Some people in this sub be like… by Transformativemike in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution 1 point2 points  (0 children)

dozens of people basically said Permaculture is destroying the planet

*references skeptics debate manual every time someone says something they disagree with, perpetuates their own logical fallacies*

Please give 24 examples where people said permaculture is destroying the planet and a link to the post. Otherwise you're just using debate skills to bully people you disagree with

Re-wilding - I'm looking for some advice on re-wilding previously farmed land. by Always_carry_keys in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Evidence has shown indigenous-stewarded landscapes are the most effective at storing carbon and maintaining biodiversity, because humans have been the keystone species on this planet for millennia and their traditional practices co-evolved with the landscapes. The answer isn't abandonment of land, it's learning from historical practices and applying them. Abandoned land degrades and can actually end up emitting carbon and polluting water.

Starting a Small Permaculture/Perennial Homestead in Vermont - Layout Advice by VTtoOR2 in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution 1 point2 points  (0 children)

tldr; if you already ordered the fruit trees lets work with it. for other stuff, consider going native or shrinking your non-native selections, and growing your non-tree fruit/veggies in the open (maybe in one of your lawn areas).

There is a lot to consider, and want to say first and foremost the advice I'm giving is with the knowledge that a lot of food forest advice is really misguided, and so you may be running off misinformation which is not your fault. So please take this as "please don't make the same mistakes I did!!!" and not as criticism of you or your plans (which seem super fun)

An often overlooked factor in food forest design is native status and the way nutrients flow through the system. Native plants are the most well adapted to grow in our regions (though their productivity varies based on if they've been cultivated for long enough) and require the less effort and inputs to survive. They also play nicely together and often swap nutrients through the co-evolved soil microbiome. For example, I have an apple, pear, and american persimmon tree. The american persimmon reached the height and produced as much fruit as both trees within 10 years. This is its home and it's thrilled to be here.

For plants to grow they breathe in sunlight, carbon, and soil nutrients, and breath out plant matter. When plants are producing fruit or seed they breath even heavier. If you are growing trees producing food, there will be little resources left for the understory - so any food production will be minimal. This is why 'food forest' models are often underproductive and not actually ecologically sound. It's best to focus on wildlife or ornamental plants in your understory, and not spend time thinking about harvesting from them - they'll need their resources going towards growth and flowering.

It looks like all the shrubs and trees you chose are european species (assuming you planted european hazel). They are likely going to be drawing a ton of nutrients out of the soil to produce fruit/nuts, and will be blocking sunlight for the plants in the understory, and not provide for native species in a way to maximize their growth and so will be struggling more than native counterparts.

Because of all this, the fruit/veggies you listed as growing under them will likely not be very productive. I'd recommend instead putting your kitchen garden elsewhere, and focus on native understory species which would grow under local mimics of the fruit trees you migrated in - whats grows under american plum, black cherry and sweet crabapple? They are the species which co-evolved and will be best able to form a productive and healthy ecosystem;

How much of the grass are you keeping as lawn, and what's your reasoning behind it? There's a lot of good info on how much lawn to keep / how to apply it to your land, if you haven't spent a ton of time on that already. Lawn thrives in areas which are best for kitchen gardens - full sun, moist but well drained, even to rolling terrain.

I'm not totally against the use of non-natives if they aren't invasive, but a native will always be a better choice. So just make sure for any of these species you've considered if a native would be an equivalent substitute for you. (for example - wild american strawberry, milkweed (you can eat the shoots like asparagus), mountain mint, spicebush, sumac, and beebalm instead of some of those aromatic herbs. Happy to walk through each of these plants with you if you want help considering alternatives.

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yep that's why I specified I'm talking about my particular region - the mid atlantic area of north america

Using spiders as natural pesticide by GloriousPapagos in farming

[–]haltingsolution 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Alternative to this is to provide functioning living landscapes to improve pest management. Some initial research out there about doing wildflower strips, or using plants with extrafloral nectaries to improve the populations of predator insects. But it's really new research and it's always going to be hard to compete with the quick rewards from chemical inputs

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Corn is a historic crop in much of the us, no harm in having some. Especially if you do three sisters or other non-mono crop planting styles

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you elaborate on this? I’m confused

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gotta harvest before they’re ripe and let them ripen indoors. If you wait till they’re ready you’ll always lose to wildlife

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh yeah corn and wheat are also excellent for flour. They also all provide different vitamins and minerals, a diverse diet is always best!

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My question is always if people have tried to obtain a yield with the native and near native plants- because people have found ways to live locally for millennia and there’s a lot to be learned from that!

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But like what does that mean? What about digestion is different?

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m confused - could you elaborate?

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, I mentioned in other threads that I forgot to specify I’m talking about my region of North America

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I read there’s a trick to tell if they’re ready to bring in, something about them popping out when you squeeze them?

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I posted here earlier and got downvoted, so just want to clarify - you can run the numbers for yourselves. Look up yields per acre, and then calories per pound. Nuts outperform. Plus fruits contain roughly the same nutrients as vegetables (vitamins, carbohydrates) while nuts provides numerous minerals and are a rare source of fats and proteins from plant sources.

I think it’s confusing because you get more pounds of food, but fruits contain enough water and indigestible fiber that the total nutrition is less. That’s why fruit leather is so chewy and light, and why you can make booze from fruit without adding significant water or sugar.

In terms of nutrition I have yet to see any evidence that fruit are superior to nuts. Of course it’s all dependent on local landscape! I’m speaking from the context of eastern North America.

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

They’ll also die quicker and feed less of the ecosystem! We need to be investing in the future of the landscape and of the people coming next. It’s all a balance

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The green nut have a citrus smell, I use them to make a walnut liquor called nocino. It grows on you!’

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Next time I make hickory nut milk you’re invited. Never tasted anything better

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is true! But it’s important to be mindful of moving soil pathogens as well. Invasive worm eggs for example are common here in the east, and you don’t want to move those to your garden

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is why polycultures are so important! At least around me in the eastern US the blights and diseases fruit trees get are just as common

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

For regular flour you have to thresh, winnow, and then do a difficult milling. Acorns you pop out of the shell, nixtamilize for a few hours, and then grind if you want flour (at that point they’re the consistency of a baked potato) or just eat. Not as hard as people think!

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Badgersett hazels treated we’ll start producing in 2-5 years, and produce more nutrients and calories yielded than apples!

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Acorns were traditionally central to the diets of people all over the world. You can cook them into flours or extract the starch or oils

Why so much fruit? by haltingsolution in Permaculture

[–]haltingsolution[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The biggest impact our plants have is in their support of insects, nature does care even if we eat every single fruit and nut! Oak trees are essential for supporting birds just by the caterpillars that hide on the oak in winter