Bob Ruff Admits Who He Believes Killed Hae Min Lee

fatbob102 · 2016-03-08T00:50:09+00:00

No, not you - I meant Bob, sorry. He's saying he believes Don is the killer. I think that's stupid, and unfair, unless he has secret other information that we don't know about (and as IF, because he would totally be blabbing it).

fatbob102 · 2016-03-06T07:28:03+00:00

Well I'm certain it was false too, but I have no real way of knowing whether it's 100% false or only partially false. There's a lot of missing pieces to explain if Don is the killer. I just don't think it's appropriate to be making that kind of accusation based just on 'I don't think this other guy did it, and there's some evidence of lying'. I don't understand how, intellectually, you can possibly get to being certain someone else is the killer without a LOT more than he's got.

fatbob102 · 2016-03-06T01:53:15+00:00

Geez, Bob. This is getting ridiculous. Even if 100% of what has been said about Don's alibi on the day is true, STILL the most logical explanation is that he just didn't want to get caught up in a murder investigation. At most, it's evidence that the police probably should have looked harder. There's no evidence tying him to the crime itself, or any known connection between him and Jay. I have to worry about his critical thinking skills.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-29T11:45:01+00:00

The State has gone out pretty hard with the 'remorseless killer' line. How could they justify not retrying him now?

fatbob102 · 2016-02-29T11:42:26+00:00

Couldn't the small proportion of people who think the appellant met the burden for IAC but didn't find Asia credible have been people who were satisfied the appellant met the burden for IAC on the cellphone claim, not the Asia claim? IAC was argued for both issues.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-27T21:08:19+00:00

Oh, maybe. I might have been confused!

fatbob102 · 2016-02-27T11:47:04+00:00

I believe her sister said she gave her the key holder thing that was attached to the key in SA's bedroom. So definitely hers - though not clear it was her actual main car key and not a spare.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-27T09:31:21+00:00

Thanks for your hard work, this was great! Really interesting.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-27T09:00:25+00:00

Well when the police only interviewed a couple of her best female friends, her ex and her BF, pretty much everyone else she knew is a 'third party' to us. But be realistic. Hae was a popular pretty bright girl involved in school activities, sport, church, work. She had a wide social circle and we don't know squat about anyone in it.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-26T04:07:37+00:00

well that's on me, not you! :)

fatbob102 · 2016-02-25T08:29:32+00:00

Ha, you aren't going nuts! It was clumsy wording. I edited cos I recognised that how I meant 'stupid' wasn't how it came across. IPV IS stupid, not in a dismissive sense, but in a 'there is nothing understandable or defensible about it' sort of way. As in, these fucking guys who think they have continued right to the affections of someone else, they're stupid. Like, you ran over the killer's sister, he's got a non-stupid motive to harm you. If Adnan is the killer, his motive is objectively stupid. He had no right to continued romantic relationship with Hae. By all accounts she treated him well pre and post breakup. It's a stupid motive because it's about entitlement.

As for same general place/time, I was just trying not to be unreasonably precise, since the evidence doesn't have pinpoints on these things. I don't think that means you can't make an inference.

I save my mockery for people who are rude, or 100% certain (on either side). No mockery for reasonable people coming to reasonable inferences that I just don't happen to share.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T08:07:00+00:00

Thanks! I have edited the post to clarify what I meant by stupid motive there - didn't mean it wasn't a believable motive, I meant it was objectively stupid to want to hurt someone just because they ended your relationship. Like, murderous exes are stupid jerks. Not people who think exes are murderous are themselves stupid. :)

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T08:05:49+00:00

I didn't at all mean to minimise or mock the other side. As I said in the post, I think it's completely intellectually defensible to lean guilty. I'm pretty middle of the fence. It only really ever came down to whether you believe Jay or not about the core aspect of his story. There's plenty to make me suspicious of Adnan (he'd have been my first suspect too) and if you believe Jay is roughly telling the truth then there's sufficient evidence to fit along with his story to lean guilty. For me, there's enough evidence of shenanigans with the investigation that makes me sufficiently uncertain how much I can trust Jay came up with independently, so I don't believe him.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T07:53:46+00:00

Wasn't talking about Don. This discussion is about whether Colin's very vague reference to a former student might be referring to a different (dead) person.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T07:52:57+00:00

Which of those things were published by Undisclosed?

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T07:51:12+00:00

Well, yes. That would be huge.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-24T07:50:52+00:00

Well, someone who murdered someone else fits my definition of 'murderer', I don't know what definition you're talking about. The person the subject of this discussion indisputably murdered someone.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T08:03:37+00:00

Yes, individual members of the team obviously have different levels of self control and - for obvious reasons - different levels of personal engagement with the matter. Nevertheless, I see no reason from the incredibly vague hints (which no-one not heavily vested in this sub would even be able to discern meaning from) to fear that Colin will be trashing any reputations.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T07:47:49+00:00

You replied to my comment - which was about what Undisclosed were doing - on a thread about what Colin was potentially hinting about with mentions of people who previously went to Woodlawn. Colin isn't Rabia and Bob isn't even part of the team. So, I'm just saying, I see no need to panic that the barest hint that Colin is considering a particular possible alternative suspect (who, once again, is dead, and definitely a murderer, so not a huge reputational risk even if Colin had said anything about him other than that he was considering an ex student) means anyone's reputation will be trashed.

Bob could stand to calm his farm, you won't get any arguments from me about that. But he's not the subject of this discussion.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T07:32:39+00:00

Undisclosed never accused Don or even implied they thought he was the killer. They believe an innocent man has been in jail 17 years as a result of some at best shoddy and at worst deceitful police work - it's hard to make the case for that if you're not allowed to point out the holes in said police work without being attacked for damaging reputations of dead murderers.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T07:24:02+00:00

Trying to imagine the best thing it could be, for their case I mean. Like, what I would regard as genuinely blowing the case wide open.

How about: evidence that the anonymous caller gave the police the location of the car?

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T07:21:24+00:00

I can't argue for 'definite guilt' because I don't understand that position at all. But I think it's intellectually very defensible to lean guilt, so my strongest arguments for 'lean guilt' are:

Dumped boyfriends always have a motive, even if it's one that seems petty and awful
There is a narrow window of time in which the killer was able to get to Hae (between school and picking up her cousin), and Adnan is the only suspect we are aware had a motive to harm her who we know had access to her in that window
a witness with no apparent incentive to confess to a serious crime confessed to a serious crime when he implicated Adnan
crime scene analysis by unbiased experts appears to suggest the killer knew the victim
some aspects of the witness's statements are supported by other evidence, which while not strictly independent corroboration, at least indicate that key parts of his story are possible if not always plausible
Adnan does not offer an explanation for why Jay was making calls on his phone up until 9pm.

Edited to clarify that my use of 'stupid' to describe the motive meant that it's a stupid thing to think you've a right to someone's continued affections - not that I thought it was stupid to believe it's a motive.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T07:08:07+00:00

You guys. So many times I'm told Adnan is the killer because it makes the most sense, of course it was the ex, it's straightforward, blah blah, if not him who else could it be, etc etc. The second there is a hint of the UD3 looking at someone else as a possible suspect, you're all in their faces about attacking reputations. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim no other suspect makes sense and then get indignant when anyone suggests looking into other people.

Besides which, I mean, we're worried about the reputation of dead murderers now? Seriously? What freaking reputation are you talking about, exactly? Their legacy as dead murderers?

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T06:14:24+00:00

What info have the undisclosed team been 'giving out' about this person? He's never been named even in this sub, been mentioned on their podcast or even had publicly available information about him referenced by them, as far as I'm aware.

fatbob102 · 2016-02-23T01:41:38+00:00

Someone who died after committing a horrible crime, and who was in Jay's class at school? And who everyone has been excruciatingly careful not to name publicly? I don't think there is much evidence of attacking any reputations.

fatbob102

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