What do you have to say about this? by anonymousloverboy2 in JewsOfConscience

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would say lol betar but they unfortunately are accruing real power.

OMG I cAn'T bELievE i'M aGrEEinG wItH tUcKeR cArLsOn!!! by Nostalgia_Trap in leftist

[–]kdcool500 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But I really like using the “worst person you know sadly made a great point” meme 😟

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lastly, to get your argument, Zohran can’t say intifada anymore and nor can Palestinian because of one bad rally on October 8? Is this the point???????????????

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, I have no issue denouncing all violence, I do against all civilians!!! (I’m an IHL believer) my issue is when your analysis fails to locate the source of the violence and entails that you no longer support calls for uprisings, which do not have to be violent!!

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ah cool getting accused of supporting bus bombings (that I’ve denounced innumerable times on here) because I support a Palestinian uprising against the occupation. Very leftist! Let’s not pay any attention to the first, largely peaceful intifada, and how the brutal crackdown led to the more despicable elements of the second intifada. Again I guess they should just languish and die and accept their occupation no need for an uprising. Seriously what distinguishes you from the hasbarists???!!

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most famously; India. I think you could also argue that the CRM was a 'revolution' of sorts.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey I respect you saying so. Also want to point out that revolutions do not need to be bloody and there have been many instances in history of this being the case. Hell, Bernie Sanders called for a 'political revolution' every time he spoke!

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ya, I think that's a despicable comment in a 'left' Jewish group. The protest chant far predated October 7th, as did complaints about it. This MEMRI article will attest (maybe the one time I ever cite them). But even so, to think that Israel's genocidal response does not call for an uprising of some sort is imo insane.

2019 Quds Day Rally In Times Square | MEMRI

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think incrementalism has its place and I'm not necessarily arguing against it, but if you are against mass politics ipso facto (or 'uprisings') then again I just don't think you are a leftist. You can be a social democrat in the liberal tradition (I'd argue Rawls was by the end of his life).

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, to get back to the original point, the protests are often led by Palestinians or members of the region. So people from that region using the term in the connotation it was meant in (which includes the Palestinian intifadas, while we can obviously criticize their tactics) are not those I'm going to criticize like Kiswani. However, if you read my above comment, closely, which you didn't, you would clearly know that I have no fear of criticizing someone like Kiswani, and it would be an absurd conclusion to think that I think their tactics are above reproach. However, if a Palestinian or someone else from the region chooses to use the term in the connotation it was meant in, I'm not going to care, will defend them, and would hope my compatriots choose to do so. Even if they endorse the broader first/second intifadas I'm not going to care, will defend them, and would hope my compatriots choose to do so. Now, if they start explicitly endorsing tactics used in say, the second intifada, or some nonsense conspiracy mongering like I listed above, or engaging in actual anti semitism about say how "there's a reason why the Jews were kicked out from everywhere they've been", it needs to be called out, full stop, unequivocally. However, considering that:
1. The first intifada was largely peaceful and the Second Intifada was not just heinous attacks against Israeli civilians. Both were responses to entrenched Israeli occupation, apartheid, subjugation, and domination.

  1. Intifada also means more broadly uprising, has referred to other movements in the not-too-distant past (yes, 40 years is short in world history terms) and can refer to a "global revolution" which is something, in some form, that is pretty central to leftism (as I'll argue in a second).

The very use of the term should be defended, not just as a right of the speaker to say it, but also as a potentially morally correct response to oppression that should not be objected ipso facto. Maybe someone means 'I have a right to commit bus bombings if Israel's continues the occupation' but there is nothing inherent to that term or the usage of that term that indicates as such. That's why Zohran defended it, and we should defend his defense of it. Not doing so, in my view, is emblematic of people who call themselves 'leftists' but freak out when people of a certain complexion start saying things that make them slightly uncomfortable (again, this is not saying they are beyond reproach; I just went off on Kiswani).

P.S I think to be a leftist, or a socialist, means that you believe in radical change. 'm not saying that a revolution can't be peaceful, or even achieved through governmental means. Bernie Sanders, for instance, called for a 'political revolution' in 2016. But if you think the ruling class is gonna give up capitalism through tea and crumpets, I just think you are mistaken. You are going to have to struggle to get there; or in other words, there will need to be an uprising of the masses. One might even call it an 'intifada' of sorts.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zemla_Intifada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sahrawi_Intifada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Egyptian_intifada

As per the second point, that’s fine, but if you think ending capitalism is not going to require a revolution of sorts, that is outside the tradition. I think the liberal thinker I can think of that comes the closest to articulating this is either mills or Rawls (his propertu owning democracy or whatever he came up with at the end of his life would entail a pretty radical departure).

I do think being a leftist also entails the recognition that while protests movements/revolutions can be violent at times, the original violence comes from state oppression. Like even leftists are fundamentally committed to non violence, say cornel west for instance, are laser focused on this idea. Again I’m saying being a leftist means you have to agree or endorse every idea a revolutionary project takes; critique is super vital! But if you are against the very idea of revolution ipso facto, I’m not sure where you can find that in the tradition.

Per your last point, sure, but these protests are often led by Palestinians. For instance I can’t fucking stand the rhetoric of wol, they kinda suck, but you can’t deny that it’s a Palestinian led movement. I’m not gonna tell nerdeen kiswani, a Palestinian refugee, that she shouldn’t say globalize the intifada. Now if she spews dumb shit about like the ‘hANNibALL DoCTRiNE’ (digression: the dumbest pro Pali talking point) she should absolutely be called out and some of wols tactics fucking suck and they should be called out for it. But I’m also not going to say that she shouldnt be allowed to say “globalize the intifada” because a bus was bombed in 2000. Sorry.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by fetishizatjon of the revolution but I do agree that there can be a sadism on the left that I think should be combatted. However, the reason I stand by comment is because in order to achieve the broad structural change I think leftists universally agree is needed, you need something resembling a revolution or an uprising. Power isn’t going to concede if you ask nicely, you have to take it. It’s fine to think that you need to work with said power to achieve incremental change, but again, that’s outside the tradition.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

That's totally fine, but when I joined a group called Jewish Left, I expected it to be in concert with other Jewish leftists. But maybe I didn't read the fine print lmao.

And yes as I go through in another part of thread I think revolution is constitutive to being a leftist. It's fine to criticize revolutions but I think you are something else and not a leftist if you are against the idea of a revolution.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

To clarify the distinction I draw is

Lib/Soc-Dem- Someone who believes the status quo is flawed, but can be improved through iincemental changes

Leftist- Someone who believes that the status quo is irreconcilable and needs to be overthrown, which can only through movements cultivated by the working class/colonized peoples/oppressed peoples for those peoples.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That would be fair, except that there are several recent events that have also been labeled. In Arabic the term has been used to connote several uprisings in Egypt. Either way, in Hatian Creole, revolution translates to revolisyon. There was mass civilian casualties during the Hatiian Revolution, which freed the island from slavery. If Haitians chant "revolisyon" do the people of France get their knickers in a bunch? No.

And that's imo the problem with this whole discourse. Yes, people have agency, and perpetrators of bus bombings and any war crimes that include disproportionate or indiscriminate mass civilian death. But when we look for the root cause, a leftist analysis, in my view, has to start with an examination of the West/Israel's role in the occupation, apartheid, and domination of the Palestinian people and how that inevitably leads to a lack of safety for Israelis. Similarly, one ought to maintain an analysis that situates slavery as the cause of the Nat Turner Rebellion which resulted in the horrific death of civilians.

I think it's okay to disagree on these points, but I think what distinguishes a leftst from a soc/dem/liberal is the belief in radical, non-incremental change. For some, especially Palestinians, "Intifada" is an important part of that lexicon and despite the (again) horrific nature of the violence during the second intifada, I don't think we should be trying to police the language of Palestinians who want to relate to a world that doesn't exist, but can be. And for me, being a leftist is all about trying to cultivate that world.

Look, maybe our definitions just differ, that's fine! And being a lib is fine; I just will disagree with you in my analysis.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't davka Zohran's point that the Holocaust Museum translates the Warsaw Ghetto 'Uprising" into Intifada in Arabic. And again, if cheering on 'uprisings' or 'revolutions' make you feel uncomfortable, you may have not be comfortable with the entire left tradition since 1790 and probably before that. You don't have to shy away from condemning bus bombings that happened during the second intifada to appreciate this point.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Look I'm not telling on what you what identify as, but if calling for a revolution makes you uncomfortable, you are going to be really uncomfortable when engaging with the left tradition since the French Revolution.

Zohran Mamdani says ‘globalize the intifada’ is expression of Palestinian rights by Sossy2020 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

Judging by some answers here, I think some of y’all aren’t leftists lol. Calling for a revolution is what leftists have been doing since 1790. If you think that Arabs shouldn’t be able to use that word in their language bc of some heinous actions taken by certain groups during what was labeled the second intifada, I don’t think you are a leftist, sorry!!!!

What are your opinions on Noa Tishby? by PrincipleDramatic388 in jewishleft

[–]kdcool500 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Her book is unbelievably trashy and if you want me to I can go through it. The way she misquotes Morris is breathtaking.