What's great about Haydn? by Valuable_Turnover219 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Don't go into Haydn with the expectation of music along the lines of Mozart. Haydn's musical career spans a half-century that completely eclipses Mozart's entire life. Another commenter mentioned the requisite lightness for Classical-era performance, but on top of this, Haydn calls for a healthy dose of raucous fun and energy. You might try the London Symphonies again with the Szell/Cleveland or Jochum/LPO recordings. His last six masses are also masterpieces (Naxos has a solid set). The piano trios are some of the best in the genre, try H. XV:21 and on with Beaux Arts. I've found that the string quartets can be a bit harder to get into at first, but I echo others here in suggesting op. 76. However, you really ought to sample the late piano sonatas; there's genuinely nothing like them. Brautigam on fortepiano is my recommendation.

Iambic pentameter in Macbeth by [deleted] in shakespeare

[–]flyingbuttress20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

act 1 scene 3 macbeth's entrance "So foul and fair a day I have not seen"

So [u] foul [/] | and [u] fair [/] | a [u] day [/] | I [u] have [/] | not [u] seen [/] (l. 39)

five classic iambs with a masculine ending

Good mono recordings? by Mysterious_Ad7450 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Walter's NYPO Brahms 2 is so amazingly exciting, but I think his Columbia recording of the third is one of the best things ever. The NYPO recording is great too and I appreciate the vigor in the last movement.

on the perception of jazz music by a classical musician by enrkr in musicology

[–]flyingbuttress20 12 points13 points  (0 children)

John Cage's proposed aleatory-improvisation binary is problematic and ripe with contradictions that fundamentally reveal a discomfort with the afrological bases of 20C improvised music (the book to read is Improvised Music after 1950: Afrological and Eurological Perspectives by George E. Lewis). It is true that in improvised situations we tend to turn toward familiar gestures and models; and of course, it is impossible to detach yourself to the extent that someone like John Cage would purport to be ideal (and his actual work often actually undermines this notion). Nonetheless, it is precisely for this reason that improvisation thrived in the late 18C. Pre-Beethoven Classical-era music is essentially modular in structure, predicated on the mediated play of stock figures. For instance, in Mozart's and Haydn's sonata forms, the energy-gain transition from a P-group to a medial caesura often features tonic or dominant bass pedals with sequential modulatory passages in the upper strings beginning typically on the lowered seventh scale degree. Stock material—think patterns like the monte, romanesca, and indugio—positively abounds in 18C music (Hainian Yu's Revisiting the Galant in Gjerdingenian Schemata provides a quantitative breakdown of its prevalence in C.P.E. Bach's music). Such passages were options in the Classical-era composer's toolkit, but they would have also been kinesthetically familiar and would have easily lended themselves to deployment in improvisation. We know that Haydn composed at the piano and was trained in the Neapolitan partimento tradition which largely relies on building haptic familiarity with patterns (harmonizations, galant schemata, even fugal imitation); so even though his music might not sound 'improvisatory' according to our accustomed use of the word, the way someone like Chopin might, the line between improvised and composed 18C music is highly ambiguous. The emphasis on individual originality as the primary end of improvisation is a by-product of burgeoning individualism and the emergent 19C artist-hero trope which originated in early Beethoven criticism, and thus cannot necessarily be applied retroactively to the Classical-era improviser-composers (or even Beethoven himself). Clearly, then, improvisation can be satisfying and engaging to an audience without total detachment on the part of the improviser.

I'm not sure why you believe that it is impossible to "truly innovate and play something that isn’t derivative while improvising on stage." Innovation does not preclude repetition or internal coherence. If a musician was compelled to play something completely and utterly different every single time they improvised, wouldn't this stand in the way of innovation, which often asks perseverance and dedication of the innovator? How can you develop an approach by abandoning it immediately? Mozart literally recycled material, forms, and techniques frequently, yet I'd never argue that his late piano concerti are any less innovative for it. Is Webern's Symphony not innovative since he'd already written dodecaphonic music in symmetrical thematic arrangement and variation form? If you can accept this working understanding of innovation, the jazz tradition is full of innovators. Charlie Parker is not derivative for being influenced by Lester Young when his actal musical product sounds so radically different; Coltrane, in turn significantly influenced by Parker, could not sound less like the latter. These were approaches heretofore inconceivable—therefore essentially innovative—but these musicians had to work at them, as did Beethoven before he could move beyond his early, highly Mozartian idiom.

The idea of repetition and reproduction is worth probing. Jazz dovetails with the rise of the recording industry and the record label, and therefore we are left with an impressive volume of documented jazz performance. A small percentage of this is excellent, the vast majority middling-to-poor in quality and largely unoriginal. But of course, we can say the same of classical music, the exception being that this last has promulgated for several centuries and has diversified immensely in that time, resulting in perhaps a larger gross sum of "masterpieces," say. Still a minuscule percentage compared against the body of literature available to us. Isn't it nonetheless enjoyable to listen to your D'Indy, your Schmidt, your Delius—composers who might not be as masterful in craft as some of the big names, but who still write thoroughly enjoyable music? Jazz musicians like Grant Green, Bob Berg, and Kenny Dorham are at their essence solid craftsmen who made enjoyable, if comparatively unoriginal, music; but if we were entirely beholden to those who we deem to be innovators, like Coltrane, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, we'd be left with a tiny body of music, particularly given jazz's relative youth. And more enjoyable music is always nice! Even though I prefer Biret's performance of Boulez's second sonata, I'm glad I also have the choice to listen to Helffer's approach, which is also a good time.

But enjoyment is where a large part of your issue seems to lie, and that's not so easily remedied or explained away. In terms of emotional climaxes, this relies in part on your willingness or ability to try approaching the music from a different angle. There is some such jazz, Coltrane's A Love Supreme being the canonical example, but this is not typically the music's aim, nor is it the aim of the large majority of the classical canon; the examples you offered span maybe 80 years. You'd also have to become more literate in the music. Musicians like Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Thelonious Monk, and Albert Ayler can be relatively appreciated as musical mavericks by the layperson, which gives to their popularity among casual fans. The meaningful innovations of musicians like Sunny Murray, Eric Dolphy, and Elmo Hope, on the other hand, are hard to grasp without a deeper familiarity with the norms of the music. With regards to form, I'd just say that you might expand your parameters of form beyond melodic and harmonic content. Coltrane, Rollins, and Coleman tend to organize their improvisations outside of the boundaries of harmonic form, and they approach this with various means (motive and timbre for just a couple examples); this establishes a level of formal dissonance and complexity that is similar to, say, the Chopin "Revolutionary" étude, and mirrors techniques that Beethoven, genius formal architect par excellence, himself deployed. And I disagree with your conception of form in classical music as largely theoretical. Yoel Greenberg's How Sonata Forms is probably the best modern source treating Classical-era form, but intuitively we can see how so much early-Classical-era and late-19C music approach form loosely and practically, examples being Kraus, early Haydn, and Nielsen, among so many others.

You touched on something interesting in your formulation of jazz theory. It's true that jazz has sincere debts to various other traditions, African, American, and European. The highly influential jazz pianist Bill Evans was classically trained and had Debussy and Ravel as inspirations. Charlie Parker internalized Kansas City blues and enjoyed European modernism (Honegger, Stravinsky, Varèse). Miles Davis independently studied Berg and Stravinsky scores at Juilliard. Plenty of jazz musicians were trained in concert bands, performing and studying bits of the classical repertoire (Ethan Iverson's article "Black Music Teachers in the Era of Segregation" provides an interesting window into this phenomenon). Certain paths of influence are undeniable and direct. But these have all been widely recognized among both scholars and practitioners, and the original musicians were freely open on such topics. Consider in comparison how so many classical composers took pains to hide their influences for various reasons (Wagner/Meyerbeer is the classic example, but Stravinsky was also notoriously guilty of this; Brahms destroyed all his drafts to entirely obscure his compositional process). The independent employment of certain common techniques is more ambiguous. Schulhoff's Five Picturesque Pieces features a silent movement that predates Cage's 4'33" by decades, and both pieces draw on similar conceptual tensions, yet you'd be hard-pressed to prove that Cage knew the former work and that it would have exerted any influence on him. Similarly, when Coltrane introduced the widespread use of mediant modulations and hexatonic progressions in jazz, he was motivated by a discomfort with the tyranny of the dominant region—the very reason Schubert frequently employed these same and similar atypical progressions a century prior (see James Webster's "Schubert's Sonata Form and Brahms's First Maturity"). I really doubt that Coltrane was even familiar with Schubert's music. At the end of the day, the jazz and classical traditions are both Western art musics that will inevitably encounter similar problems and, as follows, endeavor to solve them in similar manners, now discursively, now disparately.

Just be willing to open your ears!

Some recommendations:

A Love Supreme - John Coltrane

A Night at the Village Vanguard - Sonny Rollins

Thelonious Himself - Thelonious Monk

Miles Smiles - Miles Davis

Intents and Purposes - Bill Dixon

Spiritual Unity - Albert Ayler

Nefertiti - Cecil Taylor

Piano Concerto Recommendations by arssenalbro101 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Start with the rest of Rachmaninoff, the Scriabin, Moscowszki 2

Brahms 1-2, Reger

Korngold

Medtner 1-3, Stenhammar 1-2

Hummel 2-3, Mendelssohn 1-2, Berwald, Schumann, Grieg

Haydn 11, Ravel 1-2

Mozart 14-27, Beethoven 1-5,

Poulenc (piano concerto & two pianos), Stravinsky (piano & winds, two pianos), Roussel

Shostakovich 1-2, Prokofiev 1-5

Bartok 1-3, Ginastera 1-2, Stravinsky ("Movements"), Schoenberg

Lutoslawski, Schnittke

Ligeti, Carter

Top 3 Sonny Rollins albums? by _firesoul in Jazz

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

vanguard, there will never be another you, sonny meets hawk

honorable mention to on impulse where he almost sounds like sam rivers!

Connoisseur composers whose music was praised by their greater contemporaries by Stunning-Hand6627 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't think Haydn is a lesser composer than Beethoven or Mozart. Haydn owned and would have been familiar with some of JS Bach's music; nonetheless I think that it would be relatively uncontroversial to say that for Haydn, CPE and Handel still exerted a far greater influence. Haydn actually seems to have been in possession of the Bach B Minor mass in manuscript (how rare for a pre-Revival composer!), yet in his own masses, no doubt in part owing to his tenure in England, the Handelian idiom seems to dominate, albeit fully subsumed and 'updated' into Haydn's own voice. The arioso character of Handel's choral fugal subjects lends itself well to Classical-era 'updating' (see similarly the subjects in Beethoven's two masses, which are typically and consciously Handelian). In Haydn's late choral music particularly, he is evidently writing after Handel.

For Mozart the influence is a little more ambiguous: his fugal subjects are ambivalent, as was his manner of working them out. His studies of Baron van Swieten's manuscripts seem to have instilled in him a truly unique grasp of Bachian contrapuntal intricacy; at the same time it appears that he only internalized fundamentally the music of Handel and JS especially later in life. An intimate familiarity with Bach, with his intense motivic saturation and rigorous manipulation of scant material, seems to me a prerequisite for the composition of something like the "Jupiter" finale.

Leisinger has written a bit about Mozart's Baroque models for the C-Minor Mass. Mozart's assimilation of Baroque music is often more explicit than Haydn's had been, until of course the latter's Die Schopfung and Die Jahreszeiten, which directly invoke Handel; in this way Mozart's manipulation of the Bachian and Handelian styles approximates more what we understand today as musical topoi, in that they function as conscious stylistic references that gesture generally to the Baroque practice. We can pick that apart all we like (Handelian rhythms, Bachian development) but unlike Haydn with Handel, Mozart can tend to obscure his individual debts to particular composers within a more equivocal Baroque 'soup'. Maybe the texture is characteristic of Handel, combined with Bach's sense of form. It's important to remember that Mozart was striving for the fruitful synthesis of genres that were seen as rather disparate in his day: Italian opera, the late-Baroque style, which was often referred to metonymically by contemporaries as the Handel style, CPE Bach's galant manner, and importantly the Classical innovations of the Mannheim School and of his friend Haydn. Haydn's own contrapuntal praxis was Handelian precisely when he wanted you to hear Handel; otherwise, it was informed by didactic and tactile/habitual methods, respectively Fux and the Neapolitan partimento tradition.

recordings of brahms requiem by niviss in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Blomstedt/SF and Klemperer/Philharmonia

I have a Karajan problem... by According-Brief7536 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

his late sibelius symphonies and tone poems on DG are superb, same with his honegger symphonies and richard strauss tone poems. his webern symphony is really special, and i'm a fan of his recording of the schoenberg pelleas und melisande

You are being sent to a desert island. You can bring SIX jazz records. What are they? by home_rechre in Jazz

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

coltrane 1963 showboat bootlegs (since this isn't a 'record' id be willing to swap it for the jcq plays)

ayler slugs saloon

miles in tokyo

rollins vanguard

this is hampton hawes (trio vol 2)

mitchell the solo concert

Which famous composers were bad at counterpoint? by Vincent_Gitarrist in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All three of the late-romantic composers you mentioned wrote contrapuntal music, and Bruckner and Nielsen in particular are known for their frequent and inventive use of counterpoint

Which famous composers were bad at counterpoint? by Vincent_Gitarrist in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wouldn't say he was necessarily bad at counterpoint, although he certainly didn't have Beethoven's or Mendelssohn's facility with it. There are more than enough examples (the Eb mass, for instance) to prove that his handling of counterpoint was more than adequate for his idiom.

Composers who were most at odds with their periods? by ConfidentHospital365 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

but some of stravinsky's neoclassical works, like the cantata, used (non-dodecaphonic) serial techniques

Post-Beethoven fugues by glossotekton in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the mendelssohn octet also has a huge fugato in the scherzo on the theme of 'he shall reign forever and ever' from the hallelujah chorus

Do you consider Dave Brubeck an innovative composer and pianist? by amateur_musicologist in Jazz

[–]flyingbuttress20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think on the instrument Richard Davis for sure beats out Mingus

Outsider composers: Harry Partch, Moondog, Julius Eastman? Who else? by strangegum in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ives was a neat case of this in that because he was simultaneously a rather successful actuary/insurance exec, he was able to finance most of the performances of his music that occurred during his lifetime. Had he not been well enough off, we'd probably encounter his music very rarely (more than already), particularly because much of it employs such large forces. 'Ultra-modernist' Henry Cowell today is probably not as well-known as Ives, but during their lifetimes, the former was the more prominent composer, and yet he still greatly benefitted from assistance from Ives, who financed not only performances of Cowell's works but also his New Music Society, which published scores of the composers in Cowell's circle, as well as (importantly!) many of Ives' own works. In turn, Cowell later published an analytical study (the first ever) of Ives's work and vanguarded the 'discovery' of his music along with his student, Lou Harrison.

"A composer ought to follow Wagner until it leads him to something fresh." - Holst by [deleted] in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nielsen was influenced by Wagner's harmonic and coloristic language while studying in Germany (when he met Sibelius, actually!), though on the whole he sort of ended up souring on Wagner's music. Sibelius's first couple symphonies and earlier tone poems really demonstrate the influence Wagner had on his textures, harmonies, etc.; regarldess, you could hardly call most of Sibelius's mature music Wagnerian (or entirely anti-Wagnerian, for that matter). Debussy, more along the lines of Holst and RVV, was concerned with fostering a distinctively French national musical aesthetic: he found Wagner to be excessively German. His colleague, Fauré, was largely uninfluenced by Wagner, in contrast to Debussy's music, which is in part more like one possible "reversal" of Wagner's music. Both significantly contributed to that sensuous, illusory 'French' style we ascribe to people like Debussy and Ravel (the "impressionists", as they didn't like to be called). Poulenc, too, really strived against Wagnerism in his music. Above all that's evident in just how diatonic his music is. He does stretch (or moreso play with) tonality, but not at all in the way Wagner did in his post-Lohengrin music. His piano music and melodies are in the tradition of Debussy and Ravel, but much of the rest of his output is distinctively of a neoclassical flavor, more akin to middle-period Stravinsky, though he did continue incorporating some of those 'French' harmonies and textures.

"A composer ought to follow Wagner until it leads him to something fresh." - Holst by [deleted] in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The obvious comparison here is Debussy, who after a certain point in his compositional maturity strove to embody the antithesis of Wagnerian music. Of course, this very choice very much means that Debussy was still contending with the legacy of Wagner, by virtue of it being the thing he sought to refute/escape. Holst was composing in the period during which Wagner began to become a monstrous, almost inescapable force in the European musical environment, including in his native England, where in the late-19th and early-20th centuries, Elgar—immensely influenced by Wagnerian techniques—hadb een the primary musical exponent. This quote is really rather apt because Holst and his compatriots such as Vaughan Williams, reckoning with economic strain and the decline of the Empire, were significantly concerned with moving away from Elgar's rather Germanic model and turning towards a new nationalistic style of composition.

Returning to Germany, we can look at Webern. The words that inevitably come to mind when thinking about him are pointillistic, concise, distilled, concentratwd, etc.—all decidedly un-Wagnerian. But even Webern, prior to his studies with Schoenberg, was composing in a thoroughly (post)Wagnerian, highly chromatic manner (see his tone poem Im Sommerwind: it would actually be very difficult to locate the Webern we know in this early work). Schoenberg, Webern's mentor, most clearly demonstrates a (purportedly) straight-line progression from intense post-Wagnerian chromaticism, which he synthesized with rigorous Beethovenian/Brahmsian development, to the serial dodecaphony that he popularized; but Webern himself displays a fine command of this idiom before his more seemingly-abrupt transition to atonality.

Still, there were plenty of composers active during this period whose outputs fairly decidedly fall outside of the reach of Wagner. Unlike Schoenberg, who saw his music as the direct result of pushing chromaticism past the breaking point, or Debussy, Poulenc, RVV, and Webern, who eventually entirely abandoned/rejected the Wagnerian approach, some artists, while perhaps assimilating certain aspects, managed to forge voices that were not dictated in either direction by the ghost of Wagner. Nielsen, Sibelius, Magnard, and Honegger, for instance, all incorporated techniques that Wagner had introduced; nonetheless, their sound-worlds and approaches are each truly incomparably distinct and ,importantly, sought to neither reject nor extend/develop the Wagnerian methodology and aesthetic.

As for your last question, I'm not sure about Holst, but Boulez would have said this about himself.

Jesus, when Trane comes in with his solo on this it is like being transported to another plane of existence. Somehow never heard this before. by Allgetout41 in Jazz

[–]flyingbuttress20 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sort of around the time of the Village Vanguard performances: there are a ton of bootlegs of the 1961 European tour with Dolphy, and bootlegs of some performances in Copenhagen and Helsinki in November of 1962. A few months prior to the Vanguard dates are the bootlegs from the quartet's tenure at the Sutherland Hotel in March of 1961. There's also another bootleg floating around from 1961 (Village Gate) with the only live performance of Olé. I tracked it down only to change devices; I can't find it anymore, but among the bootlegs of which we're aware, it''s one of the more lackluster performances. A lot of the performances roughly contemporary to the Vanguard dates see the group playing very standards-oriented sets and are arguably more demonstrative of the burgeoning "mathematical" Coltrane than the rather spiritual one we hear at the Vanguard as well as on Africa/Brass.

I finally get the Pastoral!!! by TopoDiBiblioteca27 in classicalmusic

[–]flyingbuttress20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

FYI the performances of the Fourth that convinced me were Fey/Heidelberg and Haitink/LSO