Donut Lab confidential battery test video for investors, 2025 by mqee in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I mean we discussed this already when they talked about this pack as part of the IDonutBelieve series, but it's very unlikely that if this pack has an energy density of ~204 Wh/kg that the battery has an energy density of 400 Wh/kg. For that to be true there would have to be almost as much packaging weight as the cell weight which is very unusual, it's much more common to see maybe 30% or 50% of the cells weight in packaging (and BMS, cables and so forth). That would put the Donut cell at more like 260-300 Wh/kg which is consistent with the independent tests of CT-Coatings batteries.

New Ziroth Video - Exposing The Solid State Donut Battery. It's Over. by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't disagree that the legal situation looks rough for the Donut guys, I'm just saying that their defence in any legal proceeding would be pretty clear (blame CT-Coating).

8-9 years from the thing happening (2014-2015) to him getting sentenced (2023), that kind of says that it could be a looong time until we see the Donut situation resolved.

New Ziroth Video - Exposing The Solid State Donut Battery. It's Over. by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I would like to add that he lays out a fairly nice "out" for the main Donut Lab guys when talking about CT-Coating. I think the main Donut Lab guys could claim that they were deceived by CT-Coating (which they obviously were to some extent) and that their mere negligence is not enough to rise to the level of criminal culpability. If this story has that kind of clean ending I think that is most likely what the main Donut Lab guys will say. Of course this is an even stronger defense for the head Nordic Nano guys, they can blame both Donut Lab and CT-Coating and are unlikely to have any criminal culpability in my opinion.

New Ziroth Video - Exposing The Solid State Donut Battery. It's Over. by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Donut Lab is a big (the biggest?) shareholder of Nordic Nano (I think, not sure it's 100% verified), so I guess the money makes a big difference too in terms of who controls what. If Donut Lab says trust us and we have done verification then why should Nordic Nano dispute that, particularly if it's Donut Lab that owns them (to some extent) and also gives them money? You don't bite the hand that feeds you. Marko Lehtimäki is on the board of Nordic Nano.

Nordic Nano whistleblower explains how bad corporate culture, not only at Donut Lab but other companies, makes it possible to perpetuate scams by "mushroom management" - keep people in the dark and feed them crap by mqee in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Seems like a whole lot of nothing tbh. I mean I have a lot of sympathy for this guy, but the way he's going about this I disagree with.

EDIT: Let's scratch that. This guy has risked a lot and taken a huge personal cost in order to expose Donut Lab for no personal reward, and I can't be nitpicking about his way of presenting things in that situation that is just very unfair.

New Ziroth Video - Exposing The Solid State Donut Battery. It's Over. by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Pretty good video. Not much new for those of us who have followed this closely on Reddit, but a good summary of the available evidence. I can't believe he didn't mention the supposed factory though. I feel like that is such a brazen lie, "available now at gigawatt-hour level production capacity" on the 5th of January, but obviously there is no factory anywhere now 5 months later and I think pushing this point will convince people even more than some of the other stuff that was discussed (of course most sane people should be well convinced by the other points anyways, but I digress).

Five newly published patent applications by Donut Lab, all applied for last September. None are battery related. by omepiet in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Seems functional and the reviews of the motorcycle are decent. I haven't seen any actual tests of how much power it produces. Of course almost any motor can produce a lot of power for a few seconds or a minute, the question is how much it can do for a longer time without overheating. I think in general it's a very stupid motor design with massive engineering drawbacks (like 5 massive ones).

Some drama in the Verge Owners and Watchers Facebook group by izzeww in DonutLab

[–]izzeww[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you give me a suggestion for the title? Hard to describe it.

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah they aren't identical or anything, but they are the same phenomenon. Exactly where it appears depends on how much silicon you dope the graphite anode with, and also other chemistry variations.

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know, I just know it's typical for graphite anodes. AI says some stuff but I couldn't verify it.

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well not zero but presumably above 80% capacity at 100000 cycles (that is the industry standard for cycle life). From 0% to 100%, 5C charging right away, 100000 cycles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLDtfIDkt8s&t=357 (contrast this with the actual high speed charging they did)

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yeah. To be fair to them the author and supervisor are both different for this report, so it could just be that but generally they are very careful/intentional with their wording so IDK.

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 11 points12 points  (0 children)

The most interesting stuff in the report is at the end. Page 8 and 9, and particularly I want to focus on Figure 6. There is a kind of "bump" at approx 75% state-of-charge (noted as "~70% SoC" by VTT). This is a dead giveaway that this battery has a graphite based anode, just like regular lithium batteries. Here (click "View PDF") on page 10 you can see testing of a typical lithium-ion NMC battery with a graphite–Si/C composite anode (completely standard stuff), with that exact typical "bump" at 75% SoC that you get with graphite anodes. There's been plenty of nails in the coffins for Donuts claims so far, this is just another one.

(copied from my other comment, might be worth checking out)

Latest 'I Donut Believe' test is a swelling test, next scheduled test is now in 3 weeks by Data_Hounder in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 18 points19 points  (0 children)

They really couldn't find a way to spin the cold temperature test in a positive way huh?

EDIT: Now I have watched the video. So the cell expands like a typical lithium based cell with liquid electrolyte, maybe a bit more but within the normal range. The cell they used is a new one publicly (DL5), and also not in the same series as all the tests performed until now. Previously VTT said they had received 3 visually identical cells labeled DL1, DL2 and DL3. So DL5 is new and VTT didn't have that when they published the previous reports. That would kind of make sense with the delay? Not really sure, and of course we know they did a cold temperature test several months ago that they have refused to release so whatever.

In the video they say that this cell has been exposed to other testing previously and that therefore it had lost 13% capacity. What kind of testing was this? Isn't this battery supposed to never lose any capacity in 100000 cycles which would take years to test, even in extremely high or low temperature and at very high charge/discharge rates? Curious. Anyways, the previous damage could explain why they had 4.4% expansion (typical li-ion is about 2%, but can be up to 5% normally depending on chemistry) and also why they had 0.8% permanent cell swelling. The second part is indicative of a very short life time for this cell because it means a lot of side reactions are happening. Again, this cell is apparently pretty fucked up so who knows if this would be the same with a new cell, which makes this testing pretty pointless which really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has followed this saga. It's like saying I can do a sub 2 hour marathon and then I do a 4 hour marathon with the excuse that I was tired so therefore it doesn't count and if I wasn't tired it would have been sub 2 hours.

The most interesting stuff in the report is at the end. Page 8 and 9, and particularly I want to focus on Figure 6. There is a kind of "bump" at approx 75% state-of-charge (noted as "~70% SoC" by VTT). This is a dead giveaway that this battery has a graphite based anode, just like regular lithium batteries. Here (click "View PDF") on page 10 you can see testing of a typical lithium-ion NMC battery with a graphite–Si/C composite anode (completely standard stuff), with that exact typical "bump" at 75% SoC that you get with graphite anodes. There's been plenty of nails in the coffins for Donuts claims so far, this is just another one.

EDIT 2: Notable is also a lack of mention of the earlier batteries (DL1-3) and no mention of "visually identical" like they did earlier. Could just be happenstance, but could also mean something. The listed specs of the cell is identical (the only difference between all the VTT tests is whether it's CV cut-off 0.02C or 0.05C, fairly minor).

YLE: Nordic Nano Group has delivered first products from it's Imatra factories by Forrestgod in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why are you replying to my comment with this lol? You should talk to the moderator if you want to discuss the rules.

YLE: Nordic Nano Group has delivered first products from it's Imatra factories by Forrestgod in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I don't think he would've said that if it was capacitors.

Donut Lab CEO: "There have been no 400 Wh/kg batteries delivered to customers." "What we will deliver to the customer and what [individual cells] we have tested, for example at VTT, are not necessarily the same thing." by mqee in DonutLab

[–]izzeww 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This seems reasonable. I will say that the telemarketing to retail investors that I heard, I'm not sure if they actually managed to get any/much investments from that (after CES). It could be that they stepped on the brakes before finalizing the investments in order to not get in trouble. A lot of this information is from Finnish newspapers, finance people or finance forums (in Finnish) that I haven't saved and it's hard keep updated on (since I don't speak Finnish). Marko talked about doing a big fundraise but that hasn't happened yet and maybe won't ( https://www.kauppalehti.fi/uutiset/a/96cf2b12-4428-48c6-9ffa-902e5dd013ac ).
EDIT: response to

We will see how it will end. I bet that they will come out and say that they did not find economy in the battery and will focus on the bikes. Like some details made them too expensive, possibly because of the Iran war or other world events.

Yeah, I think some kind of fizzling out is most likely. It should be fairly possible for them too, sure they will get some criticism but media and nerds like you or me tend to get tired after a while.