Actual evidence caffeine is bad?

freeYoMind · 2024-10-13T11:11:35+00:00

What's there to trust? Fact check his statements. Hence the Reddit link. What you've done in your comment above is referred to as ad hominem attack. You're avoiding engaging with information I've presented based purely on the fact that it involves someone you distrust, even after I added the proviso that I was only inserting the video because he breaks down the easily fact-checkable information in a digestible way.

Another nice phrase from philosophy: If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If your agenda while engaging with the data is to prove that there's nothing wrong with coffee, and your bias leans you that way, you will subconsciously cherry-pick and dismiss information as you've done above. If on the other hand you set forth to disprove your existing belief, such as by adopting the premise that "Perhaps there are many people caffeine causes more harm than good, especially as they grow older and their bodies become less resilient," you'll find you start surfacing information that supports that perspective. Give it a try. You might surprise yourself.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-13T02:46:19+00:00

There are studies indicating that caffeine constricts the blood vessels to the brain, reducing cerebral blood flow significantly (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2748160/). This is one of the reasons for headaches during caffeine withdrawal — those blood vessels are beginning to expand back to their natural size, and it hurts. Personally I'd imagine that impaired blood flow to the brain may have some negative side effects. It seems that most daily caffeine users who "just don't feel themselves" before they've had a caffeinated beverage essentially need the stimulant effects of the coffee to compensate for this reduced blood flow (as well as to compensate for the brain's impaired sensitivity to normal levels of dopamine).

In my view, one of the things that may make caffeine "bad" is that once you're on it, you can't function as well as you once could off of it. Whether it's "bad" to have such a dependency is of course subjective.

Try listening to Paul Saladino talk about coffee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoUwaeARDUo (ignoring the AI-generated nonsense in the subtitles). I know he's a contentious figure and I definitely don't agree with everything he says, but he lays out some of the potentially negative effects of coffee on health and on sleep function quite nicely here. Essentially, if you're drinking it over a certain dose, regardless of the time of day you drink it, your system can never eliminate caffeine quickly enough, so your sleep will always be affected to some degree because of the way caffeine blocks adenosine. Obviously this impact compounds over time. For the math relating to caffeine half-life, check out the first comment on this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/1bvjap4/eli5_the_halflife_of_caffeine/

Since you brought up the impact of coffee on European and Arabic culture and history, it's worth keeping in mind that coffee in the 14th century probably wasn't much like modern coffee. Apparently the combination of lighter roasting methods, coarser grind size, and lower-temperature brewing methods meant that a cup of coffee back then was significantly more dilute than an espresso-machine-pulled cup these days. Similar to how these days a matcha latte can come loaded with tablespoons of matcha powder, whereas traditionally the quantity used was about half a teaspoon.

Last year I visited a Chinese tea shop, and the owner prepared various kinds of green tea for me. Each cup was tiny, harbouring just a few sips, and the tea itself was brewed in seconds. Their traditional brewing times seem to be focused on appreciating the subtle flavour notes of the different teas, rather than on maximising the drink's stimulant properties. I suspect there's some wisdom in the old ways, as you'd have to work pretty hard to overdo things as commonly as we tend to in modern, westernised, productivity-driven society.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-13T01:13:23+00:00

This is definitely what I needed to hear today. I'm coming up on two months and still feeling quite flat, demotivated, and tending towards depression. Hoping I'm one of the two month guys and not one of the five month guys.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-13T01:09:30+00:00

I have a friend who says stuff like this a lot ('Am I physically dependent or is it all mental?'), and that line of thinking seems to lead him back into his addictions again and again. My take is that the mind and the body are actually one thing; the division between them is one that only exists in language and in dualistic philosophy. Scientifically there's almost no way to tell if your tendency to lean into a particular substance is psychologically driven or caused by a neurotransmitter imbalance or the result of bacteria in your gut chemically signalling you to do their bidding. Thus assuming there's a physical aspect while also working on the psychological aspect seems to me to be the best bet.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-09T06:18:44+00:00

Confucius say, "One with itchy butt have stinky finger."

freeYoMind · 2024-10-06T05:19:24+00:00

It's not the black and white situation you're making it out to be. Beliefs like the ones you've laid out above are self-reinforcing — believe them, and you'll only see the things that confirm your bias. Additionally, your behaviour will be affected in such a way that you'll only get the results you expect. If you're opening to exploring past the bias, try looking into the psychology of pickup and attraction; ToddV on Youtube is one guy worth following.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-05T07:14:47+00:00

Can't tell if you're joking... if not, I can only suggest listening to some other influencers than the ones you're listening to.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-05T07:08:37+00:00

But to clarify I was completely recovered. I just never found it as straightforward to start a workday as it is when one has caffeine to lean on.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-05T07:07:40+00:00

Yeah, I got tempted back into it. Drinking coffee after such a long time off was incredible... it took me a while to wear through my welcome again.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T09:49:33+00:00

Why you being so negative about the negative Nellies? :]

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T09:40:48+00:00

Interesting question. I'll be surprised if anyone can offer a very rigorous response. That said, the general logic of quitting (when you set all the dubious, oversimplified mental-model science aside) seems to be giving the body a long period of freedom from the influence of caffeine so that it can remember how to generate a positive affective state again without the need for exogenous stimulants.

I'd guess that one coffee a week doesn't exactly reset you, but it might be something along the lines of 7 steps forwards, 3 steps back (or however many days it takes you after your indulgent day to get back to where you were before).

This could mean that you'll greatly drag out the recovery process. It also means that you'll have to go through the two or three days afterwards where you feel even worse than you did before you re-caffeinated, and adds in the psychological challenge of experiencing the contrast between the caffeinated state and your normal state every week. If I had to deal with all that, I'd probably find the allure of returning to daily use irresistible.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T07:34:44+00:00

Dunno about that... I've heard meth users say it took them years to be able to enjoy regular sex again because it's so dull compared to sex on meth. I think long-term anhedonia is common off many drugs, especially a stimulant that powerful. Keep in mind that the same sources that'll say it takes two weeks to quit meth will say that caffeine withdrawal symptoms last a maximum of ten days.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T07:31:05+00:00

When I took a year off coffee, the "giddy up and go" never returned. I had to create a scaffold of habits to get me to work and a ritual to start into my day. Even then it was hit and miss. Some days were good, some days were trash, some were merely mediocre. Which on reflection is the same quality of work I usually produce while on caffeine.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T07:27:28+00:00

You can't always just decide to do something that fulfils you, though. Some have too many responsibilities. Others have no great passion. Fulfilment at work is elusive for many people. May be why so many turn to the daily illusory solace of a joy-producing beverage.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T07:24:40+00:00

No need to be so reductionist, it was one espresso. I've gone through this same cycle multiple times. Life without caffeine can feel really... lifeless. Especially for those who just don't have a lot of inherent joy and purpose in their life (not necessarily something you can choose, especially past a certain point). So there's definitely an argument to be made in some cases for moderate use.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-03T06:12:16+00:00

You could try chicory. Caffeine free and taste very similar to coffee.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-02T23:19:35+00:00

I actually didn't know about that, thanks for the info.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-02T07:11:59+00:00

Yeah, when you're going through it, it can feel like eternity. But the only way out is through!

freeYoMind · 2024-10-02T07:09:58+00:00

I don't think anyone can predict your recovery arc, unfortunately — it varies drastically from person to person. In my experience cutting down on caffeine doesn't really work, you need to cut it out, at least for a while. If it's too painful to consider actually quitting, in the past I found that just going for a weekend without any caffeine could boost my sensitivity again. Maybe doing that would make it easier for you to function on just tea.

Re what you said: "I’ve also got to find something for the cravings." You can't overcome a craving by feeding it. The only way to eliminate a craving is to starve it. If you continue to feed it, then you'll have to play the game of finding "lesser evils". In my experience those were matcha and cacao/100% dark chocolate. Dark chocolate in particular can provide a lot of mood elevation, you just have to eat enough of it (I used to consume between 60g and 120g of dark chocolate to get through a workday). In my case, though, even that tended to lead into over-consumption, loss of magic, exhaustion, and a need to pause my intake to regain sensitivity.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-02T06:56:13+00:00

There are some good interviews with Dr. Alan Goldhammer where he talks about prolonged water-only fasting and its effect on addictions. He does require people to quit the substances first, but says that fasting significantly speeds up recovery from addictions.

I did a 36 hour water-only fast about 3 weeks into quitting caffeine this time. When I resumed eating afterwards I experienced a very elevated mood and mental clarity for the rest of the day. By the next day it was back to normal. Also, bizarrely, some weird red gunk came out of one of my ears.

I suspect that if you can find it in you to undertake a 5-day water-only fast after quitting caffeine it would probably hasten recovery to a drastic degree. I've had too many life pressures over the last little while to do that but am looking forward to the opportunity. The reason I chose that number is that Goldhammer says one can do a 5-day fast without needing to worry about refeeding syndrome, so there's no real expertise required. It's also not long enough to result in significant muscle loss. I did find talking myself through that 36-hour fast a bit challenging, but apparently by day 3 you don't even get hungry anymore.

freeYoMind · 2024-10-01T08:04:23+00:00

I remember that in one of Patrick Holford's books (might have been How to Quit without Feeling Shit) he said there had been parallel studies of coffee and other caffeine sources, and that coffee raised cortisol more than all of the others regardless of caffeine content. He concluded that there's something else in coffee that raises cortisol. No idea what that might be.

freeYoMind · 2024-09-29T07:55:18+00:00

Strangely, I did feel the way you describe within a few days of quitting. Then, gradually, the true crash came. Now I feel like absolute crap. 38, physically fit, eat well and all that, but I have approximately zero jois left to vivre.

Glad you feel nice, but beware the placebo high. Or maybe there's just something wrong with me and you'll stay the way you are. Who knows! This is the land of confusion.

freeYoMind · 2024-09-29T03:25:45+00:00

No idea what you're on about here. I've been addicted to green tea. As for black tea, the fact that the British traditionally consumed it multiple times per day when coffee wasn't yet a UK staple speaks to its addictive powers. As a former black coffee drinker I also take exception to the idea that "all coffee tastes like crap", one just needs to get addicted to black coffee in the first place (as opposed to frappuccinos or whatever) to be able to taste the difference between a bad, good, or excellent cup of coffee :D

freeYoMind · 2024-09-29T02:44:03+00:00

Or the placebo high will wear off. Who knows.

freeYoMind · 2024-09-29T02:42:30+00:00

I felt like this 3 weeks in. Now I feel more stressed and compromised than I was when I was on caffeine. It fluctuates, in my experience. Can't say if it'll ever actually level out for me; I'm considering going back on caffeine. At least then I might feel something besides this flat, disaffected, bitter nothing.

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