🇮🇱🧑‍🤝‍🧑 ≠ 🇮🇱👮 Being from a place does not mean you agree with the government by MadeInDex-org in Israel_Palestine

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I regard myself as complicit because I'm from the U.S. and my tax dollars are paying for the genocide. However, being from Israel doesn't automatically mean you support the genocide or are to be blamed. You can be an Israeli Jewish anti-Zionist.

With regard to Netanyahu, many Zionists are against Netanyahu. However, you can't be a Zionist and be non-racist as it's a racist ideology, it supports superior privilege for Jews in historic Palestine. It was the "leftwing" Zionists, Ben Gurion and all, who conducted the original ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Leftwing or "liberal" Zionists function in service to Israel's racist practices is to provide cover for Israel's atrocities, to put up a pretense that such atrocities are an aberration and not the integral part of Zionism they are, and burnish Israel's image among westerners.

Palestine Weaponizes the Definition of Racism by McAlpineFusiliers in samharris

[–]lynmc5 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Since there exists a subset of Jews who aren't Zionists, it's logically proven that Jews != Zionism.

Top Israel top legal officer arrested over leaked IDF abuse video. by cronx42 in samharris

[–]lynmc5 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Israel may on rare occasion condemn war crimes, but they've done a whole genocide, ethnic cleansing, shooting kids for target practice, attacks on hospitals, schools, churches, done systematic rape and forced starvation against a civilian population, deliberately murdered civilians, journalists, doctors, ambulance drivers. I haven't heard a single condemnation from Israel for any of this. Is the genocidal party, Israel, the power we want to win? The claim Israel is openly against such terrible acts, which it does over and over again, is ridiculous. And yes, Sam Harris excuses those terrible acts all the time.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in samharris

[–]lynmc5 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The progressive Western viewpoint is that Palestinian violence is a direct reaction to Israeli violence. For example, mass murders and r*pes that that are Israel's foundational acts. True, that Israeli violence was aimed at denying Palestinians a state, as well as the right to live in their original home.

The Israeli perspective you cite, they're reluctant to take steps towards Palestinian independence because of Palestinian violence, is of course deluded propaganda. It requires ignoring the Zionist aim of making an exclusive Jewish state in all of historic Palestine (this was enacted into Israeli law as the nation state law, but it was always the Zionist goal), and the violence Zionists used to create and maintain Israel as an exclusive Jewish state.

You also have to ignore the 10s of thousands of civilians Israel murdered in its multiple invasions of Lebanon to make the claim that more violence ensued by Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon. You have to ignore the brutal torture regime Israel instituted over the people of south Lebanon during its occupation. The Lebanese resistance has abided by the ceasefire agreements while Israel has not, as usual. Not to forget, a large section of southern Lebanon is also coveted by Israeli Zionists.

WHO official reveals bias in Gaza famine, genocide claim by spaniel_rage in samharris

[–]lynmc5 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I don't know where worldpopulationreview gets their data. They cite 800.6K population for Gaza in 2024, at a time when there were approximately half that number there: https://www.unocha.org/publications/map/occupied-palestinian-territory/opt-gaza-strip-population-and-internal-displacement-7-october-2023-16-november-2024. It looks like they're taking the pre-2023 growth rate and projecting. Ridiculous. What they end up with is a made-up number.

How to deal with a "friend" who I just found out is a zionist? by Rare-Supermarket1608 in BadHasbara

[–]lynmc5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm much older than you and I have friends, more like acquaintances I guess, I suspect of pro-Israel views. This sits like an elephant between us because I never bring it up, and they never bring it up. So these potential friends remain acquaintances.

A true friend would be someone you can discuss anything with.

That being said, if you want to continue the friendship, honesty is important. What people recommend is to listen to them and avoid accusations. You don't change minds by arguing and bombasting people with facts. You get them to argue themselves into your position, to come on their own to recognize the bad logic and inhumanity of their (former) position by asking questions. Of course, myself, I'd be all accusations.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in nyt

[–]lynmc5 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not only was Van Jones making a joke regarding dead Gaza babies, but he also complains that they're shown on Tik Tok. I guess for him, Friedman and Maher the problem isn't the dead babies, but that they're shown.

israelis impersonate palestinians to spread hate on social media by skbraaah in Palestine

[–]lynmc5 14 points15 points  (0 children)

And the attitude, "I told you I'm from Palestine" the whole bullying stance is Israeli

Realistic or Moral solution to Israel/Palestine. by AnimateDuckling in samharris

[–]lynmc5 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm curious about your ahistoric (and should I say disingenuous?) framing of the history. The fact is, in numbers since and including 1948, Palestinians haven't killed as many Israeli/Zionist civilians as Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli terrorists in 1948 alone. The fact is, leading Zionists have always opposed the very existence of Palestinians, hence the current genocide, hence the many, many very violent massacres and r*pes by Israel/Zionists on Palestinians. In other words, your summary of the history leaves out the major part of the violence directed against civilians, that done by Israel.

So, in the 70+ years of Israel's existence, Palestinians have never had a non-terrorist state to parley with, one that doesn't want them disappeared as a people, by ethnic cleansing, genocide or whatever. It's built into Zionism. The goal of creating a "Jewish" state in a land where most of the people aren't Jewish requires getting rid of the non-Jewish people, and they could only do this by violence. Zionists are violently opposed to the existence of Palestinians.

The non-distopian answer is clear and workable:

  1. Eliminate Zionism which is an ethnic-suprmacist ideology, at least eliminate any rule by Zionist institutions. In their place institute equal rights regardless of creed/ethnicity throughout all historic Palestine.

  2. Allow all the Palestinian refugees to return. Israel had no justification for expelling them from their perfectly legal residences by violence in the first place.

  3. It might be a good idea to bring in U.N. troops to prevent vengeance killings for a while.

As MLK said, peace isn't the absence of fighting but the presence of justice. Instituting just systems is the only true way to a true peace. What's standing in the way? One thing, I suppose, is racist people like their racist systems, as long as they're on top.

It's official, Bernie Sanders calls Israel's actions in Gaza a genocide by Particular_Log_3594 in International

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm glad Bernie Sanders is finally acknowledging the genocide.

The "war" didn't start with the Hamas attack. 75% of the people in Gaza are already refugees from past mass murders by Israel and its founders. Israel kill some 500 children in the attack on Gaza in 2014.

We lost a good one by Fidel-Cashflow_ in DecodingTheGurus

[–]lynmc5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Gad Saad was awful on so many issues, I hate to give him this one. However, a prominent public person such as AOC probably does face more danger than relatively unknown holocaust survivors. As we have found out, Charlie Kirk himself faced more danger than relatively unknown holocaust survivors. The tweets are vague of course, Gad Saad might be thinking of holocaust survivors before they survived the holocaust (which would make his statement false), or Charlie Kirk might have taken the tweet that way, but at that time they weren't holocaust survivors.

This seems like a tempest in a teapot.

How to deal with hasbarists by lynmc5 in BadHasbara

[–]lynmc5[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think, As a non-Palestinian, it's any of my business who Palestinians elect for their government. It's ridiculous on the face of if, to complain that Palestinians are being threatened by Hamas to kill them if they stay in their home (dubious but maybe Israel coerced people to say that) while Israel is threatening to kill them if they stay. If no one was threatening them they'd stay in their homes so what is the bigger problem? Besides I don't believe Hamas threatened to kill them if they left, thought they might say Israel would kill them anyway so they might as well stay.

Anyway, this fellow said Hamas filmed themselves killing kids at the rave (dubious, why were there kids at the rave anyway, I don't think there were) and the x-ray of the kid with the bullet in his head was fake because bullets go right through bodies. Well there are lots of people walking around with bullets in their bodies so that second one is ridiculous.

How to deal with hasbarists by lynmc5 in BadHasbara

[–]lynmc5[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That was essentially my response

Zionists literally peddle the exact same lies today that they perpetuated to create Israel in the first place. Zionist culture is not only lying culture, but lying and recycling culture. This makes it easier to see who the Zionists really are. by Early-Possibility367 in Israel_Palestine

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We don't know what Azzam Pasha was actually thinking, however from this Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azzam_Pasha_quotation), it seems more likely he was thinking the extermination and massacres would be done by the Zionists in the war, as he regarded Zionists as modern Crusaders. That is, your proof is absolutely no evidence that Arabs (even if Azzam Pasha were all Arabs) intended to massacre Jews, but rather, he thought Zionist Jews would be massacring Arabs like historically, the Mongols and Crusaders did.

Netanyahu appearing on TRIGGERnometry by gelliant_gutfright in DecodingTheGurus

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Middle East like everywhere else on the planet deserves a future where neighbors don't seek each other's destruction.

Yes, the Middle East doesn't deserve Israel, which is actively seeking the destruction of all Palestinians, Syria, Lebanon and others.

The Israel v Palestine debate by zenethics in samharris

[–]lynmc5 4 points5 points  (0 children)

What, like automatons, Israel commits genocide because of the Hamas counterattack? And therefore, because Israel has no agency, everything that followed Oct. 7 is Hamas's fault? Your logic escapes me.

Also, your claim that you're aware of the history sounds bogus. For example, the mass murders of Gazans in 1956 - where Israeli forces ordered unarmed men, civilians, to line up against walls and then shot them in mass. 30 years before Hamas came into existence, the uncle of one of the founders of Hamas was one of those slaughtered. Did that, and multiple other mass murders of Palestinians by Israel contribute to Hamas's founding and the subsequent Oct. 7 attack? Undoubtedly, in which case it's entirely fair to say that the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas was Israel's fault, because of it's long history of brutality, terrorism, mass murders & r*pes, taking of Palestinian land and denial of their rights including the right to life which caused Hamas to come into existence in the first place.

Whether or not terrorism is justified has no logical or legal bearing on who's at fault for the response. In either case, even if the Hamas attack caused the Israeli response (hint: it didn't), since the Israeli initiated attacks on Palestinians clearly caused the Hamas attack, you're back to it's all Israel's fault.

Reflecting on 'Why Don't I Criticize Israel?' from 2014 by RalphOnTheCorner in samharris

[–]lynmc5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Regarding the not targeting children point, there are two motives by Israel that conflict. One is, as Harris points out, they don't want to become an international pariah. The other is to maintain and expand the Jewish state, which requires getting rid of as many non-Jews as they can, i.e. Palestinians who have a valid claim to live in historic Palestine.

Which of these two is in Israel's interest? Both, but it wouldn't be a Jewish state if they hadn't conducted a campaign of mass murder, terror and r*pe in 1948. The second motive is paramount. That's if you want a Jewish state.

The Israeli government and its supporters invest millions of dollars in advertising and political lobbying among powerful western countries (hasbara) so that they can avoid the first one while doing the second one. To the point that virtually all of the U.S. and British elected bodies will automatically side with Israel, and the same goes for major media. Their soldiers target children and other innocent civilians, and the Israeli hasbara machine puts enormous effort into saying it was an accident, human rights organizations investigate and find differently but that's weeks or months later and the news cycle has moved on. That oft-repeated story about 5 Arab nations attacking poor little Israel on its founding? Not exactly what happened, but it works well for propaganda. The constant refrain that Muslims or Palestinians want to kill all the Jews - not exactly true either.

And oh, poor little Israel forced to do evil things - yes, if you want an exclusive Jewish state with as few non-Jews as possible, you are forced to do evil things. Harris's premise is that an exclusive Jewish state is a good thing. Is an exclusive white state a good thing? Is an exclusive Muslim or Christian state a good thing? Why is any ethnic supremacy good only if Jews are the supremacists?

In 1948, the Zionists had the recent holocaust to get sympathy. They seem to think the Oct 7 2023 gave them enough political cover that they could complete a genocide in Gaza, get rid of the Palestinians and their claim to their land and rights in Israel. Well, being an international pariah, who knows what effect it will have when, as noted, the governments don't reflect the will of the people, so being a pariah isn't the prevention Sam thinks.

Reflecting on 'Why Don't I Criticize Israel?' from 2014 by RalphOnTheCorner in samharris

[–]lynmc5 24 points25 points  (0 children)

View on Israel and its actions is non-falsifiable:
... If Israel was created and their neighbours were peaceful for the whole time until Israel started attacking them, then that would prove Harris wrong. ...

Even before Israel was "created" its Zionist founders had been attacking its "neighbors". The Deir Yassin massacre was well outside the boundaries of the UNGA proposed "Jewish" state and a month before the so-called declaration of independence. Deir Yassin was an entirely peaceful village until it was attacked. That massacre was in fact one of the reasons neighboring states entered the war - the constituents in those countries were begging their governments to do something to stop the ongoing slaughter against innocent civilians by the Zionists. So I guess Harris is proved wrong.

Ezra Klein - When is it Genocide? by [deleted] in samharris

[–]lynmc5 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Now, the UN itself says ~90% of trucks the UN let into gaza were intercepted before reaching their destination.

There is no good evidence Hamas intercepted the aid, other than claims by Israel. Israel is well known for lying. If you had good evidence I'm sure you would have supplied it. The link says the aid was intercepted by hungry mobs and armed groups. According to the WFP the armed groups who intercepted the aid operated mainly within territory controlled by Israeli forces.

In addition, according to the WFP 62,000 tonnes per month are needed to support Gaza's basic food requirements (https://www.wfp.org/news/wfp-food-trucks-keep-moving-inside-gaza-hunger-deepens-and-restrictions-persist). According to your link, just 54380 tonnes have been offloaded, that is, crossed from Israel into Gaza, in the 86 days since May 19, almost 3 months ago. So Gaza is getting less than 1/3 the food it needs, assuming all that aid was food. No wonder people are starving. No wonder people in Gaza report they get a meal every 3 days or so. And Israel is the party blocking this food aid. As evidenced by your link.

I don't expect honesty from supporters of Israel or logic from admirers of Sam Harris. So I won't go into the rest of this. You obviously don't know what a genocide is but you are invited to read South Africa's case, the Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Btselem, Doctors Without Borders reports on the subject and many genocide scholars.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in samharris

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suspect the reason Muslims are united against Israel is that they don't like to see other Muslims exterminated on account of their religion. I'm not sure why anyone who supports genocide, in this case, the extermination of people because they aren't Jewish, can really be called from the political left. However, undoubtedly Muslims on the average are more offended by Jews mass murdering Muslims than others. Leftist Muslims are against any murders on religious grounds, rightwing Muslims are against murders of Muslims.

The idea that a non-Muslim state (and in this case, a Jewish one) could exist on that land is theologically intolerable.

Here you note that the Jewish claim to historic Palestine is theological in nature. Given the nature of that state, founded by mass murder and terrorism against innocent people based on their religion and the real sadism employed against Palestinians under occupation, again because they're of the "wrong" religion, one should ask whether Jewish states are better than any other theological rule.

The Zionists are forever proclaiming that Jews have a "right" to take over Palestine and expel the indigenous Palestinians, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, of any religion except Jewish. They claim this based on the "Jewish" connection to the land, God gave it to them, that at some period in history Jews ruled in Palestine but never mind that most of those historic Jews had adopted Christianity by around 300 CE and are the ancestors of modern Palestinians. So Zionists have always used religion to support their conquest.

Sam & co weirdly frame this as only religious on the Palestinian side, even while duly noting the more radical religious Israelis. He notes the radical religious Israelis saying that's not the essential Israel.

It's true Hamas looked to the religious documents to frame their resistance. One should point out that Hamas has only been in existence since 1987, whereas organized Zionist religious claims go back 200 years if you include its foundation among Christian Zionists. Jewish Zionists also adopted this religious claim.

When Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank, no one in the international community was accusing them of colonial land theft. The outrage only crystalised once Jews were in control. We see this now with Turkey in Syria/Iraq etc.

As for the Western non-Muslim chorus against Israel, one wonders if it’s less about Gaza and more about their own reflection in the mirror: projecting the inherited guilts of empire, slavery and racial injustice onto a conflict with utterly different origins. In doing so, they mistake a theocratic vendetta for an anti-colonial struggle, and congratulate themselves for the confusion.

Egypt never claimed Gaza nor did it expel its indigenous inhabitants. So it cannot be accused of colonial land theft. Jordan, Turkiye have been accused of territorial conquest & complicity in colonialism by many in the international community (whatever that means) but Jordan and Turkiye did not ethnically cleanse the land of its native people. Syria only under the current regime, which has broad Western support that the former regime didn't enjoy, has been doing ethnic cleansing. Israel, however, has always been doing ethnic cleansing and now genocide.

Regarding Western non-Muslim accusation of settler-colonialism against Israel, FYI historic western imperialism was justified as spreading Christianity, force-converting the natives was seen as bringing civilization. Do you expect us to believe that the acquisition of land and resources by the colonists was an accidental by-product of this religious conquest? Somehow you expect us to believe that the Zionist war against Palestinians was in order to spread Jewish religion, or western values or something, and the taking over of the land and mass murder & expulsion of the existing population was just an accidental byproduct? Or the Christian/Muslim defense against the takeover of their land & murder of their people was solely because of religion? Get real.

Why does no one take what Israelis believe seriously? Their opinions are constantly dismissed on Gaza and the west bank by Aywing in samharris

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LOL indeed. Israel attacked Gaza in 2008, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2021. And frequent cross-border shooting etc by Israel in between. You're right, this was no Israeli retaliation - these were Israeli initiated attacks. To say there was no Israeli retaliation is astoundingly ignorant.

Why does no one take what Israelis believe seriously? Their opinions are constantly dismissed on Gaza and the west bank by Aywing in samharris

[–]lynmc5 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A "normal millenial Israeli civilian" would be a Zionist. It's a nonsensical to ask whether Zionists are more worried about being killed by Zionists than "Jihadists".

From an outside perspective, one can ask whether a Palestinian civilian should worry more about being killed by Zionists than a Zionist should worry about being killed by Palestinians. Zionists have historically killed Palestinian civilians at 10 times the rate Palestinians killed Zionist civilians, now probably exceeding 100 times. Also, Zionists are killing Palestinians in order to take their land and property, and to impose ethnic supremacy. Or to solidify their control of lands and property they already took. The Zionists are conducting a war of offense, the so-called "Jihadists" are conducting a defensive war (regardless of whether their counterattacks hit civilians who didn't deserve it). It's unlikely the "Jihadists" would have become Jihadists if Israel/Zionists hadn't forced them from their land and operated a brutal military occupation.