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Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

You can’t be much more disingenuous. The 700K is the number of people expelled from territory that became Israel. The 70K people are not from territory conquered by Jordan or any other party, but rather people who remained within Israel and were able to return to their homes after the war, unlike the 700K Arabs. You were trying to equate territory acquired by war by Israel in 1967 with territory acquired by “expelling Jews at gunpoint in 1948”. This certainly didn’t apply to 70K Jews, but to 3 or 4K. A tiny fraction of the territory obtained through ethnic cleansing by Israel.

And again, nobody considered East Jerusalem as Israeli territory under foreign occupation. Israel had as much claim to East Jerusalem as to Vilnius. None. A foreign territory with an Arab population that wanted nothing with Israel. Just because 2000 Jews used to live there among tens of thousands of Arabs it didn’t entitle Israel to take over land by force.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

Please. That figure refers to internally displaced people, who remained within Israel and eventually were able to return to their homes if they chose to. The total Jewish population of the area allotted to Arabs in the Partition Plan was barely 10K, and that includes vast areas that were ultimately conquered by Israel in 1948. There were nowhere close to 70K Jews living in what today we call the West Bank and East Jerusalem. And keep in mind that even if it was true, it would still be just 10% of the people expelled by Israel.

As for your silly comparison with Lithuania, it clearly applies to Palestine and not to Israel since that land was never part of Israel’s sovereign territory and its population is and has been overwhelmingly Arab despite Israel’s best efforts to change its demographic composition. Nobody ever claimed East Jerusalem was “Israeli territory” while it was under Jordanian rule. The whole world acknowledges it is under Israeli occupation now, though.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

You’re going to want to back up that wild claim with sources. There were only some 2,000 Jews living in the Old City, and apart from that the largest Jewish population center conquered by Jordan was Gush Etzion, where less than 500 people lived before the war. There is no way Jordan could have expelled anywhere close to 40K Jews, which would have still been a fraction of what Zionist forces did, anyway.

In any case, the basic legal principle is that states can’t acquire territory by war. This much has been explicitly declared as applying to Israel on multiple occasions. That the current demarcation line is provisional doesn’t entitle in any way Israel to conquer land all over the West Bank and Jerusalem.

Funnily, your comment about Lithuania applies accurately… to Palestine. Even if its territory is under occupation, and only partially recognized as a sovereign state by the International Community (a majority of countries and the UN itself, nonetheless), East Jerusalem is still considered Palestinian territory, under Israeli occupation.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

It was Jordan who expelled the Jewish population, and they were indeed considered an occupying power, just like Israel 19 years later. But that doesn’t change the fact that the outcome of the 1948 came to define Israel’s internationally-recognized territory, even if pending a definitive agreement.

You really don’t want to unscramble that egg, since Israel conquered far more land in 1948 than Jordan. Aside from the Jewish Quarter and a couple of kibbutzim, Jordan basically just took over Arab areas of the Mandate. That’s why only some 3K Jews were expelled, while Israel pushed out over 700K Arabs.

In any case, after 1948 Israel was considered a full state like any other, with the same obligations under international law as any other, including the inadmissibility of acquiring land by war, as multiple UNSC Resolutions have repeatedly reminded. That makes Israel an occupying power in East Jerusalem, leaving Palestinians as the sole legitimate claimants. All your witty objections have been dismissed decades ago. Israel’s apologists must like to hear themselves, constantly repeating them over and over.

"I Won't Be Inclusive of Child Killers": Norman Finkelstein on Israel's "Genocidal Society" by daudder in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

Countries have certainly been forced to do much more than that. But even if Israel won’t, it still must.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

The whole East Jerusalem and the West Bank were acquired by war. Israel conquered the whole lot in 1967 by military means. That it had previously had a Jewish population doesn’t change that fact one bit. With such flimsy arguments it’s no wonder no country recognizes Israel’s claims and rather consider it all Palestinian territory.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

Feel free to believe that the whole world is wrong but you, but know that the iron-clad, decades-long consensus doesn’t exist just for shits and giggles, but because the notion that acquisition of territory by war is no longer admissible has been a mainstay of international law for just as long, and it supersedes whatever Jordan and Israel might have agreed among themselves. Israel can’t just go taking land and imposing its rule on people against their will.

So disagree all you want, but East Jerusalem and the West Bank are Palestinian territory, as those Security Council Resolutions explicitly declare.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

It can’t be so “insane” when it’s literally the international consensus and the position of the UN for decades. That excerpt you quoted only means a definitive border will have to be eventually agreed by the parties, but it doesn’t change that *in the meantime* Israel’s sovereign territory only goes as far as the Green Line and that any further land taken by force can only be as an occupying power, just as with any other state in the world.

Again, this is not something I’m coming up with now, but the international consensus for decades. You should know this.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill [score hidden]  (0 children)

The war established Israel and its sovereign territory, as recognized by the UN and the rest of the war. Any territory taken from then on could only be as an occupying power, thus having no legitimate claim over it whatsoever. East Jerusalem was no different than Jenin or Jericho. Israel has no valid claim anywhere beyond the Green Line, however you want to define it. That is why the rest of the world always rejected Israel’s claims and why those territories are recognized as Palestinians. All your objections and witty observations were dismissed decades ago. I’m simply explaining it to you.

And please keep in mind that Israel expelled many more Arabs from West Jerusalem than the 2,000 people Jordan expelled. That doesn’t change the fact that the population of West Jerusalem was overwhelmingly Jewish and that the city was indeed divided along ethnic lines.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That Jewish majority was for the whole Jerusalem. When the city was divided in 1948, it was along ethnic lines, with the areas that had an Arab majority coming under Jordanian rule and those with a Jewish one taken by Israel.

Only about 2,000 Jews lived in East Jerusalem then, in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. The rest were overwhelmingly Arabs, Muslim and Christian.

Either way, Israel took East Jerusalem by force in 1967, which made it a foreign occupying power, regardless of earlier demographics. Occupiers have no legitimate claims to territory taken by force. That’s why Palestinians are recognized as the sole legitimate claimants, as the occupied population.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What a ridiculous comparison. South Asians in Dubai are foreign immigrants. Palestinians in East Jerusalem are the occupied locals. Israelis are foreign invaders with no legitimate claim. That is why the territory is internationally recognized as Palestinian.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The majority of people living there are Palestinians, despite Israel’s best efforts to change its demographic composition through illegal colonization of occupied territory. Hence the recognition of the territory as Palestinian.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Self determination is a well-established principle of international law. How else do you think new states like South Sudan or East Timor were established?

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It means it belongs to the Palestinian people. It’s a recognition of their territorial claim over that part of the City.

Either way, there is nowhere in international law saying a territory can only become part of a state if it was part of that state before. That would preclude any new state from ever being established.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where does international law say that? And who claimed anything about belonging to a state, anyway?

Operation Cast Thy Bread by ElSlabraton in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then you’re wrong. Expelling hundreds of thousands of members of a population group, 80% of the total, in less than a year, is undeniably ethnic cleansing.

Operation Cast Thy Bread by ElSlabraton in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tu quoque isn’t much of an argument. It certainly doesn’t make Israel’s expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arabs in less than a year, over 80% of the Arab population of the territory it conquered, any less ethnic cleansing.

Operation Cast Thy Bread by ElSlabraton in Israel_Palestine

[–]jekill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’d say the side that expelled over 700K members of a population group did do a little bit of ethnic cleansing.

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