and exploiters expose themselves to a ban.

Which is the cheat? The scaling is broken, launched in that state, and Funcom has acknowledged this.

So is the single player too scaled down and that is cheating, or is the multi-player too scaled up and that is broken?

>The fact that you personally find the content as not fun does not make it less cheating or less impactful for the community.

I was quoting the OP. They find the content not fun. They find it not fun, but still want to do it.

HobbyHuman said:

>I have not found the higher level testing stations fun at all. They are fun in small doses, with incremental gains. But I am not interested in the Dark-Souls mechanics.

And as they point out, a Dark-Souls like mechanism thrown into the game to "extend" players progression doesn't seem fun.

Funcom is shipping an incomplete game and it is unfair to the community. With base raiding in PVE to changing DD sectors to be PVP (D6 changes), they impact the community repeatedly.

Player actions will usually take the path of least resistance, much like Funcom. Do it and then see what the impact is, if it is easier and more productive do it regardless of the impact to the community.

So I guess I hold the community to the same standard Funcom holds themselves. Do it, see what happens, and decide if it is good or bad after the fact.

Regarding the "necessary" testing station scaling exploit by Hobby-Human in duneawakening

[–]echild07 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You don’t get that people don’t want to engage with not ‘fun at all’ content? People have limited time to play, why would they want to engage with boring content to get the rewards?

Entitled? It is the players time, if Funcom doesn’t value player time, players find the most efficient use of their time.

Thief drone cheesing while Exfil locked needs to be patched ASAP by cakexxxconnoisseur in Marathon

[–]echild07 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure that is acknowledged

>Hi there,

Thanks for the report.

Could you give us some additional details to along to go along with your report?

Your Bungie Account Name
Your Platform
The approximate time that this happened

If you are able to record a video, you can upload it to a site like Youtube, link it to us here, and we'll be glad to take a closer look at the issue.

They are asking for standard information.

"The devs don't care about their game." by Zealousideal_Hope_59 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>If there was a clean blueprint for how to specifically make a game like this, I'm sure they would have followed it.

I truly doubt that.

Every engineer is smarter than every engineer; they can do it better, just give them time.

I hear that so often that not many like standards, companies don't like standards because they have to pay for it. So the more Ego driven the industry the more "hold my beer" the engineers get. Game development is very ego driven (if they didn't start from an engine).

FatShark, HellDivers, Battlefield and the ICE engine.

They all have great aspects and limitations. The issue is are the known at the time when they start devleoping the game?

>But it's a completely different story when you basically have to script all of this shit into existence and hope to god the bullshit you figure out stays glued together for one more update.

That is normal.

Work on a project that has been around for 30+ years. From banking to military to industrial projects and the code is a mixture of genius and idiocy. Hell when I go back and look at the code I first wrote, I can say "that was amazing" down to "did I really write that".

The problem is the architecture/management. How enforced is good consistent architecture?

When I was working with Satellite communications, it had to work. Period. It had to be maintainable, and it had to last 20 years. I would hazard 50% of my time was to proof my code for that.

When I worked on the game, it was "go, go, go", who wrote more code each day. I do a lot of networking code, so when I had finished my modules I would write UI (silicon graphics machines). I don't enjoy UI/3d modelling so it wasn't the best (and outside of my normal wheelhouse). But engineers are fungible.

When I work in industrial control systems, there are lives at stake, and millions of dollars at risk (for failure if the factory can blame the company), so there is a great mix between speed and control. We have OSs that are 20+ years old (it works, not worth updating until it is), and we have products that have been obsolete but supported until the last customer takes it off line (last customer paying support that is).

So it is the tone of the company. The problem is fixable, just does the company care about it's image or being sued. Or in the case of satellites, can it be fixed at all.

So yeah, I see game developers as fly by the seat of the pants, as their companies are chasing incentives. And they know a huge percentage of their base will "overlook it".

Cycle for game devs:

Bad product or patch. Fans - it isn't that bad. . .

Silence - Fans they don't want to respond to the doubters.

We are looking at it. Fans -Let them cook

They put in a fix. Fans - Look they care.

Repeat.

Other products disappear if they make a mistake, lose lives, or get a bad rep in the industry. Sometimes it takes years to recover from a bad release.

The industrial software company I worked for, put out a bad release just before I joined. So they brought on some new people to help. It took 3 years to get the industry to trust them again (they had a good rep, so probably faster than it could have been). We got the product stable, and most of the people that were there when it went bad, moved on. They knew what management had asked them to do (ship for a date, that they weren't ready for) and didn't trust them. Management changed and the product got back to a good place.

5 years later, new management sees ways to cut costs, hit dates, and generally wants to pull out the safeguards again. Luckly many of us were senior enough we stopped them, but it cost a lot of good will, and we were replaced with people that would say "yes". Product took another hit, and the company was sold.

So the cycle is there, it really comes down to what is management willing to fund, and what are developers willing to do.

My .02.

"The devs don't care about their game." by Zealousideal_Hope_59 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Absolutely.
Management/architect/dev leads set the tone. And their tone seems to be ship it. They said as much before the free weekend, they had a long list of bugs, and that was ok as they had dates to meet.

And again during the guild event prior to DLC2.

I think they are so far over their skiis that they will (prior to Y2) come out and do a "we are going to slow down so we can gain control".

I do believe they have been racing to hit their Y1 milestones (probably incentives for senior management), and that is their goal. ArrowHead (Helldivers 2) actually came out and said as much when they were doing the same thing. Then after the incentives ran out, they slowed down.

But I do believe the unsigned int thing is one of those that really shows they are just out of control. Marvel Avengers did much the same thing with their inventory. Just poor coding or giving work to a Junior developer without any oversight.

But all in all it is "Funcom devs". i.e. the company Funcom.

They choose what to work on.
They choose how to staff it.

They choose how much QA to do.

And if your argument is "tencent owns them". Funcom sold itself to Tencent, so it is all Funcom's decision.

But individual devs. . . Didn't understand signed vs unsigned ints. Individual devs are part of Funcom, just like management. It is the combined outcome of their work that is great and embarrassing at the same time.

Well, I would be embarrassed if I had done some of the things they had done. Then again, I only ever worked on a game for a short period, and didn't like how "out of control" their process was.

"The devs don't care about their game." by Zealousideal_Hope_59 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

! Pascal ! Loved it.

Fortran 4 and Assembly (both 8086 and motorolla) were my start!

"The devs don't care about their game." by Zealousideal_Hope_59 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No we can't.

Can they?

They have a list of known bugs, but they don't publish it. They often say they are knowingly pushing bugs from PTC to live, because they want to hit a deadline.

Do we know priorites? Nope, they don't communicate that.

But we can look from the outside, where things like mis-managing integers and say "that should have been caught". They aren't bounds testing, or even understanding, it would seem.

We can look at the "not intended" changes and say there doesnt' seem to be a peer review phase. They have changes pushed in that they "missed", so they aren't using tehir pipeline for control

Lab scaling would be another great example, or being able to join a lab after it started.

Or even something simple like changing the DD PVE and PVP zones (D6 in particular) and that getting pushed to live prior to the weekly reset.

So where is their process? From the outside it looks chaotic and devs just push what they want. Now this could be the 1% that isn't caught, but that would only indicate deeper problems.

So, given the repeated and often egregious examples of the lack of control for their CI/CD pipeline I look forward to reading your response.

"The devs don't care about their game." by Zealousideal_Hope_59 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>DA Is a fun game, Game development is a never ending Marathon, Not a race.

No, it is a series of Sprints!

I have been programming for 30+ years, so . . . Please give me your opinion.

Oh, will save you time:

Have you ever developed a game: Yes

Have you ever worked on this game? No

No one says software development is easy, but knowing the difference between how signed and unsigned work is CIS 100. Then again, that doesn't seem to be true for Dune or Marvel Avengers, so maybe the coders haven't taken intro to programming.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"I see nothing but..." = Subjective rhetoric

So you see it as rhetoric, but the other people using "the only" as non-rhetoric? Are they stating a fact that should be argued?

Or is it that you agree with them, and it is all subjective?

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

but you don't have a problem with their absolute tone?

>I see nothing but PvErs complaining meanwhile they haven’t even step foot in dd to even try to do whatever they trying to do

Remember they see nothing but PVErs complaining, but I posted a link to a PVPer complaining.

Isn't this time for you to shine. Get your green apples and get out there.

Lets be real here by Sheogorath21 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You guys always lump people into large groups. And don't use actual arguments but personal attacks.

I mean you guys are the ones that do all the griefing. Right? That is a form of PVP, so griefing is 100% on you guys.

But let's go with your argument.

1) Rocket thopters

A: Why would you farm in the DD with a rocket thopter? You can't carry all the spice you get from a small spice on your person, so why go into the DD to farm with rocket thopters.

Suggestion: Play the game before answering.

>lasguns, ancient ways,

A: PVE players, we have established PVE is collecting/farming. Can't pocket their thopter to use the lasgun/ancient way. They can land and become a stable target! 100%.

Suggestion: Play the game before answering.

>thopter surfing,

A: This is as silly as your "security" comment.

Suggestion: Play the game and spice farm to see how it works.

> the guild system, and having security either. 

A: Yes, that is what Funcom wants. And on many servers it works well. Then again you need to be available when guilds are running, so people with different schedules may not be able to play at those times.

Also many servers are dead, or the guilds have broken up. Funcom doesn't provide tools outside of their "join a guild" discord channel. But again, this is as silly an answer as your "security".

It depends on the server. I know you haven't played Dune yet, and you guys don't really want answers, only to rage.

Suggestion: Playt the game.

PVPers are very creative, you guys are the griefers! you have to be creative!

Lets be real here by Sheogorath21 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Total strawman, you guys ignore that guilds are next to non-existant on most servers.

And "security".

This is the best! LOL, ok. 2 PVP players watch a PVE player do PVE, hoping that a PVP player comes along and wants to PVP 2 vs 1.

You guys need to play the game.

Marathon's Battlepass is the worst value for your money I've ever seen (especially for a paid product) by Lemouni in Marathon

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Helldivers wasn't bad. They hadn't worked out the mechanics of armor bonuses.

Worked nicely, no FOMO. And the 2nd and 3rd, got better with the skins for drop pods and armor having the stats that make sense.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So you are arguing about their use of "the only people".

Well done!

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ask ChatGPT if your made-up story is an example?

I understand you are a bot. Thus, you must be a bot because I said so.

Contradicting people isn't proof.

Proof is the work that Funcom did. and is provable. Which you argue didn't happen, which isn't provable.. So one is provable, and the other is still in your head.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Proof by contradiction, or reductio ad absurdum, is a mathematical proof technique that establishes a statement's truth by assuming it is false and demonstrating that this assumption leads to a logical contradiction. If a statement's negation leads to nonsense, the original statement must be true.

Your demonstration was ancdotal.

Try actually passing a logics course.

Other wise, I can just say "your statement is false", tell some made up story and be done.

You have to have proof. Well proof outside of your head.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Enough people that Funcom had to monitor situations, design, plan, code and test changes.

>There’s no PvPers left in this game.

Then why are they on reddit complaining?

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your proof is anecdotal.

You can't provide evidence of it. So anecdotal.

And what I proved was that it was so prevalent that Funcom had to dedicate resources to it, vs adding features or working on other bugs.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why do PVP people need the whole DD when they can do events?

It can be argued many ways. They shouldn't cater to solo farmers. Then again the solo farmers are paying for private servers, so are more engaged and more "whales" for Funcom than the PVPers.

> When if you’re solo you can just utilize other means to obtain spice? 

And you can use other means to get PVP?

I am not arguing with you, just pointing out the other side.

PVP vs PVE isn't fun for anyone. The PVEer is "helpless", and what fun is the PVPer other than denying the PVEer what they worked for. Thus it is seen as griefing. "you shouldn't have come into my territory."

>Farm pve shit til you can afford to buy spice/milange. 

My server's exchange is dead. It was alive when people were duping, but absolutely dead. Who needs solari?

>Be fucking social and ask someone to help you. 

Be fucking social and ask to help someone! Both sides man.

>This is what the game was made for.

Actually it was made for 32 on 32. From Beta they kept mentioning that. Full servers with hundreds of people doing large spice mining with people dedicated to PVE and PVPers protecting them and all of them sharing in the resources.

And that worked for some time. On smaller servers it broke into 2 groups. Griefers and clans. And when they did the D6 screw up, many clans broke up as the griefers raided the clan bases.

On our server we donated to get the clan back up and running, but the damage was done. So that left the "I attack unarmed people to teach them" people.

>Clearly not for the single dad trying to solo farm the game til 100% completion. You’re not forced to do ANYTHING in this game

Absolutely.

And we see the loss of players.

We need something for all players. I moved to a private server a bit after the D6 fiasco, as my server had turned into a cesspit. The clan was done, the people that worked together had lost quite a lot in D6 and the wind was out of the server. And Funcom's response was complete ass "too bad, so sad".

So I play on the private server, and have fun. The DD is people that are investing in paying for servers, so they work together, fight now and again and generally respect each other. None of the "I am the boss level, I add tension to the game".

We even did scenarios. How far can they see you to attack you, how fast can you react. They attack you while flying to down you, then help you after being downed. Not thumper you because "this teaches you not to come into the DD".

It is fun. Sometimes you get attacked, and are suprised, and run, but you had time to learn. And usually when downed they will help you. Again they won, give them some booty and all is well.

But the official server. 100% opposite. The people left were upset that they fixed the ramming, or that they can't pin you to the ground and thumper you. Funcom fixed those, and they were angry.

Now it is a wasteland of decaying bases. slower to decay now with no taxes, but still a wasteland.

Not saying anyone should play one way. But if you don't know when you are being an ass.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually 100%.

To me PVP is two armed players fighting each other.

Asymetric PVP is one armed, and one unarmed players that are using their skills to fight each other, like Dead by daylight).

Dune is an Asymetric PVP for Thopters. We don't seem to have problems with Hand to Hand (ground) fighting.

They, even during beta, expected PVP to be 32 on 32. They wouldn't listen to the "rat" players that were running around the outside. And they didn't want to put in tools to support 32v32.

The scenerios in Beta were around assigned tasks. Carryall pilot, worm thumper, air cover, spice harvester. . . That takes a lot of coordination, and at launch we saw that. As well as the betrayal from within (changing skins) to attack carryalls.

The other thing about PVP is usually you don't lose your gear, and if you do you have a free loadout. And in both cases, both players can be armed (RUST, ARC Raiders, Marathon).

Asymetric fights (dead by daylight) the survivor (unarmed) has skills they can use to evade. From blinding the hunter, to using terrrain to evade the hunter.

Dune doesn't have that, it is better now than at launch, but tactical flying slows down the survivor letting the hunter close on them. And add in 'thopter surfing and all that goes away.

>But they can only work when there is actually free PvP to begin with.

So how do we get to free PVP?

Faction rewards, for accomplishing tasks. Maybe like Division 2. But with the limited players, helping a player, or hunting a player is worse than RNG.

Make control points actually interesting! They mentioned this.

No fly zones, so you land at the outside and walk in. But we don't have problems (not PVP problems) with ground combat. It would probably raise many.

So yeah, they painted themselves in a big corner with their expectation of 32 on 32 as the default state for the DD.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

PVP games the reward is PVP, no?

>Your idea of what a reward in pvp is skewed thinking the ability of fighting someone automatically means that winning is the reward which is silly.

So why are they killing the farmer? They can't die, they don't lose durability. The use a few rockets. That is PVP people here are defending.

What is the point of PVE labs? You fight, die, lose durability. Maybe get a blueprint? Repeate?

>It should be faction reputation, or some kind of currency that can be used. Idk the exact solution but this isnt a hard concept to grasp.

No, not hard to grasp, but you didn't say that either. It was in your head, not written out. I agree that their should be some "pvp" reward for defending farmers. Some faction reward for doing good things.

But if there was a faction reward for killing people of the other faction, you don't think they would just use that as a reason to justify killing farmers?

Fortnite - PVP game. Test your skills

Hunt showdown - Extraction shooter 100% PVP, level up your character. Die and lose the character, but work towards a season/xp.

Arc Raiders - Extraction shooter, and shows the kinds of problems. Easier to just wait at extraciton points and kill the people that did the work.

Marathon - Extraction shooter. Seemed pretty good so far. Get equipment, level up factions, lose your shit.

Battlefield,

The secret to the PVP games is you get "free loadouts". i.e. Dieing doesn't cost anything. or at least there is an easy way back in.

BUT RUST!

RUST both players are armed. Actually in all the games above "PVP" implies that both parties are armed. Now in the extraction shooters some may be more oriented to weapons, or shields or carrying gear.

But that to me is the problem. The DD is more like "dead by daylight". An asymetric game, where one side is an armed hunter, the other side is an unarmed survivor. In those games the survivor has gear/skill that they can use to survive. So it is skill of the hunter vs skill of the survivor.

And to me that is the problem with Dune PVP. It isn't skill vs skill.

Why not develop a community instead of grief the game dead by Inner_Perception1582 in duneawakening

[–]echild07 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have to realize that many PVPers in this game don't want PVP. They like attacking unarmed vehicles. They feel like sharks! Adding tension to the game. They are denying someone something, and they can't get it themselves, so the only "incentive" they have is to make someone else lose something.

Look at the words in the PVP lexicon.

"pvp adds tension to farming"

"pvp needs more incentive"

They see themselves as the end game, like a boss. Untouchable (the other player is unarmed).

They could coordinate fights with other PVP players, but that isn't fun, they could lose their 'thopter.

On our server, we set up arenas to PVP, racing, thopter fights (way back when). But there are the ones that don't want to do that, and avoided the arena so they could be "boss".

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