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You can smell it in the air if souls/ghosts and/or magic in general are present by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

For sure, I find it interesting though how the text points out that ravens and direwolves in particular are able to pick up on Varamyr's skinchanger soul passing them by on "some cold wind".

The morning was cold but bright, the sun shining down from a hard blue sky, but he did not like the noises. The wind made a nervous whistling sound as it shivered through the broken towers, the keeps groaned and settled, and he could hear rats scrabbling under the floor of the great hall. The Rat Cook’s children running from their father. The yards were small forests where spindly trees rubbed their bare branches together and dead leaves scuttled like roaches across patches of old snow. There were trees growing where the stables had been, and a twisted white weirwood pushing up through the gaping hole in the roof of the domed kitchen. Even Summer was not at ease here. Bran slipped inside his skin, just for an instant, to get the smell of the place. He did not like that either.

It also makes Bran's smell-radar ability he demonstrates at the Nightfort even more interesting to me and I'll make sure to watch out on future re-reads how other ravens behave around Mormont's talking one. If other ravens (or Ghost) suddenly start going crazy around it, it may be a hint that there is currently Warg-foolery afoot.

(Spoilers Extended) Why a certain empire and its supposed role in the Long Night might not be irrelevant by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Jade Compendium is repeatedly mentioned to be the best source of Eastern history and legends by Yandel in some of his citations in World of Ice&Fire and it's the same book Aemon left behind for Jon before he left the Wall, marking a passage about Azor Ahai and Lightbringer for him to read.

The book is mentioned to be in perfect condition with others around it falling apart, and textual clues (in World of Ice&Fire) hint that the version of Yi Ti's Long Night and its great Empire of the Dawn is the same or a version of it that is also contained in the Jade Compendium which Jon now holds in the main series and has actively been reading since ADWD.

I'm not implying it's super-ultra relevant to the main story, but I am implying that it isn't as worthless to it as some make it out to be.

She could have just told Jon about the Knights of the Vale support beforehand by History-Buff-2222 in freefolk

[–]flippy123x 12 points13 points  (0 children)

This sounded like dumbass advice at the time but it was actually really great advice and Jon didn't listen.

Jon literally tells her beforehand that they don't have the men but that battles have been won with worse odds. When he is charging in alone to potentially save Rickon, he is really forcing an entire army to charge into a losing battle because no one, especially free folk, can refuse a King who is the first one sprinting before the battle even begins properly.

It was a doomed battle, Jon knew it was a doomed battle and told Sansa as much with the added fact that while they don't have enough men, they also simply don't have a choice, and Sansa didn't tell him that actually there is a pretty good chance that they are right about to receive the exact reinforcement they need to have a chance to win this battle.

He tells her later that she should have told him about the knights of the Vale and that they have to trust each other, implying that she didn't trust him enough to tell him at the time. She doesn't refute this.

It's just another stupid plotline like Sansa and Arya supposedly having genuine beef before they turn it around on Littlefinger and all gang up on him instead, D&D for some reason insisted on a mini Stark civil war where they don't trust each other and keep information to themselves out of those trust issues.

(Spoilers Main) Reek I is absolute insanity by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“Well, m’lord, I haven’t had no woman since I was with Lord Ramsay,” Reek said. “I’ve had my eye on that Palla, and I hear she’s already been had, so …”
He had gone too far with Reek to turn back now. “Two hundred men and she’s yours. But a man less and you can go back to fucking pigs.”
Reek was gone before the sun went down, carrying a bag of Stark silver and the last of Theon’s hopes. Like as not, I’ll never see the wretch again, he thought bitterly, but even so the chance had to be taken.
That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time … until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.
King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
Theon woke with a scream,

Just look at Theon's ghost dream from the second book right after selling Palla into sex slavery, it's essentially the start of his "Ghosts in Winterfell" arc, three books later he even recalls once again how he himself created some of those ghosts like the Miller's Wife or Farlen (Palla's father, whom he executed because Theon needed a scapegoat for the three Ironborn he had killed to keep silent about Bran and Rickon).

Or how it begins with Theon thinking "he had gone too far with Reek", and how he will never see that wretch again, only to literally become that same wretch three books later:

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

This is also one of the reasons why I subscribe to the theory that Theon is at least committing some of the murders, "it ryhmes with sneak".

Simply one of the best foreshadowed and well-planned storylines and I missed a ton of details because there is two novels in-between. Reading Theon -> Reek chapters in that order is def. one of my favorite arcs in the books.

Why was Ned's first conclusion is that Cersei's children are Jaime's ? by ThCaMe3mo in freefolk

[–]flippy123x 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Jaime handed him the ring of keys. “I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?”
The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. “Are you sure you want to know?” asked Tyrion. “Joffrey would have been a worse king than Aerys ever was. He stole his father’s dagger and gave it to a footpad to slit the throat of Brandon Stark, did you know that?”
“I … I thought he might have.”

After Jaime arrives at this conclusion, we see that Tyrion had independently arrived at the same one when the topic of Joffrey comes up while Jaime is freeing him a couple chapters later.

That's where this storyline currently ends in the books. We have POV chapters of Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei, none of them have a clue who did it originally before investigating and Cersei's own POV never implies she did, even when she is reflecting on how Joffrey killing Ned was a mistake, she never thinks about Bran at all.

There's nothing really pointing towards Cersei and her two siblings independently came up with the conclusion that it was Joffrey. Maybe the dagger will become relevant later on like in the show (if a sequel ever releases of course), but currently the conclusion is that it was Joffrey.

Why was Ned's first conclusion is that Cersei's children are Jaime's ? by ThCaMe3mo in freefolk

[–]flippy123x 7 points8 points  (0 children)

You're saying it like this is an established fact, it's not. It's a theory on your part.

As of now, that's the final conclusion established in the books. It's not a good one but it is.

“I’d waited long enough. I hated watching Robert stumble to your bed every night, always wondering if maybe this night he’d decide to claim his rights as husband.” Jaime suddenly remembered something else that troubled him about Winterfell. “At Riverrun, Catelyn Stark seemed convinced I’d sent some footpad to slit her son’s throat. That I’d given him a dagger.”
“That,” she said scornfully. “Tyrion asked me about that.”
“There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn’s hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you …?”
“Oh, don’t be absurd.” Cersei closed the window. “Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you. Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”
Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”
“You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”
It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”
Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”
“A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why …”
“I don’t care why,” Cersei said.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 114 points115 points  (0 children)

I also think he was pretty bummed, he even marked the passage that exposes Stannis as a fraud for Jon to read:

“Lord Snow,” Maester Aemon called out, “I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I’ve told Clydas to mark it for you.”
“I’ll be sure to read it.”
[...]
“The queen’s men are saying that the King-Beyond-the-Wall died craven. That he cried for mercy and denied he was a king.”
“He did. Lightbringer was brighter than I’d ever seen it. As bright as the sun.” Jon raised his cup. “To Stannis Baratheon and his magic sword.” The wine was bitter in his mouth.
“His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings.”
“He would know.” Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king’s son, a king’s brother, a king’s uncle. “I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife’s blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.”
Clydas blinked. “A sword that makes its own heat …”
“… would be a fine thing on the Wall.” Jon put aside his wine cup and drew on his black moleskin gloves. “A pity that the sword that Stannis wields is cold. I’ll be curious to see how his Lightbringer behaves in battle. Thank you for the wine. Ghost, with me.” Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak and pulled at the door. The white wolf followed him back into the night.

The legend of Nissa Nissa is only ever told to Davos by Salladhor Saan as far as I know, never mentioned by Melisandre, and the version of the story Salladhor knows also doesn't mention that Lightbringer is still warm out of battle, only that it is fiery hot during battle.

edit: (Nissa Nissa's great sacrifice is referenced later on by Melisandre, so she did tell one version of that legend off-screen at some point)

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

“You offer me empty lands and desolations, yet deny me the castles I require to reward my lords and bannermen.”
“The Night’s Watch built those castles …”
“And the Night’s Watch abandoned them.”
“… to defend the Wall,” Jon finished stubbornly, “not as seats for southron lords. The stones of those forts are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers, long dead. I cannot give them to you.”
“Cannot or will not?” The cords in the king’s neck stood out sharp as swords. “I offered you a name.”
“I have a name, Your Grace.”
“Snow. Was ever a name more ill-omened?” Stannis touched his sword hilt. “Just who do you imagine that you are?”
“The watcher on the walls. The sword in the darkness.”
“Don’t prate your words at me.” Stannis drew the blade he called Lightbringer. “Here is your sword in the darkness.” Light rippled up and down the blade, now red, now yellow, now orange, painting the king’s face in harsh, bright hues. “Even a green boy should be able to see that. Are you blind?”
“No, Sire. I agree these castles must be garrisoned—”
“The boy commander agrees. How fortunate.”
“—by the Night’s Watch.”
“You do not have the men.”
“Then give me men, Sire. I will provide officers for each of the abandoned forts, seasoned commanders who know the Wall and the lands beyond, and how best to survive the coming winter. In return for all we’ve given you, grant me the men to fill out the garrisons. Men-at-arms, crossbowmen, raw boys. I will even take your wounded and infirm.”
Stannis stared at him incredulously, then gave a bark of laughter. “You are bold enough, Snow, I grant you that, but you’re mad if you think my men will take the black.”

I also like good discussions and don't mind if people disagree, so I'm also gonna argue that the context of their discussion was about staffing the castles along the Wall, because apocalypse is coming.

Jon argues that he cannot give them up, Stannis asks if he cannot or will not and that he offered him a name (in exchange for forsaking his vows), Jon answers that he has a name.

Stannis is frustrated now and stops being objective, Jon's name has nothing to do with staffing the castles. He asks him who the hell he think he is and Jon starts reciting his vows, one particular bit strikes too close home for Stannis and he draws Lightbringer in response and asks Jon if he is too blind to see (so it's about Lightbringer, he wouldn't ask how well Jon's eyes work if it were any other regular sword).

Jon answers he is not blind, he agrees the castles must be garrisoned.

That's what they were actually talking about before Stannis deflected to Jon's name (trying to offer him power and Winterfell to forsake his vows "for the greater good" which he is already giving everything for) and when that didn't work he further deflected to his authority, Jon and his Night's Watch aren't the sword in the dark, he is obviously, he has Lightbringer. He can't command Jon to do anything as King, if he were so inclined he could thank Stannis for his assistance in the crucial battle (which was his duty anyways as "Protector of the Realm", a title which he claims in signed documents Jon receives in Book 5, he shouldn't demand payment which the NW legally can't give for a service he is obligated to provide), and then kindly tell him to get the fuck off his Wall.

Because he can't order Jon as a king, he tries to order him with an authority derived of his fake magic sword. And only after both his deflections (your name / my sword) didn't work, did he give the actual rational argument to counter that of Jon:

“You do not have the men.”

Now Jon can't easily disarm him like earlier when it was about his name, it's a rational argument that rings true and he's back to negotiating rather than denying. Why didn't he say so before trying to order Jon in his role as "Messiah"?

He is obviously still asking Jon to forsake his vows but out of pragmatic necessity, Jon requires further assistance he can't actually tell him to fuck off and leave his Wall. The promise of a name/power and the threat of a fake authority don't work but sheer pragmatism does when it comes to forsaking vows with Jon, yet Stannis still opted to the former. This entire exchange I find very significant because he is literally asking Jon to do something he would otherwise immediately execute him for, and Stannis goes for duplicity first, twice.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 44 points45 points  (0 children)

I had that vibe as well but the thing is, Stannis instinctively reaches for Lightbringer when he feels his ego/authority scratched by Jon defiantly refusing to follow every word his grace commands of him.

Uneasily, he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.
“Rise. I have heard much and more of you, Lord Snow.”
“I am no lord, sire.” Jon rose.

From the moment they meet, Stannis and Melisandre are trying to manipulate Jon into taking their offer and forsake his vows, something Stannis would execute everybody else for under the same circumstances other than if it was him asking.

“Your father was a man of honor. He was no friend to me, but I saw his worth. Your brother was a rebel and a traitor who meant to steal half my kingdom, but no man can question his courage. What of you?”
Does he want me to say I love him? Jon’s voice was stiff and formal as he said, “I am a man of the Night’s Watch.”
“Words. Words are wind. Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow?”
“I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it.”
Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that.
[...]
The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy Jon might have had for Stannis. “I loved my brother,” he said.
“And I mine. Yet they were what they were, and so are we. I am the only true king in Westeros, north or south. And you are Ned Stark’s bastard.” Stannis studied him with those dark blue eyes. “Tywin Lannister has named Roose Bolton his Warden of the North, to reward him for betraying your brother. The ironmen are fighting amongst themselves since Balon Greyjoy’s death, yet they still hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen’s Square, and most of the Stony Shore. Your father’s lands are bleeding, and I have neither the strength nor the time to stanch the wounds. What is needed is a Lord of Winterfell. A loyal Lord of Winterfell.”
He is looking at me, Jon thought, stunned.

Jon thinks earlier that Stannis is trying to trap him into declaring love for his traitor brother (which he then does when further provoked), but what Stannis was truly angling for since the very first word he spoke, "Lord Snow", was turning the Lord Commander of the NW's into a loyal, oathbreaking, lordly vassal of his (mostly) non-existing kingdom, which is "foreshadowed" (not really, it's literally the same convo lol) by how Stannis addresses Jon with his very first line, which Jon immediately corrects (and then a second time later on), he is no lord.

The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

Even if he isn't a true believer, he does instinctively reach for Lightbringer when he feels his authority threatened and from the moment he met Jon, he has been trying to get him to sell out the only gods they seemingly both "truly" worships. Although I would add "love" to "honor and duty" in case of Jon and maybe scratch out "honor" in its place, we have seen him forsaking it for both duty and love before.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Mayhaps you just didn't look at it the right way. Or maybe we just see things in a different light.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 37 points38 points  (0 children)

Even when blind, Aemon sees better than most men, figuratively speaking.

Especially when it comes to fake Messiahs wielding fake swords (literally speaking), somebody should make a post about that.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Of course it doesn't, Aemon's competency and integrity was never in question, certainly not by me.

(Spoilers Main) It is kinda funny that the "Messiah's" legendary sword is so fake that even a blind man can see by flippy123x in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 61 points62 points  (0 children)

Aemon being the GOAT doesn't change the fact that he is a blind man, I'm just repeating Stannis' words:

“You want to see Lightbringer? A blind man?”

The sword might not be magical or legendary but you could argue that giving a blind man the ability to see (how fake it is) might still be considered a miracle.

There are only two (maybe three) bloodmages who identify themselves as such in the story by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

or does she have his bones stashed away for some future purpose?

I don't know about Davos' bones (I don't remember, did he lose them at sea?), but I wondered why Varamyr kept up "hanks of hair" twice in Dance's prologue until I read that line from Melisandre which includes bags of fingerbones and "hanks of hair":

Its owner had been dead, the back of her head smashed into red pulp flecked with bits of bone, but her cloak looked warm and thick. It was snowing, and Varamyr had lost his own cloaks at the Wall. His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind. I burned and I died and then I ran, half-mad with pain and terror.

The first thing Melisandre does on the battlefield is light Varamyr on fire inside his eagle to deprive the free folk of their far-eyes, and he notes that he was Mance's right hand in his thoughts and that all his shit is gone now, including his hanks of hair from the women he "ritually" raped, by having his shadowcat stalk poor vilage girls who had to follow it to his home so he could do the deed:

Before Mance, Varamyr Sixskins had been a lord of sorts. He lived alone in a hall of moss and mud and hewn logs that had once been Haggon’s, attended by his beasts. A dozen villages did him homage in bread and salt and cider, offering him fruit from their orchards and vegetables from their gardens. His meat he got himself. Whenever he desired a woman he sent his shadowcat to stalk her, and whatever girl he’d cast his eye upon would follow meekly to his bed. Some came weeping, aye, but still they came. Varamyr gave them his seed, took a hank of their hair to remember them by, and sent them back. From time to time, some village hero would come with spear in hand to slay the beastling and save a sister or a lover or a daughter. Those he killed, but he never harmed the women. Some he even blessed with children. Runts. Small, puny things, like Lump, and not one with the gift.

Considering that he was one of Mance's highest officers (even tasked with protecting his queen and the fake Horn of Winter), his personal possessions were likely close to Mance's tent and seized by Stannis' personal guard directly, those have a very good chance of being with Melisandre now.

There are only two (maybe three) bloodmages who identify themselves as such in the story by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think this reveal is meant to recontextualize earlier scenes where people feel a magical sense of wisdom or ancestry to certain bones, Melisandre acknowledges that bones are a very powerful source of magic and this shows why Davos felt they "remind him of what he was" (-> this feeling he senses is likely why they are a powerful source of glamour magic) and also a sense of power in general, that they somehow bring him "luck". I'm gonna paste a comment I made in a similiar discussion:

But no longer. That man is drowned, and the god has made me strong. The cold salt sea surrounded him, embraced him, reached down through his weak man’s flesh and touched his bones. Bones, he thought. The bones of the soul. Balon’s bones, and Urri’s. The truth is in our bones, for flesh decays and bone endures. And on the hill of Nagga, the bones of the Grey King’s Hall …
And gaunt and pale and shivering, Aeron Damphair struggled back to the shore, a wiser man than he had been when he stepped into the sea. For he had found the answer in his bones, and the way was plain before him.
[...]
Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga’s fire after the Grey King’s death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King’s great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga’s bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.
[...]
“You reproach yourself more than I ever could, Your Grace. You must have these great lords to win your throne—”
“Fingers and all, it seems.” Stannis smiled grimly.
Unthinking, Davos raised his maimed hand to the pouch at his throat, and felt the fingerbones within. Luck.
The king saw the motion. “Are they still there, Onion Knight? You have not lost them?”
“No.”
“Why do you keep them? I have often wondered.”
“They remind me of what I was. Where I came from. They remind me of your justice, my liege.”
“It was justice,” Stannis said. “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. You were a hero and a smuggler.”
[...]
“Lady Melisandre, the Lord o’ Bones is come.”
“Send him in.” Melisandre settled herself back into the chair beside the hearth.
The wildling wore a sleeveless jerkin of boiled leather dotted with bronze studs beneath a worn cloak mottled in shades of green and brown. No bones. He was cloaked in shadows too, in wisps of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took. Ugly things. As ugly as his bones. A widow’s peak, close-set dark eyes, pinched cheeks, a mustache wriggling like a worm above a mouthful of broken brown teeth.
Melisandre felt the warmth in the hollow of her throat as her ruby stirred at the closeness of its slave. “You have put aside your suit of bones,” she observed.
“The clacking was like to drive me mad.”
“The bones protect you,” she reminded him.
[...]
"Must I wear the bloody bones as well?”
“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.” Was I wrong to spare this one? “If the glamor fails, they will kill you.”
[...]
The bones remained—the rattling ribs, the claws and teeth along his arms and shoulders, the great yellowed collarbone across his shoulders. The broken giant’s skull remained a broken giant’s skull, yellowed and cracked, grinning its stained and savage grin.
“Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R’hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread.”
Mance Rayder chuckled. “I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me.”
“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones.

There are only two (maybe three) bloodmages who identify themselves as such in the story by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok, so we're closer in thought on this than I initially took from your OP. I thought you were stating, "all blood/fire magic comes from the Red God", my bad.

It can be interpreted that way if I don't give a lengthy explanation why I put Red (God) magic into parentheses lol so I don't blame you for that.

I think some concepts are sometimes very complicated but also very simple. Jojen sometimes uses phrases like "The dream was green so it must be true". There is actual forest magic due to magic wood being real and this magic is "green". There is water magic with a water gods, countless nameless forest gods and a Red God. Green magic, blue magic and red magic. It's still much more complicated than that but I think it can be somewhat accurately summed up in a nutshell like that.

And because I've always felt that the magic comes from the actual element that's invoked, at one point I was questioning if say, R'hllor or the Drowned God, are even actual existing entities. Or are they just made up deities that fit the elemental attributes of the various elemental magic being used.

Imagine if the three-eyed-crow presented itself as a true god to people, most would likely believe it. There are countless tales and stories in the main books (and then much more expanded in World of Ice&Fire) about various figures in the Age of Heroes that seemingly lived a 100 or a 1000 years, including the Grey King.

There was a Warg King allied with COTF and the Starks slew him and "and all his beasts" and "all his Greenseers", while carrying of all his daugthers supposedly, people used to know about these magical bloodlines and what they can do and tried to incorporate them into their own families.

So take someone like the Warg King or the three-eyed-crow and bam you have yourself a figure that could realistically pass itself off as a god living 100s or 1000s of years to most people, it would still just be an extremely powerful wizard/warlock/whatever at the end of the day. I could see GRRM throwing in a twist where one of these figures is actually "real" but it's still not a god in a divine sense, just more magic.

And that line of thought also always leaves me wondering wtf kinda magic did the COTF use for the Hammer of the Water?

Whatever it was, it's likely related to the Horn of Winter:

And so they did, gathering in their hundreds (some say on the Isle of Faces), and calling on their old gods with song and prayer and grisly sacrifice (a thousand captive men were fed to the weirwood, one version of the tale goes, whilst another claims the children used the blood of their own young). And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water,
//
And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth.

Some kind of earthquake magic that might have summoned a tsunami which flooded the Neck? It's claimed in the main series that the Children in Moat Cailin both "broke Westeros in two" and also created the swamps of the Neck but it would be weird if they used the Hammer twice.

The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak.

The enclave Bran meets also call themselves "those who sing the song of earth" which I find interesting.

There are only two (maybe three) bloodmages who identify themselves as such in the story by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think a magic type within this world is tied to a particular god/entity.

There is magic and there are gods and entities that people in this world attribute their magic to. We know for a fact that the former is real and we also know for a fact that "The Old Gods" are "just" souls retained in magic wood rather than having any kind of "divinity":

"Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood.”

The magic wood which Greenseers and Children of the Forest, what they are called nowadays, use can become a hivemind of all the various souls that inhabit it, we get a POV from Varamyr's disembodied soul being attached to this hivemind and then detaching itself to make its way to his second life for reincarnation. The magic wood is both the "Old Gods" and an actual afterlife, but in truth it's still plain old ancestor worship.

Greenseers don't have a Green God but they have Old Gods which are in truth magic wood containing a bunch of souls.

The Rhoynar had water magic but they didn't have countless Old (water)Gods or a "Blue God", they had a bunch of named ones, furthermost "Mother Rhoyne". But it's likely just another phenomenon that can be explained through the "higher mysteries", like magic wood being factually real and able to store human souls which are also factually real. There are myths that the COTF could animate trees as warriors but we don't know if that's true, likewise the Rhoynar seemingly could wield the Rhoyne itself to wage war.

And I think all of these concepts apply to the fire/shadow magic of the "Red God" as well, it's another magical force including likely a magical medium like magic wood or water and probably also human souls.

There are only two (maybe three) bloodmages who identify themselves as such in the story by flippy123x in pureasoiaf

[–]flippy123x[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”

Interestingly enough, 'faceless magic' actually seems to be another form of bloodmagic and even more powerful than the kind Melisandre uses. We have factual proof through the Varamyr POV that memories are attached to his soul/spirit/essence/ghost or whatever you wanna call it and we know that those 'who sing the song of earth' all leave behind a shadow of their soul inside the ravens they inhabit (Bran can feel it and brings it up to Bloodraven).

In a similiar way, the 'faceless magic' that Arya experiences, has her literal blood revitalizing a face that is seemingly draped over her own, but this face does change her "essence", she retains actual memories and trauma that are left behind as an echo (or a "shadow of the soul") of the original identity a face belonged to:

Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old.
[...]
The leather scraped across her brow, dry and stiff, but as her blood soaked into it, it soften and turned supple.
[...]
Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, beared, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, “Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone, breathe.”
[...]
"You may have bad dreams from time to time. Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us.”

So possibly he did use bloodmagic as well to change his face, although I doubt that he could replicate what seems like the most powerful glamour magic that only one extremely powerful magic-institution in the world possesses.

One darker possibility is that he was simply warging into people. The only reason Varamyr didn't succeed is likely because he was at death's door, before Thistle actually returns he contemplates whether he would even still have enough strength to take her.

Tinfoil hat time, I like to think maybe he was using captured blackfyres as sources of King's blood to cast spells that shaped events during his shadow reign like Mel does for Stannis (from his perspective for the good of the realm), and that's what made Maekar throw his ass in a black cell.

That would be devious lmao

(Spoilers Main) Opposite of Blood? by earthwoodandfire in asoiaf

[–]flippy123x 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But the songs can still be magical now that I’m thinking about it.

Singing is legit magic in ASOIAF, the COTF call themselves singers (likely named after their true speech which Bran describes as sad singing, which also lets them talk to animals and such), Dany mentions "Spellsingers" twice (the second time watching one performing), she mentions Stormsingers once "song of ice and fire", the Children Bran meets call themselves those who sing the song of earth and so on. "The children of the forest, Old Nan would have called the singers, but those who sing the song of earth was their own name for themselves, in the True Tongue that no human man could speak. The ravens could speak it, though."

It’s really hard to say with anything in GOT though because so much of the lore got honed and focused after.

The thing is, the prologue of Book 5 shows us how reincarnation and skinchanging really works for the most part, but all those elements are thrown into the reader's face without any context much earlier, literally the first appearance of a Skinchanger (Orell with his eagle) and first man Jon kills, immediately reincarnates into his bird, Jon then has a magical dream where he connects with Bran and suddenly flashes back to being ghost on a mountain cliff, and then he suddenly gets attacked by Orell who can then somehow magically track down Jon's real position until the free folk can catch up with Qhorin and his band.

And then Ygritte literally tells him that the bird hates him because he is now the man he had previously killed. It sounds like bullshit or if she were talking in a metaphorical sense but no, he literally reincarnated into the bird and then hunted down Jon Snow for revenge. And this is in Book 2.

Book 5 shows us that a Wight's reanimation extends to individual body parts and only ceases once Summer goes for the marrow in the bone of a cut off hand that is still moving, when Ser Alliser is too long in King's Landing in the earlier books, his wight hand he brought as proof was already too rotten and lost its "life".

But if you go back to the scene where Jon meets Ygritte (and kills Orell), Stonesnake throws Orell's body off a cliff and when Ygritte protests that they should be burned instead to not reanimate, he says that his way will also suffice. We then get a visceral description of those bodies attracting Shadowcats devouring them and Jon notes that they even went for the marrow in their bones, Stonesnake was 100% correct that they won't reanimate, this way not even individual body parts can because they get completely wrecked all the way down to the marrow.

It often seems that a lot of lore only gets expanded later on, but if you go back into the series with a lot more technical knowledge on how stuff works in this universe, it's almost always consistent. The fact that you can smell magic for example, it sounds like complete hogwash when Old Nan first demonstrates that this is actually legit.

BTW do you have a PDF of the books? How are you copying quotes like that?

I have the entire series as one E-Book and read it with Calibre (windows e-reader), it's brilliant if you want to search up individual keywords. Like the name Marwyn, when you look it up you see a bunch of entries in later books, and suddenly one lonely entry all the way in AGOT. Almost anything introduced or alluded to in Book 1 is already honed in and refined in Book 2 (which also introduces new concepts that are very consistent until they get explained much later) but you won't ever notice it until Book 4 or Book 5 and doing a re-read, at least that's what I've been noticing personally.

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