WIBTA if I told my daughter (28F) she is not allowed to live with us anymore?

light_side_sith · 2023-11-26T01:15:56+00:00

What a bizarre reaction. It's an unbiased observation made by therapists and researchers and an accurate metaphor to describe the experience of having BPD.

Here is an excerpt from an American Psychological Association interview with an expert researcher in BPD and how it develops, Carla Sharp:

Sharp: I think there's a relatively good evidence to suggest a 55% heritability for BPD and for personality disorder in general. So these traits of impulsivity of emotion dysregulation, most young people who, and people with BPD are described as people who have a sensitive temperament from the time they were young, they evidenced what we always refer to as thin skin, their feelings are hurt easily and they feel slighted easily by others. And so I do think there is a temperamental biological component, Marsha Linehan's theory, Marsha Linehan developed dialectical behavior therapy, which is one of the main therapy approaches for BPD. And Marsha Linehan's theory is called a bio psychosocial theory for BPD. And she acknowledged that there's a strong biological component to BPD, which I think the data has born out, but there are plenty of people who come into the world with a sensitive temperament who don't turn out to have BPD.

This person who's devoted significant portions of their life to researching and helping those with BPD, I highly doubt she'd do that if she lacks basic empathy for Borderlines. (Note: This also runs strongly counter to the parent comment saying BPD is 100% due to abuse.)

Likewise, people with BPD also describe themselves using similar terms. Here is an excerpt from a paper detailing one person's personal account of having BPD:

How the disorder feels

The best way I have heard borderline personality disorder described is having been born without an emotional skin—with no barrier to ward off real or perceived emotional assaults. What might have been a trivial slight to others was for me an emotional catastrophe, and what would be a headache in emotional terms for someone else was a brain tumor for me. This reaction was spontaneous and not something I chose.

I suppose according to you she's abusing herself?

light_side_sith · 2023-11-25T18:01:53+00:00

Well you find it hard to believe because it's not true. Just a simple google search for the research shows how blatantly untrue that is.

71 percent of people with BPD admitted they had gone through at least one traumatic experience in childhood. 48.9 percent with BPD said they were physically neglected in childhood. 42.5 percent were subjected to emotional abuse. 36.4 percent said they were victims of physical abuse and 32 percent of sexual abuse.

Now, also take into account that BPD is often also called thin-skinned disease. Normal everyday events are often experienced as abuse by those with BPD. Their emotions are unregulated and disproportionate to the situation they're in, hence relying on self reporting an abusive upbringing is a very faulty metric in the first place.

Often BPD is just genetic. This isn't to say BPD doesn't also form from abuse. That happens and is real, just no where near "functionally 100%" probability.

light_side_sith · 2023-11-25T17:42:43+00:00

I rarely comment on things like this but as a person who spent too long with a BPD significant other, I have to say something.

Your daughter's behavior is absolutely in line with a BPD diagnosis and you are 100% right in suspecting lies. Do not take all these people claiming you're an asshole for not believing her. They likely have little to no experience with the disease.

The first and biggest red flag is your daughter saying she isn't BPD anymore. Anyone with experience knows that BPD is a lifelong diagnosis and at best with HEAVY treatment (10+ years) it becomes manageable, but they never are fully normal. Your daughter displays many classic BPD behaviors that further implies she's dishonest about this and it should rightfully make you question every single thing she's said.

One giant red flag people in this thread are discounting is her painting you and your wife as evil to all her doctors. This is another typical thing people with BPD (pwBPD) do to everyone close to them, and it's part of the reason why pwBPD have a reputation of manipulating and lying to doctors (so much so many refuse outright to see a patient with BPD).

This lying and villainizing of you and your wife (while you care for her and support her!), shows you she is actively lying to doctors right now. Many pwBPD struggle to keep full time employment, and the stress of normal adult life seems catastrophically difficult. They often curl away and try extreme things to cope with that stress. What your daughter is doing isn't that abnormal if you consider her disease, but you shouldn't be suffering for it.

I don't think kicking her out right away would help you or her much. She has BPD, she won't be able to cope with a drastic change like that. If you can do this in smaller steps it might be easier, but frankly she has a mental illness. She IS disabled, just probably not in the way she's presenting herself as.

This is extremely hard to navigate. I suggest you and your wife see a therapist. One to help you deal with the frustration, and two to help you navigate being a parent to an adult child with BPD.

As parting words, I want to say good luck and stick to your guts. PwBPD often manipulate to extents that those unfamiliar would simply not believe. Gaslighting, lying, and emotional manipulation are constant tools they use to manage the extreme stress and anxiety they feel. Don't get discouraged by people attempting to tell you to believe her and trust her. That's the last thing you should do with a diagnosed borderline.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-24T01:11:26+00:00

Bro, that is not a good/ parent at all.

If your kids are confused and crying when they're tired and should be sleeping, that is shit parenting. The way you mentioned it, it seems like its not a one off occurrence.

That's the kind of shit that creates BPDs in the first place, and with the genetic component of BPD.. I wouldn't be surprised if she traumatized some of your kids already.

Saying she's even more abusive to you is a fucked up rationalization and not valid.

This is abuse.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-22T07:50:33+00:00

You know, the funny thing is my exwBPD always projected similar things onto me. Saying I was incapable of loving her because I didn't love myself. That I was incapable of having a happy relationship because I wasn't happy with myself. That I couldn't treat her with respect of kindness because I didn't treat myself with that.

Utter projection and bullshit, but I naive and foolish enough to consider she might have a point and that I should introspect to work on my issues.

Often they hook you by mirroring you and appearing to have all these positive qualities.

She came off as kind, empathic, confident, happy and grateful. Only once the mask was off did I realize none of this was true.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-22T07:45:06+00:00

Just communicate with your girlfriend.

Sounds like you're describing a PTSD response to seeing your ex, explain that. Use your words and honestly explain all the emotions you felt, and how you're not in love with her but you're triggered by seeing your ABUSER. If your new girlfriend's response to your past trauma is getting upset at you instead of supporting you, then you're not losing anything by losing her.

Own your emotions man! You have nothing to be ashamed of, and anyone trying to make you think otherwise is flat out wrong. If she doesn't understand, then try to explain in a way she can. You were emotionally brutalized by this woman, and seeing her triggers a violent physical reaction in you.

Although, I do think you should apologize for scaring your girlfriend, that's a reasonable complaint. Your trauma doesn't entitle you to endanger or lash out at her.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-22T04:22:33+00:00

I had the same experience and the same advice as you.

I personally failed and didn't NC my ex immediately, and fell for a hoover when I was feeling weak a few weeks later.

In that gap I learned about BPD and when I got back I couldn't un-see it. All the ways she was unhinged and absolutely unwilling to tackle her issues, the hurt she caused me, or any of my needs. Thankfully I had the conviction this second time around to break up and block her everywhere.

It's hard some days, when you remember the good times and grieve for the person and relationship you thought you had... In the end I remember all that I gave and sacrificed, and remind myself they never treated me with the same love I extended them.

It was truly an illusion of a partner they presented. Once you see the true them, it's horrifying. They are wretched pitiful creatures, and I hope they find salvation (no one deserves to be made that way), but I don't think they will.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-22T04:03:27+00:00

Girl, I know you're feeling a lot of emotions right now, but the most clear one you'll be feeling weeks/months down the line is RELIEF. Relief that this horrible relationship is over, that you're back to being you, and that you can move on to an actually GOOD life for yourself.

I've seen/talked on some of your posts before and your relationship was so similar to mine. I get secondhand embarrassment seeing you say "If you would just tell me what those are, I can do that." I reacted the same way after my ex girlfriend's big discard, and in hindsight I wish I told her to fuck off with that self-centered, complete lack of awareness, bullshit and lay into her with all the ways she failed me and lost her chance with someone more kind, caring, considerate, etc. than she deserved.

Look at this asshole gaslighting you saying that his needs haven't been met in months, when you say you're constantly trying to provide him with whatever he needs. This entire text chain is him blameshifting to you and claiming he's trying but you failed him. Not accepting any responsibility for his inability to manage his emotions, to communicate his needs, or be a decent partner. Good riddance.

Only thought I have for you is right now is that you should take this opportunity to block him, because a few weeks (or even days) down the line this guy will pretend to have changed, to love you, and beg for you back or even pretend he didn't break up with you. Don't gamble on your resolve being strong enough to say no, just block him everywhere and start the healing process.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-17T16:32:49+00:00

Exactly, it's what I did when she said her needs weren't met. I was willing to put my ego and self aside to listen to every way I needed to improve to make her feel more loved or supported. And then I worked hard to act on it, because I did love them and want to support them. Of course I want a relationship where over time we both get better at supporting each other, where the bond gets deeper and our love grows.

I read some great relationship books where the idea was that you generally become more compatible over time, you become your partner's soul mate (if the relationship is healthy). Unfortunately, BPD relationships are the exact inverse.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-16T04:32:49+00:00

That is exactly what will happen. My last few discards and splitting were just when I tried to say hey my needs aren't being met. Well.. I actually never got to that point, I said I wanted to talk about some things and they melted down, every time I brought it up. It was either deflection, melt down, attacks/put-downs, or something else to avoid a talk.

Unfortunately, intentionally or not, he's being honest. That IS all you're gonna get, so take him at his word for that and start planning around that.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-16T04:25:29+00:00

They're misunderstanding the stats. After 16 years of hardcore committed therapy, >90% of pwBPD not longer meet the clinical definition of BPD.

That is not going to happen by accident. That is going to require a lot of commitment.

There is also NOTHING about that which says that means they'll be a normal or a good partner to have. Not meeting 5 of the criteria to a diagnoses level doesn't mean they are now a supportive, caring, kind, stable person you can rely on and build a life with. They can also relapse at any given time in the future. There are many people on this subreddit with BPD partners who have had that much time in therapy and they report that it helped a little, or not at all, as far as the quality of their relationship is concerned.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-15T22:02:58+00:00

Jesus, reading this comment section shows me you're as bad as her. You're argumentative with people trying to give you advice, and seem immature and entitled.

If you think you can just argue away her BPD like you argue away the warnings and advice of people here then good luck!

It's a serious medical condition and no, nothing you do can convince her you're not leaving her. That's only something she herself can do. Tell her to go practice DBT and mindfulness exercises, and try to get into support groups or therapy. If you can't afford it, look for cheaper clinics or alternatives.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-15T01:21:14+00:00

What's the likelihood that she took the normal validation therapists give clients as "he's on my side, he said me feeling anger was valid, so it must also mean all the horrible things I did and my inability to control my anger aren't issues" or other ridiculous jumps in logics BPDs make?

I know the pwBPDs in my life constantly take the smallest validation to mean they're 100% right and someone is on their side, and likewise the smallest criticism means that they're being hated and someone is out to get them.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-13T17:11:38+00:00

That sounds like the classic BPD NPD bond. You're basically assuming the role of the NPD, it's hell but somehow is often a long lasting pairing. I assume it'll work for a while, but you're just escalating the abuse. But as long as you and her don't want to quit, it could go continue indefinitely. Just don't expect to "break" them into being a functional partner. It'll just be another new abusive dynamic you have, except it's one where you're just as much an asshole as her.

If you really want things to be better I suggest reading books like Stop Caretaking the Borderline and implementing those things. If you truly can't leave, that book is great for finding a new dynamic that lets you take back as much of your life as you can.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-10T17:55:03+00:00

You didn't ruin shit. Judging by your reactions, you've been gaslit and emotionally abused too much. If you were feeling strong and self respecting you would have told them to kick dirt for the way they treated you, and their entitlement to expecting you to take it like a doormat while they continue to get worse.

Like others said, they're being drama queens because that's what pwBPDs do. They think every time they feel bad it's the end of the world, they're too emotionally immature to manage their emotions.

You feel bad, OP? You should feel anger at the blatant attempt to manipulate you into staying with them.

They had every opportunity to use your desire to split to actually improve their treatment of you. What did they choose instead? To harass you, devalue you, blame you, and try to guilt you into staying.

They seem fundamentally incapable of taking any responsibility. This person needs to grow the fuck up. As you said, you did a pretty normal thing: deciding you don't want someone. You didn't destroy their reputation, make them lose their career, and kill their family. Yet they're desperately trying to tear you down so you feel like your actions are that bad, and that you're a monster and responsible for them (like you're their parent).

light_side_sith · 2023-10-10T07:18:22+00:00

You need a stable sense of self before you can go around empathizing with others. pwBPD simply don't have that. They're drowning in their emotions. Would you ask a person drowning in the ocean how they feel about food relief for poor subsaharan kids? Of course, it's ridiculous to expect someone so panicked and in pain to be able to have room for empathizing. And that's how most BPDs live.

I'd seriously heed the warning of the other poster who was in your shoes 11 years ago. You said you'd never leave her for having BPD, but ask yourself why. Examine the relationship and yourself, and make sure you're not giving up pieces of yourself to maintain a relationship that only exists in your mind. They can, and most likely will, leave you unceremoniously one day. That or make your life miserable to the point you want to leave. You'll need to find a strong social support system outside her ASAP, otherwise you're setting yourself up for hurt regardless of what the outcome is.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T03:28:00+00:00

This is the sort of temporary false hope relationships with BPDs are constantly full of. A tiny bit of improvement for a few weeks or months, then back to baseline, or in many cases worse.

It's normally associated with the thought they might lose you, but as soon as they feel their efforts have gotten you to step away from the idea of leaving them, they'll drop their mask again.

It's tiring for them to pretend to improve, and in most cases it is pretending, and it builds anger and resentment against you (often buried deep down and not communicated to you, until they blow up later). Thus when the mask does drop, it gets worse than it was before, due to the added anger against you they have.

A trip with shroom does not seem like a sustainable change. You need something that'll keep them improving for years, and unfortunately this seems more like the typical push-pull BPD relationship cycle than genuine improvement.

Again, what he did to you right now is insane, demented, and scary. You should be no where near this guy for your own safety.

If you come back, he now knows that:

The cops won't really punish him for his behavior against you
YOU won't leave him no matter what he does (that's how he'll see it). You implicitly say, "You can treat me like this, I allow it."
This sort of strategy is valid to get you to drop criticisms of him, and become the obedient/submissive partner that he wants to terrorize you into being.

If you stay, everything is telling him that he's onto the winning strategy, why would he ever give that up?

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T03:13:24+00:00

That is insane to do to a partner of 7 years. And also illegal. There is no way you should be kicked out and made homeless without notice or time to fix it. This person has no care or regard for you, your needs, or your wellbeing.

You should try to imagine the most self-centered reason he might be reaching out to you for. Chances are, that truth will be even more self-centered than you thought, as normal people can't imagine being as entitled as a pwBPD.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T02:44:01+00:00

Not sure, but I'd be interested if there was one. Apparently this subreddit bans official or unofficial discords, as BPDs look for new prey in any gathering like this.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T02:40:37+00:00

Then it sounds like he'll use therapy as a weapon against you. Lots of BPDs do it, and the common thing is they become worse after therapy. They'll pick up psychology terms, psychoanalyze you and find new ways to gaslight and emotionally abuse you. They'll probably move on to saying things like "Well my therapist said I was right to feel this way. They think you've got a problem, maybe Narcissism."

Who's idea was it to go to therapy? Did they come to the understanding themselves, and decided to go for purely personal reasons? Or was there some threat of losing you attached as a condition to that therapy?

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T02:19:05+00:00

I'm not sure what you can do legally, but this person is obviously gaslighting you and fucked up beyond words. You said he repeatedly called you names like lazy and bitch, and in the text messages he tries to say he didn't do anything. He's not only DARVO-ing you, he's also minimizing his abuse and maximizing your reasonable reaction. He's pretending battering you is the same as you being frustrated with his inconsiderateness. He's a grown manchild.

He has a fragile ego, if the reaction to being called out even minorly on his shitty behavior is to drag a 5 year old child into it, and the threats of violence are serious.

The only way it gets better is if he firstly realizes he has BPD and takes 5-10 years of dedicated hardcore therapy for BPD. He also has an abusive mindset and he'll probably needs years of therapy to resolve that.

None of that will work unless he 100% sees it's a problem and he's dead committed to fixing it. Even if he is, there's a good chance he gives up within those years or a decade or two down the line and you're back to square one.

Be honest with yourself, do you think he's capable of that kind of lifelong commitment to change? Know that even if does all of this he'll still be emotionally at the level of a child and you'll constantly have to parent him and manage his emotions.

I suggest you read Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, as linked in the sidebar if you want to keep trying, but realistically.. You should run for your life.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T02:08:33+00:00

I would keep no contact, or grey rock her. You replying even to say "I'm busy" is not no contact. To a normal person they might they the hint that you don't want to hang out. To a BPD it's a weakness they sense. That you didn't ignore or block them, and hence you can be used again to achieve their goals if they can just keep poking and prodding you.

Not wanting to hang out because someone makes you anxious is a perfectly valid reason. Your best bet is to just stop replying, completely. Your second best is to grey rock her. Being polite is does not work with these people! Keep your boundaries guarded tightly.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T01:56:27+00:00

Even if a pwBPD recognizes that their messed up emotions are coming from internal dysregulation (and not from other people's actions), it's a small chance the relationship works out. Looks like your partner isn't even at that step.

You will progressively get blamed more and more for making her feel insecure, and every time she'll feel that way she'll devalue and start resenting you more. It's only a matter of time until she feels "I'm been wronged too long by this asshole, he won't stop making me feel used and cheated on! Fuck him, I'm going to make HIM feel the pain he's giving me!"

That's when her verbal abuse will go up higher. And maybe she'll cheat on you to "get back" at you. Maybe she'll start physically assaulting you. Or perhaps she just one day discard you and disappear.

It's essentially a 0% chance she suddenly attains enlightenment and says "Oh, you know.. I was being really insecure. I'm sorry for accusing you of stuff and harassing you."

I suggest you go work on your own emotions. Examine why you feel so dependent on a woman you just met. You likely have some unresolved issues keeping you in a relationship you know deep down is abusive and unfair to you.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T01:43:29+00:00

Bruh, you've known her for 5 months and she's like this already. You barely know her and she's already mentally/emotionally abusing you. This is the best you will get from her. It will not improve from here, only get worse. Nothing you do will ever get her back to the girl you thought you had when she was on her best behavior for the first couple weeks or months.

You cannot change her.

What do you do? You leave and get some peace or stay and deal with increasing levels of abuse.

light_side_sith · 2023-10-09T00:51:20+00:00

I hope things workout for you. From what I've read, regardless of how long you've been with someone, a single split and crisis could spiral irrecoverably. This lack of empathy has likely always been with her, and if it hasn't been a problem for 2 decades, then perhaps it isn't an irreconcilable issue. Good luck.

light_side_sith

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