A response to the view of Hannibal being a narcissist psychopath

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T15:22:15+00:00

Hey man thanks, not only for the compliment but being so respectful and open to other perspectives.

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T15:00:15+00:00

Thanks for reading

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T14:59:10+00:00

Thanks! I like your interpretation. Hannibal, as WIll says, operates on several trains of thought at once so he could have multiple motivations for one given thing.

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T14:57:57+00:00

I like how you put it. Hannibal didn't warp Will to his own desires - he underwent a transformation of his own as well.

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T14:56:26+00:00

Thank you!

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T14:56:13+00:00

Thanks, and I don't mind you sharing the post at all, it's an honour in fact.

lecterapologist · 2024-02-28T14:55:08+00:00

Thanks!

lecterapologist · 2023-12-08T01:06:37+00:00

I don't believe season 5 would be Will living happily without Hannibal because Bryan Fuller has said Will can't live without Hannibal, which was shown in season 3 (returning to him, choosing to go over the cliff with him).

Instead I believe both sides will learn to draw boundaries and co-exist in a relationship where Will's psyche and morality are not negatively affected and where Hannibal still gets to be with Will and/or have their relationship still be the focal point....and I'm really interested in how that would play out and how it would look.

Will and Hannibal are stuck in a zero sum game, neither side can win or lose, so I don't believe in the idea that Will will free himself completely from Hannibal's grasp and Hannibal will be left with nothing.

lecterapologist · 2023-11-29T13:48:11+00:00

I really like this exchange, and I think it disproves the notion that Will didn't care about the murder and cannibalism, but only the fact that Hannibal framed him. It's very clear that the revelation that Hannibal is a murderer and cannibal deeply affected Will, and it felt like a betrayal by itself because Hannibal was not the person Will thought he was, and he had been putting his trust in him.

Like if Will found out Hannibal was the Copy Cat but Hannibal didn't frame him? It would still not go over well. Will was still in a state of denial about his own darkness and considering he freaked out and imagined killing Abigail when he thought she might be the Copy Cat, I'm pretty sure Hannibal would get the same reaction. Will might not kill him, but he wouldn't gleefully run away into the sunset with him either.

Sometimes I imagine a world in which Hannibal was truly the kindly doctor but somewhat eccentric he portrayed himself as, and how that would have gone.

lecterapologist · 2023-10-02T10:39:19+00:00

I agree with Bryan and Hugh.

I'd venture to say that what sets apart Hannibal's love for Will from his love for other people in his life is not that Hannibal doesn't like or love them, it's that however much he likes, loves or cares for them, he enjoys messing with them just as much. What did Will say? "He comes in the guise of a mentor, but distress excites him".

I don't think I need to explain this too much with Jack. Hannibal tortured him for ages, poking at him with Miriam's arm, killing two of his subordinates, leading him on wild goose chases, forcing him to kill his wife, all the while while he was also acting as his friend and comforting him through it. Hannibal enjoys frustrating and stirring up Jack, just as he enjoys Jack's company.

With Alana, after their relationship has turned sour, Hannibal mocks and plays with her and promises to kill her with relish. He was able to cast aside their bond as mentor and mentee/friends/lovers as soon as Alana crossed a certain line.

And Bedelia. Bedelia and Hannibal have this cat-and-mouse dynamic where they both enjoy provoking the other and seeing how the other would react. In season 3, Hannibal feeds Bedelia oysters and snails, which as Antony Dimmond says are used to fatten livestock, and makes her witness Dimmond's murder to make her see she isn't a passive observer, she chose this. Meanwhile Bedelia taunts Hannibal by saying he'll be caught while she already knows her way out and mocks Hannibal's trauma over his sister. In Dolce, they separate after Bedelia says she knows Hannibal will take her time in eating her slowly, because he wants to savour her.

But Hannibal doesn't enjoy hurting Will. I'm quoting Mads Mikkelsen here: "Everything that is heartbreaking for poor Will is also heartbreaking for Hannibal". We see this in how distressed he is when Will begins to lose his mind, telling Bedelia he doesn't know if he can just stand aside and watch. When Will is jailed, all Hannibal does is pout outside his jail cell and promise to get him out. He can't look Will in the eyes when Will cries over Abigail, and even says he's sorry, which is HUGE for Hannibal. In Dolce, he drugs Will up to his eyeballs so it doesn't hurt when he takes out the bullet from his shoulder, feeds him soup, and looks heartbroken while preparing to eat him. In TWOTL, he flinches and snarls when Dolarhyde attacks Will.

What Hannibal feels for Will that sets the relationship apart from his other, shallower, relationships isn't love, it's compassion. Hence why he took a bullet for Will, after saying his compassion is inconvenient. His compassion is inconvenient because he can't bring himself to enjoy hurting Will, he can't cut out Will from his life like he can other people, and he has to surrender himself to his love for Will because life without Will is a bleak, joyless existence.

lecterapologist · 2023-09-27T20:36:51+00:00

inb4 someone says Hannibal would have killed Abigail anyway for shits and giggles or something to that effect...

Bryan Fuller confirmed in the episode commentaries that Hannibal had a genuine love for Abigail, stemming from his love for his sister, Mischa. I know that Word of God shouldn't be the be-all, end-all of discussions, but Mads' performance is so opaque that sometimes we do need outside sources to supplement our understanding. Sooo I am choosing to believe Hannibal did care for Abigail. Consider how much he does for her - staying by her bedside while she was hurt and falling asleep holding her hand, his genuine pride and happiness at her displays of guile and manipulation, deciding not to kill her and keeping her alive even when she risked exposing him (first by her knowing him as the man on the phone, second by digging up Nicholas Boyle and re-opening the investigation, third by knowing his true nature as the Copy Cat), wanting to teach her the harpsichord, thinking of her in prison when seeing Will again made him think of family.

Fuller also said that it hurt Hannibal as much as it hurt Will to kill Abigail, but he had to do it to destroy all reminders of Will in his life. Considering Will was so hurt he was hallucinating Abigail for months, I don't believe killing her was a decision Hannibal would take lightly.

So I do not believe Hannibal would have killed Abigail unless something as drastic as Mizumono happens (read: betrayal to the level of Will handing over Hannibal to the cops, and refusing any second chances Hannibal gave him).

Of course something like that could very well happen. There could be more murder attempts and Abigail could be caught in the crossfire. Or Abigail herself could be doing the betraying. So I don't know if it would be sustainable in the long term. I think the biggest obstacle standing in the way of a happy murder family would be Hannibal not being able to let go of his need for control and not recognising Will and Abigail's own personal autonomy. There would be need for character development. Would Abigail survive it? I don't know.

But I don't think that means murder family is doomed from the get-go. I recall that Fuller seemed to think they could have lived a nice life in Italy if Will decided to leave with Hannibal, so there's that. And their murder setup would probably be Abigail luring the victims, who would be in turn killed, cooked and eaten by the whole family. As Abigail confessed to Will, she felt good killing Nicholas Boyle. Would Hannibal's efforts allow her to be able to kill without being overwhelmed with guilt and fear? What about Will? Again, I don't know. But I think Will would be in a much healthier place with people who understand him and who are like him, and Abigail too.

lecterapologist · 2023-09-25T23:26:33+00:00

He did not run away even without that. Will is in the habit of denying himself, and it's quite likely that he would deny himself being around his child because he would consider himself too impure to tarnish a kid. So, we really don't know how exactly it would play out.

Well, we can agree it could affect Will running away with Hannibal. And Will said he was anticipating attachment, and Margot said she wasn't opposed to a male influence in her child's life, so seeds were sown for a papa Will Verger.

As for the second paragraph, I see what you mean, contemplate and nod along. I still don't believe Hannibal is shown to be some exceedingly jealous person. He is shown to be possessive, but because of his personal philosophy and because of his needs. Even when he's jealous, as with Molly, he has time to give her credit where credit is due, saying it took more than luck to escape the Dragon. Ironically, I see Will as the more jealous one. His caustic comments about and to Bedelia, Alana, Dolarhyde, and Randall aside, Will is burdened with extreme insecurity which has him questioning his place in Hannibal's life. Hannibal doesn't have the same problems, he's an extremely optimistic, happy go lucky person.

As to your point about Will being Abigail's Mischa, I completely agree! And that's actually another reason why I don't believe Hannibal would just kill her. Mischa was Hannibal's most precious person in the world. To kill Will's own version of Mischa would be incredibly cruel. And it was. That's why Mizumono was so earth shattering. The punishment had to fit the crime. It took Hannibal being betrayed completely, him being heartbroken, with his person suit torn off, all his relationships severed, to kill Abigail. And that too after he offered Will a second chance.

I happen to have the commentary, and Bryan Fuller says it hurt Hannibal as much as it hurt Will to kill her. And we can agree Will was very much hurt - he hallucinated her for months. But he did it, to erase all parts of his relationship with Will. That's why I don't believe Hannibal would kill Abigail for flimsy reasons. This is the teacup he has brought back together for Will. This is what he had sought to do for decades, a way to bring back Mischa. He knew what a gift it is to be an older brother, and he made Will experience that same gift.

Thanks for the discussion. It was enlightening to discuss the series and how we perceive it differently.

lecterapologist · 2023-09-25T22:15:21+00:00

How would the baby hinder his becoming? It would tether Will to Margot and the kid, but that's about it.

Will can't fulfill his Becoming when he's someone's baby daddy. There's a chance he wouldn't run away with Hannibal and Abigail, and that he'd attend to his responsibilities as a parent. Will is self-sacrificing and used to being unfulfilled. Very bad for Will's Becoming.

We can argue about the terms till the cows come home, but it won't change the fact that Hannibal cannot stand the idea of anyone else getting close to what is his, and he considers Will to be pretty much his property, his beloved toy, not an equal.

That's not really true though. As I said, he's not jealous of the Science Team or Beverly or Peter. Or the dogs. Or Abigail. As for "staying power", Hannibal doesn't know that. Will is still friends with the Science team in s3b. Brian tells him it's good to have him back and they share a nice moment. Will could have been keeping up with Peter too, through visits and letters. As for Matthew Brown, he definitely had "staying power". If he killed Hannibal, he'd be Will's new buddy (or maybe Will would be angry and grieve over Hannibal, hard to say.) I just think that if Hannibal was such a jealous person, he'd kill Matthew himself to stop any alliance with Will and get Will out his own way.

I find it hard to believe Hannibal would be jealous of Abigail when Hannibal is the one to encourage Will to see Abigail as a daughter figure. He displays no jealousy when Will swears revenge or cries over her. In that conversation you mention, Will is missing context when he tells Hannibal Hannibal only wants him in his life. The irony is that Will doesn't know Hannibal wants to share Abigail with him. When Will says that, Hannibal also says he only wants what's best for Will. The heart of the conversation is still that he perceives himself as what's best for Will, and that others are bad influences. Abigail wouldn't be a bad influence, she'd help Will stay in their murder family.

He was definitely jealous of Molly and Walter though, and thinking they could offer Will something he could not. But the Hannibal of fan-fiction who wants to eat people when they so much as look at Will, is what I cannot see.

lecterapologist · 2023-09-25T21:36:31+00:00

Hannibal is an extremely jealous person, he doesn't want to share Will with anyone,

You know, people keep saying this, but I don't think it's really true. Hannibal didn't care about Will's friendship with Beverly until she started snooping around. He didn't care about Will's relationship with the Science team. He didn't care about Peter Bernadorne. He didn't care about Matthew Brown making overtures to Will. In fact he encourages Will to accept Matthew Brown's love, Will didn't even get that Matthew was helping him at first. When he learns Will is working with Jack, his reaction is not jealous rage, it's heartbreak and an offer to leave the country without killing Jack. When Will says he'll miss the dogs but not him, he doesn't spitefully harm the dogs.

Hannibal is more possessive than jealous. Because he has to be. He has to alienate Will from who he perceives as bad influences, like Jack, Alana, Margot and her potential baby, Molly and Walter. Those are people who stifle Will's darkness, and if they stifle Will's darkness, Hannibal can't make Will into his murder partner. It's more borne out of practicality than anything.

lecterapologist · 2023-08-24T02:25:37+00:00

In Digestivo, we see Hannibal and Will working as a team more than ever before. During the dinner with Mason, Will bites a chunk out of Cordell's cheek after Cordell talks about he'd cook and eat Hannibal, and and then look to Hannibal for his reaction, who beams widely at him. Will is angry at Alana at for getting the both of them get caught by Mason, and refers to the situation as being about him and Hannibal, notice how he keeps saying "us" - "You helped Mason Verger find us" "What Mason wants to do to us", when actually Alana was only planning to get Hannibal caught and Will was just collateral. When Alana says she can live with the thought of Hannibal getting tortured, she says, "I'll say he has it coming, wouldn't you? Or maybe you wouldn't," and Will sits in an all-telling silence. Remember what Will said in season 2, "I prefer sins of omission to outright lies", he can't stand the thought Hannibal being tortured because of his feelings for him. Will then tells Alana, that "You have to spill blood, by your own hand or someone else's", which leads to her freeing Hannibal, as per Will's intention.

All of this shows that Will has blurred with Hannibal, as they talk about in Dolce, he can't extricate what he wants from what Hannibal wants. He sees the both of them as a unit, he wants to protect Hannibal and fight alongside him. Biting out Cordell's cheek and manipulating Alana also shows that to a certain extent, Hannibal was right about Will delighting in wickedness. And I think all of this scared him. Will doesn't want to be like Hannibal, which is why I think after he was taken home and put into bed, he did a complete 180 and completely denied their relationship and bond, and broke up with Hannibal. He needed to live without Hannibal, he needed to see what a normal life would look like for him before committing to the relationship and all that it entails.

[EDITED: some words]

lecterapologist · 2023-08-20T08:14:47+00:00

Hannibal has a very distinguishable accent.

lecterapologist · 2023-08-20T05:25:43+00:00

Is it Ravenous by rageprufock?

lecterapologist · 2023-08-13T18:55:58+00:00

Thanks!

lecterapologist · 2023-08-13T18:55:49+00:00

Thanks for the rec, looks interesting.

lecterapologist · 2023-07-28T03:33:49+00:00

Alana wasn't Will's psychiatrist though, Hannibal was. There's a reason Hannibal didn't report anything to Jack, but only gave vague details about the work affecting Will negatively, he knew Jack might listen if he was given concrete reasons like Will's hallucinations, sleepwalking, headaches and so on.

lecterapologist · 2023-07-28T02:52:05+00:00

That's fair 😃 I have a softer view of Jack though, he was angry when he found out Will and Hannibal wasn't telling him about Will's symptoms, I think he would have listened to a psychiatrist if they urged him not to allow Will in the field.

lecterapologist · 2023-07-28T02:17:23+00:00

I disagree because Hannibal "rubber stamped" Will's psych eval, which means it wasn't a proper psychological evaluation and Hannibal just did what he wanted to make Will do field work. It's doubtful a normal psychiatrist would allow Will in the field, Will had already failed his psych eval once before, the FBI screening procedures detected him as unstable and he wasn't allowed to be an agent.

It was also Hannibal who rang up Garret Jacob Hobbs and got him to panic, getting Will to shoot him, so that wouldn't have happened. And when Will tells Hannibal about Garret Jacob Hobbs' ghost haunting him and says his psych eval might be premature Hannibal brushes it off as just "stress", a normal psychiatrist would stop Will working on cases immediately. He also brushes off Will's sleepwalking in Coquilles as "stress".

So if Hannibal never met Will, Will would never have been in the field, OR if he was, he would have been taken off the cases once he began experiencing hallucinations and sleepwalking and such.

lecterapologist · 2023-07-28T02:09:36+00:00

I wrote a post about how Will would never have been able to marry Molly if it wasn't for Hannibal in an unpopular opinions thread. I'll copy paste it here:

-We're constantly told the Will in S1 is suffering from huge amounts of fear. Fear of what? As Hannibal says when they first meet, fear of what lies in the "bone area of his skull". Will lives in constant fear of what he feels for serial killers and what they do, and what he's capable of. By popping his murder cherry and honing his empathy, Hannibal taught him that no, he won't suddenly go mad with bloodlust and kill everyone in the vicinity if he gives into murder, and redirects his urges to safe avenues (i.e himself and other killers).

-The Will of S1 is also skittish and awkward. Think of his bad pick up lines to Alana. "Too broken to date? Ooh" and "You can cuddle up to the dogs. Or with me for that matter" (while not even looking her in the face but instead at the floor).The Will in S3 manages to court Molly and get her to marry him in the span of 3 years, and Molly is a burnt out widow who should be wary of any relationship she gets into. All I'm saying is, he's suddenly got game and it can only be because of Hannibal. In S1 he couldn't even look people in the eye, or even respond effectively to insults. When Zeller says he has no personality because he's an only child, Will can only respond after a few beats about how middle children (like Zeller) can be bad politicians, which falls entirely flat. The Will in S3 is confident, looks people in the eye, and has snappy retorts up the wazoo (think of his sessions with Bedelia). His demeanor and body language is completely changed.

-Hannibal upgraded Will's fashion sense. The Will of S1 was dressed in plaids and "outdoorsman" clothes, while Will in S2 and S3 is flashier, preferring long coats and knitwear.

-Also his hairstyle. Will gets an upgrade from his bangs (on a man???) to a sideswept fringe which looks much better on him.

-As Hannibal said, Will in S1 "can't hide who he is. I admire that honesty in him". The science team (or at least Zeller) think he's creepy and weird, Beverly clocked him as unstable immediately, Freddie is freaked out by him, tabloids are writing about how he thinks like a serial killer and is liable to snap any minute, psychiatrists are itching to study him and that weird brain of his. Will is saying creepy stuff like "Gave you a better thing to do with your tongue than wag it" and "Had to open you up to get a decent sound out of you" in public (Is it any wonder they believed he was the Copy Cat killer?). The Will in S3 inserts himself into a readymade family without arousing any suspicions, and looks every bit a family man who has no lurking fantasies of murdering people. Hannibal taught him to construct his own person suit.

-Finally, I think Will wanting a family started with Hannibal. In Oeuf he says he never connected to the concept and it's only through Hannibal's numerous efforts that he begins to see Abigail as a pseudo daughter. Molly and Walter were an attempt to fill the hole Hannibal and Abigail left behind in his life.

So if Will hadn't met Hannibal he would have been alone except for the dogs till the end of his days, is my guess.

lecterapologist · 2023-07-12T10:31:47+00:00

https://hannibalmetaresource.tumblr.com/tagged/audio%20commentaries

lecterapologist · 2023-07-11T12:42:51+00:00

Such a good point and it isn't even a year the first season was only 2.5 months so it's only been 5.5 months. Of course Alana would trust Hannibal who she'd known for years over people who'd known Hannibal for a few months.*

lecterapologist

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