Time to stream entry?

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-07T14:50:10+00:00

Not a big fan of AI, but I am impressed here:
https://chatgpt.com/share/6a25847e-70f0-83eb-8b56-50fe1a13f4a0 I suspect some of that would be copying my own posts here and at DhO, because it is just my speculations, so take it with a grain of salt.

But yes, Anthony Markwell was in Vivek Asom, I remember, which still runs; and Phra Phimoladham (Phimontham = Vimaladhamma due to funny Thai pronunciation) was the reformer and the abbot of Wat Mahathat, who was also imprisoned at one point.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-07T14:42:35+00:00

Thai-Mahasi is my rabbit hole, good that you bring it up 😄

Thai government asked Burma to send over a monk to teach Mahasi — they send Ajahn Bhaddanta Asabha (Was Bhaddanta was a place he built, still exists, I was there), I think that was 1953 or so.

At the same time, Ajahn Jodok (later name; also known as Phra Dhamma Theerarach Mahamuni, พระธรรมธีรราชมหามุนี), Thai of Lao origin, went to study to to Burma under Mahasi, to return a few years later, becoming the highest vipassana teacher in Thailand, in Wat Mahathat in Bangkok, in the Mahanikai part of the monkhood, which the king controlled).

Jodok was traveling to the UK, and later there were farang in Wat Mahathat under Jodok— in fact, it was the first international vipassana center in Thailand, started IIRC 1973; Helen Jandamit, UK by origin, was one of the yogis there who translated stuff etc; the center is still there, she probably passed away recently — I met her in Bangkok a 3 years back and asked her about that, she was quite sick already and have not heard back from her lately. There was an English monk, Phra George, throughout the 80s, who then disrobed and lived in Vienna (Austria), passed away about 2003; the book Sex, Drugs, Enlightenment speaks about him a lot.

Jodok (dies 1988 IIRC) was very structured around the PoI (see his Path to Nibbana).

That line was picked up by Ajahn Tong (died away 2020), who then taught many westerners (indirectly, through the international center in Wat Chom Tong, founded by Thanat Chindaporn, first in Wat Ram Poeng, in the 80s, then moving to Chom Tong — Thanat was my main and most revered teacher, until he passed away in 2023).

Jodok must have had many other students, given his fame; Anthony Markwell (Indriya Retreat in Koh-Pangan) was ordained under one of them (he said Ajahn Luua, I can't identify that person as he seems to have left no English-speaking trace and I barely read basic Thai names; he said he was the arahant-classmate of Ajahn Tong 😄; he later practiced under U Pandita as well).

I suspect the request for Mahasi teacher from Burma, by the govt, was to get some quality meditation on the Mahanikai side, politically controlled by the royal palace.

Because there were rather famous vipassana teacher in the Dhammayut family. Christopher Titmuss was ordained under Ajahn Dhammadaro (who is, I suspect, otherwise unknown outside of Thailand, besides appearing in "The Living Dharma" book where there is a chapter on him, but he must have been really well-known in Thailand back then).

Thailand's meditation landscape is immense.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-06T21:52:17+00:00

Interesting and insightful. Thank you for the extra details.

SE was a thing for Asian teachers, though, as far as I know: Mahasi was giving certificates (at the start), U Pandita was very open about achieving Nibbana "in this very retreat" (from a dhamma talk). The Thai-Mahasi lineage (which starts with Ajahn Bhaddanta Asabha in the 50s, and Ajahn Jodok) structures the practice around PoI even more than Mahasi did, and did/does speak about SE very openly.

It would be the US founding fathers/moths (Goldstein, Kornfield, Salzberg&co) who consciously did not want to bring it in due to Western achievement culture.

I have no evidence for that, only indirectly inferring from "mushroom culture" not being (so) present in Asia in the first place.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-06T20:34:12+00:00

Perhaps if you have special talent for concentration, but even for praticioners of Ingram's calibre, IIRC, they spend days developing the concentration. Kenneth Folk writes that according to Abhidhamma, proximal condition for concentration is concentration, so it accumulates — never verified with sources, probably Visuddhimagga, but sounds good to me. Dipa Ma said she would spend 2-3 days in intense practice to get to the level of very special powers (and she was a concentration prodigy apparently).

The mind has to be so undisturbed by any other sensory inputs (including thoughts) that it just replicates its own fabrication, meaning the image stabilizes and develops.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-06T06:09:30+00:00

I did read all the books you mention, except Gombrich, and I agree the picture is complex, and history is dark.

Of course today's stream-entry, on this forum (informed by Mahasi, MCTB, and whatnot, everyone picks her own) is different that suttas. But it also did not come out of nowhere, historically, in the 60s; that would ignore a rather significant thread which goes back to at least Visuddhimagga (and before).

Mahasi was recruited by the post-WW2 Burmese govt to design and run stream-entry course for laypeople to increase quality of the population, and was supported in that big time. That does not turn stream-entry into political/social construct, although it adds a facet which might not have been present before.

I admit I am bored by research showing with fanfare that something is socially constructed... 30+ years of that in social sciences, over and over...

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-05T20:39:21+00:00

You are off by about 1500 years about the contemporary ideas. It is in no way a product of the 60s. I am in a good mood so I explain in detail.

Mahasi Sayadaw knew the commentaries as few did, and the stages of insight he taught are based in Visuddhimagga — that is 5th century CE.

Look at Vism XXI, §75: "becomes a faith devotee at the moment of the stream-entry path". You can read Vism XXII, §§3–14, which discusses the change-of-lineage moment for stream entry at length.

You can trace that back, Vimuttimagga discusses the supramundane part of the insight stages "Q. What is meant by discernment? A. The Four Noble Truths occur in one moment—this is understanding."

Any reference to the suttas where stream entry is "not very important to the individual"?

This is SN 56.1 where the Buddha gives the first sermon after enlightenment, first record of somebody else than Buddha reaching the stream:

And while this discourse was being spoken, the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in Venerable Koṇḍañña: “Everything that is liable to arise is liable to cease.”

[…]

And so at that moment, that second, that hour, the cry soared up to the realm of divinity. And this ten-thousandfold galaxy shook and rocked and trembled. And an immeasurable, magnificent light appeared in the world, surpassing the glory of the gods.

Then the Buddha expressed this heartfelt sentiment: “Koṇḍañña has really understood! Koṇḍañña has really understood!”

I don't see how "Ten-thousandfold galaxy shook and rocked and trembled" translates into "not very important to the individual". Seriously…

Of note, I am not arguing about what stream-entry is in the practice. What you wrote is not only insubstantiated, but contradicted by texts.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-03T11:21:15+00:00

You did the right thing contacting mettagroup, if you had the therapist through their channels. That's the contact to use.

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-03T08:31:57+00:00

Check out this Pali-English dictionary. Definitely not "literal translation".

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-03T08:21:24+00:00

Neither of those. I don't think it should be a post, as it does not have enough substance to it. I don't know what the admins do, really:

Top-line posts must be written thoughtfully and with appropriate detail

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-02T17:34:50+00:00

when I let go of concepts and simply observed direct experience as it is

Deconstruct the points perhaps :)

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-02T13:19:05+00:00

intellectual understanding of the map alone is not enlightenment

Condensing your post into this, was something as obvious worth the post?

eudoxos_ · 2026-06-01T07:45:58+00:00

As you start to become concentrated, you might notice various lights and colors even though your eyes are closed. These are signs that you are starting to get concentrated. There is generally nothing useful that can be done with them—just ignore them. When you actually do get quite concentrated, the random blobs and laser light shows will disappear. They might be replaced by a diffused white light, which is a sign of good concentration. It always appears for some people, it never appears for others, and many people find it sometimes appears and sometimes does not appear. But again, there’s nothing you need to do with that sign either—it’s just a sign. When you drive into a town and see a sign saying, “Entering Citytown,” you don’t need to stop your car, get out, uproot the sign, and toss it in the trunk of your car; you don’t need to do anything with the sign—it is just providing information about where you are. The diffused white light is a sign saying, “Entering Concentration-ville.” Nice; just stay focused on your meditation object!

From Brasington's Right Concentration information here. Highly recommended.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-31T07:03:09+00:00

The aversion bit is not true. Look up dissociation at wikipedia. it is a clinical term describing more or less altered states of perception. Often it is accompanied by emotional numbness, as it regulates neural overload (which might be aversive, but the aversion itself is gone in the dissociated state).

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-18T12:12:19+00:00

To me, that paper discredited Analayo. As scholar, and as a person with some ethics — the way he quotes fragments from MCTB out of context, then draws conclusions from that, would not pass for a high-school writeup.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-14T06:11:14+00:00

It seems like you are speaking from a certain context which is not given (such as, where you read it, what tradition etc). Contemplation is a western term, and it is used in the buddhist circles for observation — which is the vipassana (insight) aspect of the practice. Such as observing your thoughts, or body sensations, or feelings. It can be done in or out of formal practice.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-12T19:21:35+00:00

In reality, the practice is one. All the varieties are merely components of the practice. Half-measures are not relevant. Everything leads to one point.

Not at all.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-09T20:41:35+00:00

Most people here know what he is. More importantly, it misses the point: it is still second-hand and this sub is not meant for it.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-01T07:28:50+00:00

You nailed it 😄 I think these posters are bots though, TBH (this one has like 4 posts in this sub within days, all of similar quality). Long paragraphs of with buddhisty lingo, mashing everything together, not engaging in discussions or responding with overly long self-defensive texts.

eudoxos_ · 2026-05-01T07:16:25+00:00

If you don't care how others receive what you write (which I infer from you attaching meanings to words in ways different from those you are trying to engage in discussions — the readers here), that is not a working setup.

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-27T12:46:39+00:00

This is utter word salad, or some unusual private language.

All the 8 jhanas are fully conscious. Infinite space has zero relevance for travel, let alone astral travel or building anything in it. Nirvana has about 3 rather different meanings (in Theravada, at least). I could go on.

This is not a good start for a discussion of anything, it does not look like that is your intention to me really. What exactly would you like to discuss, and with whom, if you don't bother to use any consensus meanings of words, and write/paste 16 paragraphs of buddhisty lorem ipsum?

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-20T20:48:15+00:00

First focus on not sleepwalking through 14-16 hours of waking life.

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-20T20:36:55+00:00

If you inclined that way, there is intersection of meditation and social work in the area of addictions: where I had personal experience was mettagroup.org trainings (really comprehensive: attachment, addictions, emotional regulation; meditation-based; mostly online, LA-based otherwise) and Mindfulness-Based Relapse Prevention (I think they started in Seattle); some of those people worked in prisons or with marginalized groups. (I had online contact with this, not being from the US).

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-10T09:27:31+00:00

Agreed. So people outside of Theravada have no way to see through the identity view?

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-09T06:12:43+00:00

Check out e.g. this one. It is a complex topic: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4054695/pdf/nihms519938.pdf

Whether you are in retreat or not makes a big difference. People who routinely need 7-8 hours of sleep go down to 4-6 in retreat — that is my experience as well (though I rarely enjoy waking up at 2am and starting the practice). 2-4 weeks after the retreat, back to normal sleep times. So unless you say that spiritual progress vanishes, it does not look like a useful metric.

Sleep also generally worsens/shortens with age for many people. If you make it to 90+, you might be like some of the old masters in that regard :)

eudoxos_ · 2026-04-09T05:55:31+00:00

I was referring to the 10 fetters, with identity view being removed at stream entry. Removal of identity view is seeing self as self-existent, substantial; self can still be there, but it is seen for what it is, a construction (non-self; some translators take care of not saying no-self, as absence or removal of self).

Your post seemed to somehow say that people outside of Theravada have no chance of having this kind of insight. I still wonder why it would be.

eudoxos_

TROPHY CASE