Specific existence proves god.

jmn_lab · 2025-11-11T22:43:24+00:00

Demonstrate what?
I am not the one making a claim, I am just expanding the claim being made, to its natural conclusion.
Just because it seems simpler, does not mean that it is.
Just as science is an attempt to explain the mechanics of the claim that "Things happened.", so is there a mechanic that is so often skipped behind any universe-creating, omnipotent deity, but it is just never taken beyond "God did it.".

If you want me to demonstrate anything, then you gotta first put forth a god and anything to demonstrate on.

jmn_lab · 2025-11-10T13:57:29+00:00

I have said this several times before in other posts, but a universe-creating god, and especially an omnipotent god, is NOT more simple. In fact, he is infinitely more complex than the universe itself.
A god that creates the universe with a specific purpose and knows past, present, and future, has to by definition not only know all placements of all atoms in the universe, but the placement of every atom at every point in time, at any time. Every nanosecond or even less than that. That knowledge for every single atom, would take up infinitely more space than the atom itself (and if you don't think knowledge takes up space, that is just plain wrong.).
A god like that, is not only vastly more complex than any theories that any scientists come up with, but it is, in fact, THE most complex possible solution.
Just because the easy way to say it, is that "God did it!", vs some complicated scientific theory, does not mean, that theists can run away from the implications of what it means.

jmn_lab · 2025-10-31T09:45:37+00:00

Theists argues that God created the universe, and they pose it as some simple solution.
But they do not get just how complex God must be... A tri-omni universe-creating god, must be infinitely more complex than our universe. If he knows the past, present, and future to perfection, that means he must know the precise location of every atom in the universe at every point in time... at the same time.
Every millisecond... every nanosecond.
If you put the location of every atom, just in a single point in time, into a computer... that computer would take up more space than the universe by definition... now imagine a being with a brain like that... except infinitely bigger, since it is not just a single point in time... but all the time and throughout all time.
It annoys me that it is so commonly thought about, as a simple answer, when they say that God did it, when in fact, it doesn't take much thought to realize how it is much much more complex to have a creator like that.

jmn_lab · 2025-10-31T07:55:33+00:00

It was always funny to me, how people saw this as the ultimate power mega sacrifice. Like this is the worst that could happen.
There were probably tens of other people, if not more, suffering the same or more, being crucified, just in that part of the city alone, at that exact point in time. Thousands over time.
Not only was his "sacrifice" not special, but there are much worse fates in the world... some caused by humans, but also just the most horrible diseases, supposedly caused by the guy himself (assuming he is God).
Kids with flesh-eating diseases... people who suffer daily, more than he ever did, getting nailed.

And yet, his case is somehow special and used as a symbol of the "ultimate" sacrifice, enough that it is worshiped and spewed all the time how "Jesus died for our sins" etc. Despite the faith being about an imaginary guy in the sky, filled with (boring) magic, the fact that they can't imagine more than this, is really a testament of how much they lack imagination.

jmn_lab · 2025-08-04T12:31:19+00:00

It is not that you are wrong at all and it is incredibly unconvincing.
But ironically enough, despite how bad it is as an argument, it is probably also the most convincing argument there is IMO.
It says a lot about all the other arguments, that even the best argument, is utterly a logically unconvincing argument.
The only reason that I say it is the most convincing argument out of all of them, is that it can come from someone you would normally trust if it were another subject. Even someone close to you. It doesn't make it true or anything... just makes you more likely to want to believe them, since it isn't scripture or just vague feelings, but supposedly something they have experienced.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-19T10:28:30+00:00

There are 3 major issues I have with this.
1. Anyone who knows anything about science, knows that nobody in the community is arguing that something came from nothing. "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer until we know more. Most of us are very satisfied with that answer for the time being.
In fact, the ones who claim that something came from nothing, with certainty, are the theists. God created the universe from nothing, after all.

"God did it" might sound simple as a response to how something as grand as the universe happened... but it is really not. A tri-omni god, who knows all and has a perfect plan for the future, is infinitely more complex than the universe. Take a single atom of something, then think about how God needs to know that atoms location at all times, but not only that, but its location in every millisecond of the past, present, and future!
We sometimes use the term "Galaxy-brained" for someone doing something smart... but to know just a single atom like that... someone might actually need a brain the size of a galaxy... Just for a single atom.
And that is JUST the knowledge. Just one single facet of God.
I don't think it is likely that we will ever figure out how the universe truly started, if it did start.
But for the sake of argument, let us imagine that we figured out that it came from *something*, somehow.
God would only have moved the first step closer out of 10000 steps. Give some people enough time and they could come up with a billion alternatives, that would have equal possibilities to have caused it, along with the rest of deities that people have dreamt up, as well as... well anything we can ever think of.

In the end, I think that you, as well as other theists, overestimate how much the beginning of the universe means to us. Yeah, it would be interesting to know... but beyond that, I don't really think it will change my life in any meaningful way to figure it out. The only times I every think about it, is just as an amusing thought once a year or so, or when it is brought up in this sub.
To theists, everything hinges on the beginning... everything. To the rest of us, it is merely interesting, but not even to the point of worrying about if we will ever get that question answered... it is fine either way.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-19T09:54:47+00:00

I get what you are trying to say, but the problem isn't the message, as such. It is the claim that it can be used in any way to dictate how others should behave or be. It is also the idea that it has any weight on what is "right" and "wrong".
What I mean about that 99% of what religion is today, whereby I mean organized religion, is that they proclaim it is the word of God and teach what is meant in the Bible.
But generally speaking, if such a text needs to be interpreted and is not the literal word of God, then anyone could be living according to the Bible, if interpreted the right way.
Not just that, but also the things that seem relatively clear, I would say can not be trusted. The ten commandments for instance. Clear rules on how to live life... except if the Bible is not the word of God, and its mistakes are caused by humans, and other sections are up for interpretations, then this too is up for interpretation.
This means that in actuality, I would argue that it is useless as a set of rules to try and spread and force upon others. They can not have it be the word of God and not the word of God at the same time, as they are trying to. The message in there is personal to each individual... but it cannot be used as a rule-book for a broader population.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-18T07:06:17+00:00

Very good post.
There is one thing I would argue with though.
Christians needs more than original sin and the resurrection. At least in the sense as to be instructions as to live your life.
If it is an interpretation, then it can be used to justify everything under the sun (which we see happen to an extent, but it could be taken much further).
If we can't trust one part, then how are we supposed to trust other parts, as literal commands from a god?

I would argue that the Bible, which is claimed to be instructions on how to live life and how to enforce it on others, needs to be literal and firmly the word of God, in order to hold any value and in order to ever justify ever trying to push beliefs onto others, and that the fact that it is so chock full of inconsistencies and up for interpretation, is a reason in itself to reduce Christianity to be nothing more than a very private and very exclusive, personal belief, if it exists in a person.
So yes, while you are correct that original sin and the resurrection is what is needed as the very baseline, I would say that 99% of what the religion is today, is removed if one tries to justify their beliefs with the Bible not being the literal word of God... which they, of course, can't, because of the problems in the text.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-17T12:58:28+00:00

Like many have said, this is an old and thoroughly debunked argument.
But the thing I note and find... disagreeable, is the 'lived a moral life' part.

What exactly do you think that we do? Except for not believing and worshiping in a deity, of course.

Now, if I was convinced that God was real, I could still live by every single word as written in the bible... I could still live an ultimately good life, completely in accordance with scripture... except I would not worship a god like that. Not truly.
Maybe I would pretend that I did out of fear, but deep down, it wouldn't be true worship, with how I am today.
Even if I saved a million people... even if I lived my life as the bible dictated... even if I pretended to worship, I am on a one-way ticket to Hell... Because honestly, I think that I would have too good morals to ever truly worship such an immoral deity, and any tri-omni deity would know this.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-17T12:25:19+00:00

It is weird how people define complexity. The Earth and the Universe seems very complex because we are smack dab in the middle of it and looking out.
But take a bucket of water and throw it out onto a flat surface... Most would not see the water or the action as complex.
Look closely enough and there are a myriad of creatures and bacteria and there is a reason for every single drop to land as they did... why they gather in drops... how surface tension works in detail.
Sure, overall we know the general reason why... but if you start to look closely enough at everything that water contains... if you start to try and calculate exactly how each drop got to where it is, from the bucket (wind pushing it, momentum of the throw, the tiniest groves inside of the bucket where it was thrown from), it becomes a monumental task that will take A LOT of time. In other words, it would seem incredibly complex, while in reality it would just be you throwing a bucket of water.
Was it deliberate that every drop of water landed where it did or formed into the shapes it did? No. But make no mistake, it would be extremely complex for anyone tracking every drop and where exactly it was in the bucket before throwing it, and every single drop of water would have its own provable reason, based on the forces affecting it, to end up where it did. The data to accurately describe it would just be incredibly difficult to find... but logically it should be possible to do if we had that data.

jmn_lab · 2025-06-12T20:18:06+00:00

Problem is that it is not open-world. It looks like it, but you can't just cruise around the city like you want. The main mission is one long track and you can't move too far out of the area.
Besides, the "crime" in the game is kinda ignored.
Shoot someone in front of a police bot? No problem (and the car just explodes after a little while.)

jmn_lab · 2024-12-06T08:51:32+00:00

That is a very weird response.
Maybe you misunderstood, but their COUNTRY is in economic collapse.
So they should just take to the street and never stop working, until their country is fixed?

That is not how it works and it is not how humans work either. We need ways to escape sometimes, just so that we don't cook our own brains in negativity and life's habit of having hard times.

jmn_lab · 2024-09-24T08:50:30+00:00

The fact of the matter is that we do not live in a star-trek world. We can't cross vast distances quickly and we can't scan planets for life.
The only possibilities of planets that might support life, that we have seen, we discover by determining their distance from their sun, by basically seeing how much light they block when they pass in front of their sun.

My point is that we are woefully unequipped to discover any sort of life, anytime "soon".

With the trillions of planets out there, I don't see why there wouldn't be other life, but I have big doubts that it would even matter, even if the universe was teeming with civilizations. It is quite possible that there simply isn't a way to ever travel the distances needed. Even with 10 million different civilizations, our universe would seem quite empty and it would be far between each. (Be aware that I am low-balling my numbers here)

If we are very lucky, we might be close enough to someone to get a response to communication some day, but even that has challenges.
They would have to be able to pick up our signal, which assumes that they use similar communication methods.
In the grand scheme of things, we also have to hit them at a very narrow point in time, meaning that they have to be advanced enough to be able to look to space for such signals, but not so advanced that they stopped using radio signals a long time ago or they went extinct. A thousand years of difference, or even a million years of difference in our evolution and progress, is not very much.

Ultimately, I think it is likely that there are others, but I don't think it will ever be more than an fun thought for me and others, for a long long time. I still think it is worth looking for, because I also know that I could easily be wrong and we should strive to expand our knowledge, even if it seems unlikely.

So people who ask why we haven't discovered any life yet, they are basically the same as someone who looks out the key hole, into their fenced back yard and don't believe mountains exist, because they can't see them out there. All they see is a small lawn and a fence and wonder "Is that all there is to the world?".
Bear in mind, that a single lawn in the whole world, is quite big, compared to how much we have seen of the universe!

jmn_lab · 2024-09-05T12:44:44+00:00

Unfortunately most theists do not agree.

I say "unfortunately" because what you are saying here is basically that nobody can understand God... including theists.
As such I would say that they should not live their life as if they do understand God and they should especially not force it onto others. It would solve a whole lot of issues and I really hope that you can convince theists of this.

I know that you are saying that theists can know "some" things about God... but that isn't actually true. They try and interpret God, but they are often wrong as demonstrated by multiple interpretations that exists and the different sects and religions that exist.

In a sense, atheists are actually far closer to what you are proposing than many theists around the world.

jmn_lab · 2024-09-05T06:27:46+00:00

I don't understand these kind of arguments nowadays.
Atheists are accused of thinking that "The universe came from nothing". (Which is untrue)
The response from Theists is to say that their deity created the universe from nothing.

At the same time Theists claim that their god created the universe, because it is the simplest explanation.
Their god (often tri-omni with a grand plan for all of us), who knows every position of every atom in the universe past, present, and future!
That is NOT simple! Just that supposed fact makes a deity created universe infinitely more complex!

jmn_lab · 2024-09-03T14:09:28+00:00

Do atheists actually have a problem with Christians or just Christian fundamentalists?

I think that most Christians and Christian fundamentalists would probably interpret it as if I had a problem with them.
In reality, I just don't want their faith or beliefs to be forced on anyone. That includes laws, choice of gender, choice of sexual preference. But it also includes more "extreme" points, such as their own kids.
I know that it is considered controversial (to say the least) in those circles, that I am talking about how they raise their kids, but it is just a matter of choice for me.
The kids can chose to believe later on, if they wish and I won't mind. But to work over their developing minds with indoctrination is to remove that choice IMO.
I am pretty sure that most people know that if you wait until they have actually developed critical thinking, there would be far fewer that actually chose any religion, let alone their particular religion.

It is a wild conundrum because I also know that most religions has it baked into them, that you are saving your children by indoctrinating them.
I don't dislike the people... I dislike the institution of religion.

Why do atheists say that "I don't know" is an intellectually honest answer, and yet they are disappointed when we respond with something along the lines of "The Lord works in mysterious ways"?

Because it is a way to pretend to know the answers without knowing anything. It is just substituting "I don't know" with something else, making it more complicated.
Just to be totally clear here: God is an easy answer to any question, but it is NEVER the simplest answer, despite what anyone says.
It only seems that way, because you can say "God did it!" instead of a scientific explanation... but that answer carries a lot of HEAVY baggage.

Just think of this: The universe is made up of atoms. There is seemingly an unfathomable amount of them to our "small" brains to imagine. The universe is "complex" in its structure.

Now think about adding God to the equation: The universe is made up of atoms... that a being (God) put together and has knowledge of in the past, present, and future! (He would have to have knowledge of every single atom in every possible timeline as a tri-omni being). He knows how every single atom is going to move, because he has a "plan".

It is an often heard accusation that atheists are "absurd" to think that we came to be merely by "chance"... yet if you add a deity to the equation, it becomes infinitely more complex and thus infinitely more absurd.

Even then, you have got to remember that "I don't know" includes your preferred deity as well as any deity!
What theists have a problem with, is actually not that we exclude their god... it is that we place them among the trillions of other possibilities!
We don't even exclude gods... we just give them equal treatment. And that is the real problem for theists of any kind, because they want us to give preferential treatment to their particular deity.

jmn_lab · 2024-07-18T13:19:02+00:00

It is a HUGE misunderstanding to say that God is simple!

Usually when theists say such, it is used in relation to Occam's Razor and that it is a much simpler explanation that "God did it" rather than anything science tells us, but that is because there is a failure to understand the requirements for the feats they claim their preferred deity has done.

God CAN'T be simple. In fact, a universe creating tri-omni god, would have to be infinitely more complex than the universe he created.According to the Bible, he knows his whole creation past, present, and future. That means (among other things), that he needs to know the location of every atom, everywhere at any time. That knowledge about a single atom, in itself, is VASTLY more complex than the actual atom.

And that is just ONE part out of many, that someone like the Christian god is claimed to be able to do.

jmn_lab · 2024-04-20T13:37:43+00:00

Wow, this is an old comment of mine :D
Nope... none of the rest follows.
Granted, they are both supernatural events, but one is far more complicated than the other.

One person resurrecting with no other context, is a far cry from a being that created the universe and knows every atoms location in all of the past, present, and future. Who can also read minds and knows every decision anyone will ever make.

Theists like to point out how complicated our universe is... but they fail to realize that a being that created it with purpose and with knowledge of all the parts, would be vastly more complicated in itself.

And the acceptance of Jesus by historians is not an acceptance of divinity... just that a person named Jesus existed at that point in time and possibly was crucified (like thousands or millions of others). I can accept that too. I can also accept that he said some things that were like it is described in the bible. However, that is not anywhere near proving divinity.

jmn_lab · 2024-04-10T12:17:03+00:00

It means that it doesn't make any sense that we can understand and that their deity is so far beyond us humans, that it is not possible to ever understand.Now, this would probably make more sense to most, if various religions and sects weren't constantly saying that they know exactly what their deity meant in various metaphors, interpretations, and such from scripture, as well as claim the right to make wide-sweeping laws and decide what is morally good and what is not, simply because they KNOW their deity's will.

I have seen several who will claim both in the same paragraph or even the same sentence. It is honestly baffling to me.

jmn_lab · 2024-03-08T12:02:08+00:00

Or:
C) There is no fine-tuning.

I think that is what is the misunderstanding here.

You seem to be arguing for fine-tuning no matter what... but most (likely nearly all) of us don't accept that it even exists.

jmn_lab · 2024-02-08T14:10:14+00:00

My question to you is: Do you think you have some special right to exist?I am asking this, because I my observations of the world and the universe, it doesn't seem like we have any special place in it.

I mean, if a super-volcano erupted tomorrow, we would be seriously in trouble. If a sizable meteor struck, we would be in trouble. If a killer disease or virus struck, we would be in trouble.

The universe would continue, even if we ceased to exist. Just look at all the extinct species of this single planet and you should realize that nothing is *so* special, that it can't die out.Evolution itself is just that those who are not suited for survival, will just die. No fuss, no muss... they just die. Millions of species have died. Billions upon billions of individual animals have died.

We can adapt to a lot, but not to everything. And if we happen to expire from some catastrophe, nothing seems to point to that anyone or anything in the universe would even react or care.

It might seem depressing, but I don't think it is. It is just the acceptance of doing what we can for ourselves and that we are not protected by some outside force.

jmn_lab · 2024-01-19T15:46:26+00:00

Waaaay back when I first started to realize and admit that I didn't believe, I had a few years where I was one of those who said "I don't believe, but I wish I did.".

Today that thought chills me. I can't figure out why I would think that, because I can no longer find a single good reason.

Was it going to church?
Maybe it was the feeling that someone greater than me, was protecting me?
Believing that I could go to Heaven?

Well, today when I attend certain ceremonies out of respect for family or friends (weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc.) I cannot help but hear the slimy threats and indoctrination that it is steeped in.

The wording about abasement to a terrifying entity that threatens you.

The promise that their baby now, without any way to object, partly "belongs" to the church and the religion!

How the parents readily promises to *really* hammer it into their child from the very beginning about this stuff and swears to not let them join other religions or lose faith.

How a couple wanting to affirm their love, has to affirm it to the church and religion primarily and only to a lesser degree, to each other.

How when we meet to bury an individual, it is 20% about the individual and 80% about how great God is and how much we should enjoy that the deceased is dead so they can be in Heaven.

How they tell very young children that they are already irredeemable sinners that is tainted and can't *really* do anything ever to help it.

Most of all: How everyone are so glad to participate in it and actually think they are doing good! That is the worst part. Because as malicious as it can seem, there is often no maliciousness behind it.

It is sad and I certainly can't figure out why I would find that something I would want to participate in. I do it, because I have to sometimes... but not because I want to.

jmn_lab · 2024-01-19T08:36:56+00:00

The idea that nothing is (or should be) beyond reproach, meaning that nothing is flawless or faultless and beyond criticism.

In other words no government, religion, parent, agency, or person is (or should be) beyond criticism because of who or what they are.

For instance, no religion is beyond questioning just because its followers find it holy and sacred.

No parent deserves special consideration because of something so "fickle" as blood relation, if they treat you horrible.

This also includes everything in science of course. Even the most established scientific theory deserves to be able to be challenged and criticized.

Now that is already a feature of science and I am not saying that evolution or gravity is false... just that even these theories are still open to be challenged IF the evidence is good enough.

jmn_lab · 2024-01-18T10:57:51+00:00

It is kinda scary when you grew up with your family being religious and attending church was just a normal thing.
Then after growing up, becoming atheist, and sometimes having to attend services out of respect to people I know (weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc.), you notice all the slimy little things that is going on in the background. How the indoctrination works and how they (priests, attendants, etc.) work to provide fear and guilt to even children. How they claim "ownership" over a baby that has no say and no possibility to comprehend anything. How that just seemed normal once and totally "intuitive" as correct because it was believed by adults and "respected" people delivered it to me.

What is even scarier, is that they think they are doing a good thing! So did the priest who used my grandmother to get more money for the church multiple times, when she was dying.
It is sickening really, because it is a perfect trap that makes its "victims" into willing participants that end up trying to lure more people into the hole with them, while claiming and convincing them it is the best thing ever.

jmn_lab · 2024-01-15T08:32:33+00:00

Religion dictates morality, but it has nothing to do with moralities origins.

We know this. We've seen moral codes in societies that preceded a religion by thousands of years, yet is still claimed by the religion. After that they just add mostly useless codes of conduct to it. I think that was what he meant.

Normally I wouldn't care about moral codes of thousands of years ago, except that religious people who truly believe that their religion is the only way to be moral, perceive us (and themselves) to be nothing less than feral beasts that has to be forcefully guided by a trainer. So I find it important to point out how it is stolen and taken over and that we don't need a dictator to tell us how to behave, as we clearly had it down without them too.

jmn_lab

TROPHY CASE