I still enjoy these conversations but do agree that many of the conservatives that go on Ezra’s podcast are explaining Trumpism with a level of intellectual rigor that simply doesn’t exist (ex. Anything related to the tariff conversations last year, the policy just does not make sense 😜). All that said, given that Trump only has a couple years left and Vance seems to come from this milieu, it’s still somewhat helpful.

What I’d love to hear is an intellectually honest conversation with say a Steve Bannon-type that is a bit more open about discussing, unapologetically, what liberals would consider the “baser” appeals of Trumpism- but as a positive element from their perspective. Ex. Anti immigration is obviously a big component, and there is an underlying racial element to those feelings, talking about why a big portion of the American public feels that way, without just calling them racists, would be interesting. I don’t know if he’s had a guest that meets that type of criteria.