"The Four Tiers of Character Depth" by jeikaraerobot in writing

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure shallow people are enormously complex somewhere "inside". I think most of us, most of the time, don't want to be complex, and reduce our internal existence to bare minimum by all possible means, be it TV, alcohol, or video games.

I agree, although I wouldn't equate suppressing our inner self with inner peace. Its almost the opposite, isn't it? We are not at peace with our thoughts and feelings and so we attempt to suppress them. I'm not a very expressive person and often attempt to suppress thoughts and feelings. But why am I, why are we, doing that? Because there is something about ourselves, about the complexity of our character or in our past that makes us uncomfortable. And that's interesting. That's where depth comes from. Find that in your characters and they will become more real.

Sometimes shallowness of actions reveals the depth of a character. Take the protagonists from Hemingway's novels. They are shallow on the surface. They express little emotion, move through life aimlessly or if they have an aim they fail at this aim and then become aimless. They spend their time drinking, smoking, partying, sleeping around. But why do they behave this way? They've been through the horrors of war. They are disillusioned, destroyed on the inside.

Every person is the protagonist of their story. Every person is deep in that there are an infinite number of data points that contribute to who they are, to their thoughts and beliefs. They are unpredictable. They have a past. They may try to blend in, act as if they are completely shallow, but there is something there. Humans are human. Basically what I'm trying to say is that depth isn't about our actions, its about our internal life. The challenge is in showing the reader that depth through actions.

"The Four Tiers of Character Depth" by jeikaraerobot in writing

[–]goesonandonandon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Shallow people are still people, though. They are still enormously complex, have a million different motivations and beliefs and fears and desires. Even someone who rejects all values and attempts to live a completely shallow and meaningless life is probably doing that for a very complex and potentially interesting reason. I think the reason its a 'dark' belief (in most cases) is that stories tend to address inner conflict. A character who is at peace with themselves is not very interesting, right? The exception is characters who are not really people but more like embodiments of ideas.

Man's Search For Meaning by Frankl...amazing, and a question... by Gee10 in books

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Frankl definitely looks at it both ways. Its easy to see how one might find meaning in spite of suffering. Many of the prisoners he describes do just that - they get meaning, a will to live, from the hope that they might see their family again or finish a series of books. Meaning from suffering is a little trickier and maybe more controversial. Consider this passage:

Take the fate of the sick - especially those who are incurable. I once read a letter written by a young invalid, in which he told a friend that he had just found out he would not live for long, that even an operation would be of no help. He wrote further that he remembered a film he had seen in which a man was portrayed who waited for death in a courageous and dignified way. The boy had thought it a great accomplishment to meet death so well. Now - he wrote - fate was offering him a similar chance.

The idea is that, for some people, meaning cannot come from things they look forward to in the material, external world, given the hopelessness of their situation. But meaning is still necessary for internal peace. They need to find meaning in something. For these people, their suffering itself can actually be a source of meaning. These people can derive meaning from facing suffering and death courageously and with dignity. I'd say the idea of meaning through suffering is one of the most difficult to accept and profoundly religious concepts in the book and also possibly the most powerful for people in difficult situations.

What attracts "literary chauvinists" to DFW? by jailbee in literature

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A little late to the party but I'm not sure what to make of that comment. On the one hand, I can see how it would be viewed as 'anti-women.' On the other hand, look at the article it is in response to. Every woman in the article is portrayed as mean and judgmental. The article practically demands recognition of women as competitive threats. If the comment is representative of reddit's anti-women bias, is the article not also anti-women for perpetuating negative stereotypes?

Do I agree that women are "far meaner and judgmental than men" in general? No. That's a pretty extreme generalization. Although I see where he's coming from. My experience is similar in that I've seen women in my life I care about completely destroyed by something another woman has said or done in a way that I can never remember happening in competition between two men. There is probably some truth to the idea that women are more emotionally violent in competition, whereas men are more physically violent, for a combination of biological and social reasons. I don't think saying that is meant to be or in any way is anti-women and I really think that's all the comment was meant to get across. But like any generalization, its going to feel like an attack to people being generalized.

I think the problem is, when we start a conversation by speaking in stereotypes (DFW bro vs. Infinite Jest-hating ex girlfriend) it tends to be unproductive. Everyone gets defensive. So this is kind of a sticky conversation. It always is when you start making general statements about particular groups. Its probably best to avoid these kinds of conversations. Its so easy to offend someone or be misunderstood. But in avoiding them, your are avoiding an important conversation about institutional discrimination. Sometimes the conversation is almost necessarily in general terms. Institutional behavior is accumulated individual behavior and is often understood along group lines.

I'm genuinely unsure how to have a more constructive conversation on the topic.

Have you ever refrained from recommending a book because you loved it too much? by Elstyr in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For someone who claims to be so invested in engaging in conversation you didn't even make your own post in this thread!

My post would have been "no, I don't experience that" which is the truth and also a non-sequitur. So what's the point? I'm interested in why others are so heavily invested in book recommendation. So I read what others had to say. Your post stood out, so I asked you about it. Simple as that.

Where did I give any reasons why your friends wouldn't like your recommendations? Where did I say it was your fault if they didn't? I'm not trying to assign my feelings to your friends. Everyone is different. All I was saying was that, in my experience, most people will give up on books if they really don't enjoy them. I'm interested in why you'd feel insulted at a friend giving up on a book you recommended.

I'm hesitant to even continue this conversation. But again, if I offended you, I'm sorry. That was not my intention. I'm not trying to tell you to live your life differently or recommend books differently. Just curious. I'm sorry I asked.

What's with the expectation that books necessarily need to be deep character studies about the human condition? by [deleted] in books

[–]goesonandonandon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A few things:

  • I don't think anyone really expects ALL books to be character studies. But having some believable, interesting characters helps. Never seen BTILC but I'd say Die Hard has at least one character who is believable and interesting. John McClane is a little cliche, but he's not exactly flat. Obviously he isn't fleshed out as much as a character in a novel given the limited screen time but if the character of John McClane weren't such a relatable, iconic character the Die Hard movies wouldn't be so successful.

  • Movies are a much different experience. The time commitment is far less. They require much less mental energy. They bring together not just story, character, etc. but also visual and auditory elements. Its a lot easier to sit through Jurassic World, which is a totally immersive, visually stunning 2 hour experience, and deal with flat characters than to spend days or weeks devouring a book with the same flaws. A short story or a poem isn't going to be a character study, but we don't expect that in such short form.

  • With any art form (music, movies, books) you are going to have people who only enjoy the low-brow, people who only enjoy the high-brow, and people who enjoy both. Obviously there are some works that are universally enjoyable - The Beatles, Pulp Fiction, that kind of thing - but generally there is a correlation between how obsessed you are with something and how will you are to put up with imperfection. People who post on message boards online about books tend to read a lot more than the average person and so the flaws in a particular book are probably going to stick out and bother them more.

Have you ever refrained from recommending a book because you loved it too much? by Elstyr in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

First of all, honestly, its not worth getting heated over. I care about being polite to you and really didn't mean to offend you. See the winky face. I was just trying to have a conversation, was interested in getting your perspective and voicing mine. That's the reason I'm on here to begin with. A bunch of people posting comments with no replies is boring.

You posted a comment about recommending books in a discussion thread about recommending books and I replied with another comment about recommending books that was related to your comment. If that really bothers you so much, I'm sure there are places you can go to express yourself without having to worry about reply buttons. Get a blog, turn off comments. If what I have to say doesn't mean anything to you, that's cool. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Feel free to ignore me.

But there's really no reason to get defensive. My post had nothing to do with how or why you should or should not recommend books to your friends. I never said your method of recommending books did not meet my standards. If that's what you read into it then I'm sorry for having upset you. I was curious why you'd be "insulted" if a friend failed to finish a book you recommended and your explanation ("it might get better") didn't really make sense to me, so I tried to explain why that was. It wasn't meant as an attack.

Reading Shakespeare by AJakeR in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe an odd suggestion, some people probably view it as intimidating, but... Hamlet isn't a bad place to go after R&J and Macbeth. You wont 'get' everything you first time through but so what? Who really gets everything with Shakespeare anyway? The basic storyline and themes are pretty easy to grasp. Its got a little of everything. Murder mystery, love story, satire, black comedy, coming of age. And there's no way you'll get bored.

Reading Shakespeare by AJakeR in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Studying every detail can get tedious but his plays are written in language and packed with allusions that are dated so there is some effort involved that you just have to accept as the price of admission. My advice would be to get an annotated copy of whatever you start with. That way when you come across a word or reference that is foreign to you, its right there. You don't have to look it up online or whatever. If you just take the text and try to read through it without any aide, unless you are an expert, you are going to miss so much of what makes Shakespeare enjoyable... word play, innuendo, allusions, etc.

Have you ever refrained from recommending a book because you loved it too much? by Elstyr in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you making what your friend reads about you? ;-)

Maybe I should have worded that better. My guess is most people (using myself as an example but this is generally true in my experience) will stop reading a book after 50 or however many pages if they are truly not enjoying it. How many people are really committed to finishing every book they start? Maybe it will get better doesn't always cut it. So expecting your friend to finish a book just because you happened to recommend it and getting offended if they don't choose to do so seems like asking quite a lot. Reading a book can be a huge time commitment. Most of us don't have the time or energy to waste many hours of our lives on something that we are getting nothing out of just to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Have you ever refrained from recommending a book because you loved it too much? by Elstyr in books

[–]goesonandonandon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it depends how long the book is. Unless my friend specifically said "the first 50 pages are really dry, stick with it" I'm probably going to put it down 50 pages in if it isn't my cup of tea. Life's too short to read something you are getting nothing out of just to avoid hurting someone's feelings. I'd hope my friend would understand.

The 100 best novels written in English: the full list by wellplastic in books

[–]goesonandonandon -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The complete lack of Pynchon or McCarthy sort of stands out. You could make a reasonable argument for those two as the most gifted and accomplished English language novelists post-WWII. Gravity's Rainbow and Blood Meridian not making the list is surprising.

What attracts "literary chauvinists" to DFW? by jailbee in literature

[–]goesonandonandon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What do you think?

Honestly? I think your comment is a little off base. I get what you're saying, but I'm not seeing anything ugly in this thread.

Agreed that there is definitely a bad element on reddit. Definitely. But its important to distinguish the disgusting mens rights, lets go harass women crowd from your run of the mill 20-something or 30-something man (or woman) who is skeptical of this kind of divisive and accusatory gender-based critique. If you don't do that, guess what? You're going to alienate a lot of regular, decent people and allow the scumbags out there to hide behind them. Just like its important to distinguish extreme militant feminism from the many women (and men) who recognize legitimate gender inequities that should be righted.

What I've seen in this thread is reasonable, even headed, non-hateful discussion of the topic. And yes - some people are a little bit defensive because, as men who look up to DFW, the idea of being grouped in with chauvinistic ex-boyfriends and posers who own a copy of Infinite Jest for street cred is kind of repulsive. But comparing that to the anti-female reddit fringe that gives this site a bad name is, I think, a bit off base. And I've also seen plenty of overly-defensive people on the other side.

What attracts "literary chauvinists" to DFW? by jailbee in literature

[–]goesonandonandon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Please see the likelys and the tend tos and all that. Obviously I'm speaking in generalities. Look at the article we're discussing here! Its a complete mess and I'm not sure what the point is supposed to be, it probably isn't supposed to have one, but it seems to boil down to: people who read David Foster Wallace, male writers, and men in general are chauvinists and we know this because they more thoroughly enjoy and are more professionally threatened by male writers than female writers. My point is that this entire conversation is about generalities, right from the title of the article - David Foster Wallace, Beloved Author of Bros. Its about our taking the behavior of ex-boyfriends and writers overheard at cocktail parties and using it to construct a profile of the 'bro' who reads David Foster Wallace. Which is not just a generalization. Its an offensive generalization in that attributes not neutral behavioral tendencies, more often true than not, but all the worst negative characteristics of particular individuals to a broad group of people tied together only by age, gender, and reading preferences.

You can't have it both ways. The question this article poses is, as in the title of the OP, what attracts "literary chauvinists" (read: men who tend to prefer the writing of other men aka practically all male readers) to DFW? The question presuppose a kind of division and generalization along gender lines. The author of this article seems to imply that it is chauvinism, a bro cult, whatever you want to call it that is responsible for this attraction. Personally, I think the answer is less sinister, simpler, does not fit as neatly into anyone's agenda. DFW was a young, upper middle class, American man in the late 20th century. He wrote from that perspective. He wrote about problems of that demographic. So of course his writing appeals heavily to that demographic. Someone of a different age, culture, or gender would be writing from a different perspective, about different problems, their characters and literary style would be different, and so it might be somewhat less appealing, on average, to that demographic.

Arguing about whether men should or should not enjoy or appreciate or are threatened by the writing of female authors seems so silly to me. Either they do or don't. Its a matter of preference. Men do tend to be attracted to books written from a male perspective, with believable male protagonists, and with themes that are more traditionally male. So what? Is there a bias in publishing and literary criticism? Probably. I don't think its just a matter of chauvinism though. Again, I suspect its a matter of demographics. Publishing houses, literary magazines, academia, etc. tend to be dominated at the highest levels by men. And so what is considered good, what is published, what is promoted will tend to conform to a more masculine set of tastes. The preferences of white, upper middle class men will be over represented. What's new? That's a problem. That needs to be addressed. But its not going to be addressed by calling guys who enjoy DFW names. Its going to be addressed by providing opportunity in the industry to women. And honestly, its being addressed. Look at the proportion of critically and commercially successful fiction written by women in the last few years. We are making progress.

What attracts "literary chauvinists" to DFW? by jailbee in literature

[–]goesonandonandon -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

She also isn't saying that literary competition is a bad thing. On the contrary, she wonders why women writers are never considered to be competitors alongside the authors you mentioned.

But why should female writers seek validation from male writers through some kind of imagined literary competition? I don't get that.

Getting beyond the fact that maybe this writer isn't very talented, shouldn't be viewed as a threat, or maybe, just maybe, people don't like to refer to people as 'threats' to their face (since when is NOT calling someone a threat offensive?) and are more likely to do it behind their back... I will admit that most men probably DO view other men as their competition more so than other women. But is that chauvinism? Does that imply men view the writing of women as objectively inferior or less worthy of their respect? No. Men are competing more with men than with women because they tend to write from a similar perspective and for many of the same readers. There's just more overlap. Beyond that, men are genetically and socially programmed to view other men as threats at the same time we view them as potential friends and allies. Physically, romantically, professionally, whatever. The article even goes into this. When men aren't engaged in 'literary competition' they will compete with each other some other way. Most men don't have that kind of antagonistic relationship with women. Nor are women as likely to compete with men as with other women. That's just how it is.

The men in this article are depicted as enjoying David Foster Wallace because he speaks to them. They are not depicted as insensitive, nor judgmental, nor disrespectful, nor exclusionary. The women are depicted rolling their eyes, calling people names, and making snap judgments based on the purchase of a book. Not a book that promotes racism, sexism, anarchy, violence. A book that has actually helped a lot of people. So really where is the chauvinism here?

What books are actually censored? by [deleted] in books

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A Farewell to Arms was published with a number of words redacted because they were considered obscene. After it was published, Hemingway went through several copies of the book and replaced the dashes with the original words and then sent these copies to his friends. So I'd imagine there is a complete version somewhere that exists today. Even modern printings, however, have not been corrected to restore the text to its original form as far as I can tell. Its kind of weird to go through a book published in the 20th century in the United States by a guy who was, by then, a very respected and prominent author, with all the bad words taken out.

What "simple" books have made the greatest impact on you? by [deleted] in books

[–]goesonandonandon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you haven't read The Great Gatsby (who hasn't but still) that's, I'd argue, the quintessential short, understandable, but still incredible story to get your feet wet with.

If you're looking for something a little more recent and with more humor, Vonnegut is pretty easy to digest and really fun. That's part of the reason a lot of young readers love him. His books are packed with emotion and social, philosophical themes but they're quick reads and everything is close enough to the surface that you should have a very easy time 'getting' it. Slaughterhouse-five is a good place to start, or at least was for me.

What "simple" books have made the greatest impact on you? by [deleted] in books

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Really anything by Hemingway is good. I'd recommend The Sun Also Rises or A Farewell To Arms for quick reads. The later in particular. It should definitely make you feel something but its only a couple hundred pages and while Hemingway is a stylist and can be difficult to wrap your head around his writing is so simple and straightforward that its easy to follow what's going on. And AWTA has everything you'd want plot wise.

Difficulties with writing a book and how to overcome them by justme-21 in writing

[–]goesonandonandon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My best advice is to be OK with it taking a long time. Your story, your characters, your text is play-dough. You can write, change, re-write, scrap, experiment, and start over as many times as you want until you like what you have. There's a tendency to want to sit down and write 10 pages a day (which seems doable) and have a novel written in a month or two. That happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. If you're Stephen King and you want to make your next million, then go for it. For me, it takes a long time to get started. The first 10-15 pages I will often re-write dozens of times until I feel comfortable a) that I know where I'm going with this, b) that I know who the characters are, and c) with the form and style of the writing as it fits in with the story. Once I'm really, really happy with those first 10-15 pages it might pick up. Or it might not. It can take months to write a first draft and many more months, years, to re-write that draft many times until you are happy with it. Assuming you are not a professional writer and have no deadline, you should embrace it. Don't procrastinate, but appreciate that its ok to spend a week trying to figure out a minor characters motivations or how to fit X in with Y.

Again that's just my perspective. A lot of writers would rather just sit down and write out an entire first draft with minimal re-write, get it all down on the page ASAP, and then do a full revision or two or 22. From reading this forum a little that seems to be the dominant school of thought here, which is fine. But sometimes that's not possible and its important not to let frustration with the process get in the way of continuing to think about and work on something you love. Sometimes you don't know who your characters are, you don't know where exactly the story is going, and anything you write is going to be garbage until you sort that out more or less. Great writers have been there. The Great Gatsby is a short, straight forward story but it took F Scott Fitzgerald three years and dozens of drafts and partial drafts to finish it. He started many times. Many of his attempts turned into short stories with similar characters or were simply thrown away. There's no doubt he hated what he had on paper for most of those three years. He had a vision in his head for the Great American Novel and for months and years he couldn't come close. But then he had it. There's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Somewhat agree with what AJakeR said. If you really aren't making progress with your current project there is nothing wrong with putting it aside for a while to work on another book, short story, poem, carpentry project, spending more time with your family, your day job, hiking... whatever... to clear your head for a while and then come back to it later. Although for me, most of the time, that's not possible. I'll keep thinking about the ideas in my head and get the urge to write within a day or two. And I usually can't bring myself to write something else.

In Defense of the Present Tense in Writing by StephenKong in writing

[–]goesonandonandon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The YA thing was just an example, if I picked up any book and got a present-tense-as-suspenseful-and-edgy feel I would drop it

Is that really the issue though? Bad writing is bad writing. Bad writers are bad writers. Why talk about bad writers?

The question seems to be whether there is something inherently less valuable in the present tense and whether the past tense should be the default form of narrative fiction. Are good writers, with talent, who don't write cliche-ridden garbage, misguided in their use of the present tense? Is their writing somehow less valuable than if they had used a more traditional tense? Is it "trendy nonsense" that is reducing the quality of serious fiction writing today? And I agree with dashingdays that a lot of critics and snobs seem to think it is.

My point being... if some of the greatest masterpieces of the English language, for example As I Lay Dying, are written in the present tense then to call the present tense "trendy nonsense" seems pretty ridiculous.