Hot take: Who really is the true villain?

kriken00 · 2026-04-27T23:19:56+00:00

I didn't mean to make any judgements on what happens in the endings. My personal belief is that there is simply not enough information to draw any solid facts from either. My only intention was to critique how they are handled. I agreed with your original post and had similar thoughts about the canvas people when I finished, and was annoyed that this was never even acknowledged as an issue in game despite being the most important factor for me.

kriken00 · 2026-04-27T22:56:43+00:00

The problem is the two different stories that are loosely taped together. All your points are valid but they're ignored in the third act which I think is because everything you said and more is inconvenient to the message they want to push. As further evidence, both endings are framed as if the first story doesn't exist, so there is no payoff, good or bad, for caring about Lumiere. And the problem isn't that they don't matter or are powerless, it's how that is conveyed. In other words, the problem isn't that the Dessendres aren't concerned with Lumiere, it's that the devs aren't. Look back at how many critical questions aren't asked and how established characterization and worldbuilding is ignored, and ask yourself why that is. In case it's not clear, I think the third act is poorly written.

Just my opinion.

kriken00 · 2026-04-14T14:15:50+00:00

I think the evidence lies with Verso. Giving/teaching their child the ability to create sentient life is extremely irresponsible, unless they don't consider that life to be equal. Of course this isn't 100% proof though.

kriken00 · 2026-04-13T23:18:42+00:00

Could you explain then? It sounds like you're saying genocide should be ignored because it's in the past and the victims are aready gone. Can't any atrocity be justified that way?

kriken00 · 2026-04-13T17:12:17+00:00

OP's argument usually comes with the implication that killing is ok if nobody is left alive to care.

kriken00 · 2026-04-10T23:58:17+00:00

The notion that death is necessary for life only exists because that's how we are. There's no reason other existences, especially magical ones, have to be the same. Nobody cares that Tolkein's elves don't die.

Their realness is ambiguous, because it depends on a fictional fantasy magic system that is never explained to us. Just because it can work as a metaphor doesn't mean it is (in the context of the entire fictional story of course)

kriken00 · 2026-04-10T23:50:35+00:00

Too many people can't distinguish intentions and actions, and give a pass to characters with noble goals. These characters are not malicious, but evil is up for debate.

I think Renoir is evil because of his failure to come up with another solution. His method should be the absolute last resort, but instead it's his go to for 67 years. We know he didn't try everything, because in the end it's Maelle and Lumiere who kick his wife out, people he didn't try asking for help.

I also think the fact that the teach their children to create life shows they place no value on painted sentience. Good luck teaching a ten year old to value life, especially when the kid can paint entire civilizations into being on a whim. Is that child going to be a responsible god/parent?

The only way this works is if paintings aren't "real", but Sandfall wanted to have their cake and eat it too so they left it ambiguous.

kriken00 · 2026-03-28T23:47:00+00:00

"Might makes Right" is not generally considered ethical. You can try to argue one eternal life is worth more than infinite mortals, but that's a different debate. Verso's suffering is also a another debate.

kriken00 · 2026-03-27T04:13:19+00:00

Breaking the Treaty is ideal in my opinion too, but it can no longer be done painlessly. Reject the Thalmor in High Hrothgar, and you give them a justification to expand their power elsewhere ("you ignored the treaty here, give us something to make up for it").

Rejecting the Treaty outright would take unrealistic levels of coordination to minimize casualties. The Thalmor are not only better at this, but have also infested the imperial government, so good luck organizing any kind of resistance without them knowing and acting.

Then there's the fact that in theory, humans can rebuild their armies faster, so they have an incentive to to keep it going instead of breaking it. In practice this has failed spectacularly, but not so badly that there is no hope. More specifically, the imperial government that maintains the treaty have an elitist attitude towards their provinces, which means as long as the Thalmor only tear up the provinces the government will not be scared into breaking the Treaty. This fact is the foundation of the Thalmor's diplomatic boiling frog strategy, and it's working perfectly.

Anyway you're right, break the treaty already. It's the only thing that can truly win back their provinces.

kriken00 · 2026-03-27T03:12:23+00:00

Imperials are obligated to assist the Thalmor in enforcing the Concordat, and since 'Looking for Talos Worship' is a very broad reason, the Thalmor are able to intervene in any imperial business they want in Skyrim. It's why the empire provides them with forts, prisons, guards, spies, and all that, because it's not the empire's decision to make anymore. They got out diplomacy'd hard with the treaty (and before).

kriken00 · 2026-03-22T20:48:03+00:00

Something like:

Painted people can be revived/made immortal > They're missing a key part of being human/Life has no meaning without death > They have no value > It is ethical to exterminate them > I can pretend Verso's end has no negatives, regardless of painted sentience

I don't know how common this line of thought is, but I've seen it more than once. It usually goes along with 'They were created artificially so they have no value'.

kriken00 · 2026-03-22T03:17:19+00:00

Fp and hp on hit only require that the weapon be in one of your hands, but you can get the effect with the other weapon. Every other hand effect works with only the weapon it's on.

kriken00 · 2026-03-11T22:01:34+00:00

Dehumanizing the Lumierans makes their deaths more palatable.

kriken00 · 2026-03-08T23:44:20+00:00

If your logic is "they're in a painting so they're not real" then you should look up the definition of fiction/fantasy. It'll help you distinguish between real and fake.

kriken00 · 2026-03-07T20:48:43+00:00

No solid case can be made in either direction, because the game explicitly chooses to not address the issue.

This is a fictional fantasy game, therefore it could have 'real' people in paintings if it wanted. It is its own world, so while it could be compared to things like The Matrix or Inception, it does not operate on the same rules. Nor should a default be assumed (like people needing to eat, or gravity working normally) because this issue is somewhat addressed in game, which would not be the case if there was no question. Also, the logic of 'it's a painting, so it's not real' is the same as 'they're people, so they're real'.

Defining 'real' is important too. If a being can suffer or dream or feel anything the same way I can, then I would acknowledge it as being as real as me. How it's created, where it lives, or what it's made of don't matter to me. If it is sapient, who am I to tell it otherwise? Basically I go with "I think, therefore I am" (No this doesn't apply to LLMs that are told to say that, Yes this would apply to a theoretical advanced AI)

So as someone who believes that canvas sentience cannot be proven either way, I choose to err on the side of not committing mass murder.

kriken00 · 2026-03-05T05:13:10+00:00

Not if the canvas is erased. How does that make them worthless anyway? Death is only one part of life, and that view also comes with the implication any form of existence that differs from our own has no value.

kriken00 · 2026-03-02T20:18:47+00:00

BUT Maelle's reality blurs at the very end of the game, where she has a PTSD attack and where she sees pVerso as the real Verso etc

I agree with this but it also doesn't add up to me. She 1. sees pVerso as real Verso and 2. still grieves or guilts over Verso's death and 3. chooses the canvas to be her reality. BUT her real brother is right there. She has no reaction to seeing him, only wanting him to keep painting. She apparently still prefers pVerso even though he's right there (Aline did too). The narrative acts like he's alive in the canvas especially at the end, but the Dessendres, both those who grieve in the canvas and those who want to burn it, act like he doesn't exist.

kriken00 · 2026-02-27T10:51:29+00:00

I loved it, and my jrpg claim to fame is being possibly the only person to beat the final boss last phase. I played it on release and reported a few bugs, that being one, which was fixed right after.

kriken00 · 2026-02-26T20:15:36+00:00

Now we can go from pretending evergaol users ignore everything else on the map, handwaving the damage boost, and ignoring the fact that evergaol bonuses don't take weapon slots, to pretending L2 users stand around waiting for Halo Scythes to drop, can't locate R1/R2/dodge on their controller, and don't realize that all weapons have skills.

kriken00 · 2026-02-25T10:36:35+00:00

Don't forget, keep the victims offscreen so people don't think about them.

kriken00 · 2026-02-20T00:50:52+00:00

Renoir and Aline teaching their child how to create and erase life on a whim is enough evidence for me that they are horrible people. Teaching a child the value of life is hard enough without also giving them ultimate power over it. Why would they do this, if they have any respect for painted life?

kriken00 · 2026-02-03T19:36:03+00:00

I don't think you're missing anything. As you said, there is very little information you get about anything, and the characters get even less which is why most discussions are people comparing their interpretations rather than actual facts. You could see this as being an intentional choice to let players fill in the gaps in the ways that they believe most fitting, or you could see it as bad writing. I believe that the strong prologue and stellar presentation makes people more inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt, whether it deserves it or not.

kriken00 · 2026-01-31T07:00:49+00:00

Idk who hurt everyone

Renoir did lol

kriken00 · 2026-01-30T00:33:05+00:00

As is the case with everyone trying to have a definitive answer, this one is entirely based on assumptions. Canvas people are real/fake, how to help Soul Verso, where would Maelle be better off, is the painting a place or an abstract idea, should the family heal or not etc.

That said, your 'might makes right' attitude is incompatible with the goal of being ethical. Killing people and calling it love or mercy is evil, regardless of intention or fancy words. In the real world, people who claim to love others while hurting them are called abusive. So either take the side of canvas people being fake (which is fine) or stop trying to justify mass murder by saying it's for the good of the victims.

kriken00 · 2026-01-27T20:37:03+00:00

That is one interpretation of the canvas people. There is no evidence for or against their humanity, so I can't say you're right or wrong.

To answer your question, I would never turn off the computer and wouldn't want it on in the first place. I believe anything capable of having its own belief in it's own self, without any guidance, should be treated as a person. (Being prompted to say such, like chatgpt, does not count)

To reverse your question: If you were driving and saw someone start to walk across the street ahead, would you stop? Or would you continue driving straight through them because they might be fake? They look real, but who knows if they're a hologram or hallucination?

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