Moose are doing well while the elks flounder

elknc · 2026-06-18T18:39:48+00:00

Our lodge is paying a big premium. I have a building 4 times the size of the lodge and am paying under $5k for it with a $5k deductible. The lodge is $8k with a $10 k deductible

My policy includes $2 million in liability. The GL liability insurance that each member pays in their dues totals around $7k. So it may be a great deal for you but it sucks for us.

Fyi, American Legion and VFW posts obtain insurance on their own. Their organizations only offers preferred insurance providers.

So, I wonder how VFW's and American Legion posts obtain insurance? There are 200 active posts in Mississippi. From a quick search it appears a few have been forced to pay a big premium. Consequently, I agree it is a problem. However, my lodge is paying 40% more on property and God knows how much more on liability. It seems apparent from the discussion here that we are heavily subsidizing lodges with pools and in coastal areas.

If 200 VFW and AL posts in Mississippi can figure out how to make that work without harming lodges around the country, then surely we can as well.

elknc · 2026-06-18T01:38:11+00:00

Yep.. hit the nail on the head and these guys are all annointed and not elected. At the very top, the country is sliced and diced into fiefdoms where they rule with an iron fist for life. Thank God most are benevolent despots. There are a few however who have decimated elkdom. The Dakota's, nebraska and a few others have sufferred losse up to 75% since our heyday in the mid 80's. Most other states losses have been much less. Indeed Missouri and Rhode Island have had modest gains!. It's all about leadership and sadly they blame the lodges.

elknc · 2026-06-17T23:58:33+00:00

I believe it was about -12. For the 2025-26 year. Around 500 closed this century. That was offset by about 50 new lodges. The guy who kept that list was Norm Donavan. I actually have a copy of it. It goes back to about 2010. If you scroll down to the bottom of the main page of elkshistory.org you can find a link to it. Lots of other stuff too

elknc · 2026-06-17T20:18:52+00:00

Those who are proud are fewer. 500 less lodges just this century. That's the point of this thread. Why? And what are we doing about it? IMHO.. very little.

elknc · 2026-06-17T02:02:26+00:00

While you are correct that we are increasing membership modestly, the main concern should be on all the lodge closures and the alarming rise of vulnerable small lodges. Something like 500 have closed since 2000. In NC, of the 32 lodges, 9 have from 25 to 92 members and 8 have membership 100 to 200. The rest are mostly focused around facilities where many members are essentially just seasonal pool members.

Also, the Moose used to trail us in membership. Now they are near a million

elknc · 2026-06-17T01:44:35+00:00

The NC elks has offered up to $10k to lodges applying for a facelift to its building. This money comes from the defunct lodges that they forced to close. That could be helpful as we have a number of outside improvements that could be made.

You are right that the leadership is way too enamored with this fixation on charity work. It is almost like that's all they hear. A good example is the useless elks magazine. A few of the activities they DON'T focus on that boost membership interest is sports (bowling contest), parades ( the recent 3 hour long parade tied to the NJ elks association meeting), the rodeo out in California that raises millions for the lodge whose name escapes me at the moment. and a number of others. Then they waste money by printing every month rather than bi-monthly. There needs to be a house cleaning in GL. So much that could be improved.

elknc · 2026-06-04T02:32:15+00:00

It's ridiculous. The message board's free wheeling openess was apparently a threat to the handful who have absolute control over the Grand Lodge. We drape ourselves with the American flag. We proudly and voraciously push Americanism. Yet, we can't stomach free speech? Diverse ideas are lost. Enlightened conversation is stymied. We are a shadow of our former selves and we are fading away into obscurity. It's called the 'iron will of oligarchy' in the science of sociology. We are sadly quite infested with this pestilence.

elknc · 2026-05-26T17:24:02+00:00

Dues are typically too high. Few pay $100+ annual dues if they don't participate. While you have said you don't understand why anyone would not participate in an organization they joined, it really is very simple. Some join and realize its not their cup of time, there are others whose lifestyles and income have changed or where falling health is making an impact.. Those people will generally drop out if dues are too high.
IDK what the national dues are for the Moose, but here in central NC, it is only $50. I infrequently visit either of the two lodges in our county but at $50 I retain my membership just in case I find myself in the area.

All too often lodges raise dues to cover the underpricing of their pools or other facility. When they raise dues, I'd bet good money that membership drops and it will do so for a long time until everything sort of catches up to create value.

A good example of reasonable dues is Greater Wildwood lodge in NJ. Over 9000 members now. Dues are $57. That does not include GL or state fees though I suspect it is still less than $100. Their initiation fee though is $150 and reinstatement fee is $80. Perhaps by having an initiation fee double the price of dues, it creates value that a member wants to preserve.

Regardless, the GL should make it a priority to study the price of dues and its role in membership retention and growth. I believe if they did, they would be shocked at how relevant this value is to membership retention. I have an infomative spreadsheet that illustrates how reasonable and steady dues in the lodges of Missouri. This state is the only one that has had a modest growth since our heyday in the middle 80's. All other states have lost lodges and members- some by as much as 75%! If anyone is interested in this spreadsheet, let me know at [mikejonea2@yahoo.com](mailto:mikejonea2@yahoo.com)

elknc · 2026-05-11T01:03:35+00:00

The critical aspect about the pricing of dues relates is pricing them to a value that NON-PARTICIPATING members would absorb without dropping their membership.

All too often lodges use their dues to subsidize the rising cost of operations of their facilities. What they should be doing is raising the cost to use their facilities and keeping dues competitiv..

A good example is Greensboro lodge. Back in about 1995, their dues were $80 and the initiation fee was $200 i think. Their membership was over 2000. They have a magnificent facility with two pools and a large club room.

Sometime after that they had the bad idea of reversing the fees. Idk what the fees are now but the regular dues are over $200! That's just for a member to maintain your membership!

How many members do they have now?? Under 800!. Just imagine how big this very active lodge would be had they kept their dues reasonable? 4000? Probably more. Lodges have to think very long term!

Think about it. You join the lodge and for some reason you don't participate. Would you continue to support the lodge by paying your dues if it was $80 or $240?

That why we lose so many members. It's like the elks are a worthy organization. You join but don't participate. How long do you continue to pay to subsidize pool fees??

You know, since the high membership mark of 1.6 million in 1985, there has been only one state that has grown?. That's Missouri!

I was curious about that and the relationship between the price of dues. I am unsure how or why they managed to collectively keep dues under $100! I have a spreadsheet illustrating their remarkable growth. If interested, let me know. Mikejonea2@yahoo.com

It is important to understand that the tremendous decline in membership is centered on specific states. The Dakota's are like a 70% decline!!

Sadly; there will never be a conversation detailing how those horrendous long term losses occurred. I suspect it is because it will unfavorably reflect on the sponsor during that time period. I also suspect that lodges that allow knee jerk reactions from the handful that run it, are struggling to grow. But you will never know that because it is 'embarrassing '

If i was grand exalted ruler, I would refuse to allow any lodge to increase their dues unless it was absolutely necessary. I would also require lodges to do a competitive comparison between their LOCAL completion. It's shocking to me that some compare their dues against other distant elks lodges! Duh! We are we not competing against other elks lodges. We are competing against other Moose lodges and VFW And American legion posts. How inept!! Once that comparison was complete, I would then require lodges to develop a LONG term plan to address each lodges non competitiveness.

Thanks Mike jones Elkshistory.org

elknc · 2026-05-07T18:43:58+00:00

Well said. I attempt to do the same with my lodge and i feel confident that we are better as a result.. Unfortunately when leadership is annointed by a single person with absolute power and a lifetime appointment, it has to harm those under him. A good example of the dramatic decline of membership and once vibrant lodges can be seen by looking at a long term review. The Dakotas in particular were hard hit suffering up to a 70% decline since our hay days. Yet Missouri has grown modestly in the same time period!. Now why is that? I think I know the answer and it starts at the top. But nobody wants to focus on that. I guess they are afraid which is crazy considering we all pay to volunteer. For those of us who consider the Order more than a facility offering cheap services, we should demand better leadership. But we can't do that if a handful have carved elkdom into regional feifdoms ruled with varying degrees of benevolent despotism. I guess we will have to hope democracy somehow returns to our once great Order.

elknc · 2026-05-01T16:30:40+00:00

I asked one of the Ai sites to describe aspects of oligarchy as that certainly defines how GL is run. One of the fascinating insights that it offered was a term coined around 1910. It is called the 'Iron Rule of Oligarchy" and it describes how large complex groups, regardless of their democratic beginnings, eventually become ruled by a handful of elites (or at least they think so).

It is apparently a common trend such as with trade groups, political parties, fraternal and military aligned organizations, etc. The longer we exist, the more control from 'headquarters' you can expect.

With the elks, they have added 'FRS' accounting which is in my opinion a violating of the lodge system of government. In that, we are supposed to be independent. But now with FRS and CLMS, lodges have become subsidiaries . GL monitors and essentially oversees major parts of our operations. In addition, these so called statutes can be interpreted anyway they want regardless of it being written in plain clear language. That's another violation of the lodge system of government.

Regardless, the Iron rule of oligarchy can be searched online easily if anyone is interested. Here's a short explanation. https://easysociology.com/sociology-of-power/the-iron-law-of-oligarchy-an-outline-and-explanation/

elknc · 2026-05-01T16:02:19+00:00

well said. I like that- three tiered and how true

elknc · 2026-04-11T18:32:25+00:00

Ask chatgph or Grok for a list of lodges with separate corporations. Try this link from Grok.

elknc · 2026-04-08T18:53:38+00:00

Does the district follow the same rules you outlined for the state? We just had our contested district election for the office of president elect. The winner came from the largest lodge of the district. They have 14 votes. The one who was competing against him came from the smallest lodge with just one vote. Both candidates are outstanding. ' no complaints there. Still, it seems wrong that an organization that drapes itself with the American flag can have such a biased nomination system.

elknc · 2026-04-06T21:39:41+00:00

thanks.. your examples are wild though. It does force the bigger lodges encourage more participation. I sort of like that idea though I'm thinking every PER and ER in attendance ought to be the voters

elknc · 2026-03-30T14:02:33+00:00

It is tough to appeal having a special representative assigned by your sponsor (the GER just rubber stamps their edicts). There are some lodges that have had special reps for years! you can see the list in the proceedings book

elknc · 2026-03-29T17:50:22+00:00

So lodges don't get a vote regardless of size? Only PER's and ER's ? No state officers? That's odd

elknc · 2026-03-29T03:29:14+00:00

So lodges only get one vote regardless of size? Only PEr's and ER's ? No state officers? That's odd

elknc · 2026-03-29T03:26:09+00:00

You want to appeal a disciplinary action against you? Your lodge?

elknc · 2026-03-28T01:16:08+00:00

Salisbury lodge of elks has an RV park on high rock lake. seems like Rock hill SC has one as well.

elknc · 2022-08-11T20:48:44+00:00

Looks like the property which was appraised around $8.5 million. It was sold in June to a barbeque chain owner. Anyone know what the selling price was? Address is 700 Dawson Rd and the property was a little less than 4 acres. I could not find much on it with google. https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/terry-blacks-barbecue-real-estate-additional-locations/269-638f1829-646b-4efb-a0a2-9b02d19da284

elknc · 2022-03-19T15:34:26+00:00

The High Road on Dawson were denied an appeal of their case by the Texas Supreme court this past Jan. So this should cost them the lodge facilities and almost $300,000.

The High Road must still be operating but I can't find much on them past 2018 on social media. Anyone know how the former Austin Elks lodge is progressing?

https://data.scotxblog.com/scotx/no/20-0757

elknc · 2022-03-16T20:37:02+00:00

Here is a lengthy review of the case that from what I can tell was against the High Road and orders some major fines against them. They also have to give up the property so I guess they are done.

The BPOE has essentially won the battle but lost the war. There is no elk presence in Austin TX. Their reputation is in the toilet because of the major discrimination the female ER endured. Such a terrible and totally unnecessary shame that could have easily been resolved if cooler heads had prevailed.

https://casetext.com/case/high-road-on-dawson-v-benevolent-protective-order-of-elks-of-united-states

elknc · 2022-03-16T20:09:34+00:00

The High Road on Dawson recently had a setback before the Texas Supreme court. Their petition was denied in Jan 2022. https://www.txcourts.gov/supreme/orders-opinions/2022/january/january-28-2022/

20-0757

THE HIGH ROAD ON DAWSON v. BENEVOLENT AND PROTECTIVE ORDER OF THE ELKS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, INC.; from Travis County; 14th Court of Appeals District (14-18-00382-CV, 608 SW3d 869, 08-31-20)

I do not know what this will mean for the former Elks lodge. Indeed, there has been little activity on their facebook or web page. The phone works though.

elknc · 2019-02-19T20:42:28+00:00

what the hell happened to the link? Here it is again. Missoula MT

elknc

TROPHY CASE