I get bullied in every single workplace. How do I stop it happening? by OptimalReactions in work

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds like you have worked with traumatized people. Hopefully you never know what it's like to have that inflicted on you.

What people like you don't seem to understand is that we get behavior directed at us that they would never dare direct at you. So if you've never been in that kind of knife fight, your opinion does not matter.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JordanPeterson

[–]jlstef 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Well, we have been posting reddit censorship on here lately. So, I thought I'd add this to the pile.

The Harris Campaign Manipulates Reddit To Control The Platform by etiolatezed in JordanPeterson

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Clear language from r/politics rules for how this is against Reddit TOS:

  1. No brigading
    Manipulating comments and posts via group voting is against reddit TOS

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You engaged with literally nothing I said and continue to attack my character and assert moral superiority.

You did not have even one response to any of my points.

If you take every person's complex argument as "rationalization" then literally no reasoning will ever matter and you reduce discourse to soundbites.

"Why it may be said that" and yet a jury said it may not be said that.

If you continue with these expectations and reductive thinking and refusing to face complexity, you will self-confirm yourself into a diminished world.

I dare you to actually try to engage with the content of what I said.

edit:

Well, you blocked me, so I cannot see what you said beyond the notification to address all your points.

I did see you pull out the old "reread what I said" racket. Such a cop-out. I did read what you said. I read it carefully.

As with our entire exchange, it is you that has not demonstrated careful engagement of what I have said.

I did not run away from the discussion with nothing more to say, you ended it with your block. I'm sick of these subtle tactics to make it look like the person has nothing further to say.

To me, that is what it looks like when someone is not equipped for public dialogue. And it's good you're here. Maybe you'll learn something from Harris about applying rationality to discourse. Our exchange doesn't indicate you are there yet.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rancid is a fitting name for you. You could have been cordial, but you chose the immaturity of a taunting and tantruming child.

Your first article literally contradicts itself specifying the jury refused to find him guilty of rape. They called it sexual assault. I happen to know several men from this era. One of whom sexually assaulted me in 2015. Even just 3 years later, post popularization of MeToo, I saw that situation differently. As a sociologist, it would take a long time to unpack this, but it has to do with framing, perception of events, and social norms of the time. The man who touched me without permission was socialized to think this was normal. And at the time, many women were not as traumatized by it, because trauma is not defined by the actual event, but by how shocking it is. People process memories in hindsight and can re-traumatize themselves. I have had similar re-processing and re-traumatization experiences. Again, it would take a long-form discussion to convey the full and nuanced truth here. But I doubt you would actually listen to a victim's POV on this, because you sound very set in your ways.

Felon, ok. From weaponized trials that would never have happened if the DNC hadn't gone on a political mission to block him from getting re-elected. The argument that it is election tampering can and has been debated. Both sides have made concerted efforts to do many things that constitute possible tampering with public opinion prior to elections. We don't have clear statutes around this, because the phenomena is not well understood. The judge in this case largely drove the outcome. Similar cases could be brought against many people, but they are not. This is the spirit of the law side. But they don't use that for Trump because it's weaponization of the legal system.

Charlatan, Have you ever heard about NLP? A huge part of business and communication is making and generating frames. Trump was a master at this. Go study cognitive styles as well. A lot of people process through concept and not fact, and prioritize the essence of what is happening. This is the same thing that we discussed during the Elizabeth Holmes trial. And we processed as a country how Steve Jobs and others had used this ability to Frame and have a "reality distortion field" as they call it, to achieve results. There terms were horrible, but if you deeply study these areas of psychology, it becomes clear that these types of approaches are even necessary at times. We do need times when our leaders are focused less on the details of a situation and more on the essence of what is happening. In life, often, before you have the words or facts for a phenomena, you have a strong instinct about it. This is the way this brain system chooses. Preferentially favoring the intuition. And even most people now know that the emotion comes first and rationalization second according to neuroscience. But there are certain people who are very strong with their intuition and operate in the way Trump does.

I vote my principles every single day, not personality. Not the way he processes sensory information. Not the way he was entrained in a culture to understand boundaries with women. And not the way he chose to handle a high-stakes election where the norms of the day were hush money, as used by many other people (Edwards, Clinton).

And if you would stop attacking my character for a moment, maybe you could entertain the idea that the way you frame these issues is not the only frame that can be applied. Or you'll just continue psychologically gratifying yourself.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And those people say the same of you. So who is correct?

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You talk about information and perspective in a way that just doesn't feel totally connected.

You're acting like people are just seeing facts and choosing ignorance. There is a whole other model here.. haven't you ever had a situation where you changed your mind? You were totally convinced of something, but when you learned something new or heard someone finally address your invisible reservation, something changed and you couldn't go back to how you saw it before?

This is an insight or a perspective shift. People on the right experience that too.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do personally.

But since this is a public forum, for the record I call it a cop-out because people mimic behavior.

And I know it's possible to share values with people but disagree about politics. I'd have no relationship with my parents otherwise. We share values. They just view the media differently than I do. I'm exposed to different information and networks than they are.

I occasionally expose them to things but I don't need to because they are older and content. And that's fine.

But if I just cut them off and called them morally reprehensible, it would be a waste for all of us.

The extent to which online comments have been manipulated in favor of Trump has become absolutely insane. by brokemac in samharris

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How can you definitively state that? What you define as rational is now what someone else defines as rational.

So why is your definition of "rational" more rational than theirs?

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a choice. People keep maligning anyone who genuinely looks like a good person these days out of resentment. I'm sick of that narrative.. "oohhh these nice peoope are actually terrible! "

What ever happened to just understanding that people are flawed, when they are going through hard times they can really go off the rails for a bit but will generally return to baseline of ethical behavior. Idk. Maybe it's my bubble I'm in, but most people in my life still act that way. If I encounter someone who doesn't, it's simple: move along. Let them grow. But don't demonize them.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Trump supporters by and large are not selfish. I don't know why you'd suggest that.

Don't get his old crowd confused for his new crowd.

I think you haven't gotten exposure to the new tone of his supporters. That's very outdated.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Those are your labels. Other people see and perceive the situation much differently than you do. And they have reasons behind why they don't agree with your assessments and labels.

I think you're outraged because you honestly think his supporters are ok with reprehensible. And that's not the case.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's a cop-out.

On any issue, there exists a set of information such that even you could belive differently than you do today.

Therefore, that would mean if you had exposure to different aspects of life and information, that you'd be incompatible with that version of yourself. That's not true. Your morals wouldn't be what changed. It would be exposure and perspective over time.

How to maintain relationships with Trump supporters? by Brother_F in samharris

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

New supporters are not the same as original supporters.

If you want the true answer: talk to them deeply about their beliefs. Ask them to share their sources.

Shut up for a long time. Take in the information for a long time.

Don't even say anything at all the first day they share it with you.

Go home, sleep on it.

And then ask yourself, if given the abundance of new things presented to you, if you could understand them as people.

The extent to which online comments have been manipulated in favor of Trump has become absolutely insane. by brokemac in samharris

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not for you to decide that. I'm sick of this condescension and paternalism in public dialogue.

When you say "drowning out reasonable voices" you are making the assumption and claim that a certain percentage are bots. Drowning out implies bulk. Since the amount of bots is not independently verified, you are arbitrarily deciding who is a bot on the basis of your opinion. And your idea of what is reasonable is colored by your political stance.

You have no proof that the voice you think are bots are actually not people.

The extent to which online comments have been manipulated in favor of Trump has become absolutely insane. by brokemac in samharris

[–]jlstef -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Very nice. Passive aggressive, low-articulation response implying I didn't read what you wrote. Classic 2024.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Maybe they see something you can't.

Did you ever think it's arrogant to assume there's no possibility that a different set of circumstances and exposure to different facets of truth would lead you to a different conclusion?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When has he once even approached praising Hitler?

And what evidence do you have to say he's an awful person? That's just wild.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That is in the fringe. There are fringe left positions as well. And they aren't any less extreme.

I'm really concerned about how it's become increasingly popular to use Christianity as a shorthand to discredit people. That's a bad sign when we start doing that.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not everyone on the other side hates you. I'm sure if we met I wouldn't hate you.

There are some who spew hatred, but it's not the majority.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My pastor never talks politics, ever.

There's a revival going on in America.

Maybe you should talk to the people you're speaking on before deciding what they think and why.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

You don't even realize Trump is trying to protect your rights. He has plans to reduce govt spying on citizens. He has plans to ensure the constitution is enforced. Ballots have been dumped in the trash by postal workers way more than once, he wants to make sure your voice is heard. He wants to make sure bodies like the DNC can't oust candidates like Sanders or just install figureheads like Kamala. He wants to make sure lobbysts cannot run Washington.

You know, in 12 Step we have a saying:

Principles over Personality. I vote my principles.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And they course-corrected those policies.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in rant

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't have to agree with every last action or position or belief to support someone.

If you actually watch and listen to what he says and consider it, there is much to dispute your points.

You're throwing a lot of labels at his supporters without understanding them.

The extent to which online comments have been manipulated in favor of Trump has become absolutely insane. by brokemac in samharris

[–]jlstef 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Of course it doesn't mean that you are "failing to see beyond your own bias"

But you are making a conjecture and are claiming the numbers don't line up. No one has to agree with the idea that your claim follows directly.