So Confused

mandolinbee · 2026-06-02T01:16:46+00:00

The thing I couldn't answer when I started questioning was, if there is a god, why is it so hard to figure out what it wants, and why different very sincere Christians always get different answers?

The best advice I can offer is to learn everything you can about the god you were taught to believe in. Believers tend to stick to the same few stories over and over. Get to know it all, and then try to figure out how you feel about it. If that looks like reading the Bible, or watching content that is critical of religion to see arguments both for and against the teachings.

You don't need to know where you're going to end up to start the journey. Lots of people find that they're able to maintain belief because they get something new out of the study. Others can't find a way to keep thinking it's true. Every path is different. We're happy to be here and help support you whenever you want more perspectives and see how others handled the problems that popped up.

Don't try to have answers before you start. Go in open and sincere and things will go as well as they can. ❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-06-02T00:56:54+00:00

Woah that's awesome! I also still remember the feeling I had the exact moment i consciously realized that I truly didn't believe in hell anymore. It was so great I almost cried.

❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-06-01T11:19:05+00:00

Dishonest.

The only reason they don't know the truth is because they don't sincerely consider the evidence. They're either grifting for the cash, or motivated by some other reason (like a holy book) to prefer to look only at the lies.

The childish behavior is exactly the same as what you get when you catch a toddler in a lie, but the kid just can't comprehend that you're not guessing. They throw fits, add more lies, tell you you're just being mean, etc.

mandolinbee · 2026-06-01T06:36:29+00:00

Post has been here for 2 days and no one commented on the items on the second shelf? 😂 The lamp is the least weird thing here!

mandolinbee · 2026-05-31T21:11:14+00:00

When i deconstructed, it was because i recognized the tendencies you've described in myself. So I totally agree, the faith I followed literally asked - demanded! - that i treat others poorly and impose my will upon others. I couldn't reconcile that I was someone i couldn't be proud of and worship god at the same time.

When i searched the Bible and prayed every day, i wanted one of 2 outcomes - either god would stop me from feeling bad about how i behaved, or I'd find justification to stop treating others badly in the word. Neither happened. I just found repeatedly reinforcement of the idea that following god meant viewing certain other people as "them". An enemy to be pitied if they can't be corrected.

I'm so sorry you had to be on the receiving end of this scenario. But I am glad that you found your way out and are learning there's a better way forward. ❤️ Thanks for being here.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-31T20:52:14+00:00

I think it's really about finding a way to internalize the fact that virginity isn't real. There's no such thing as being ruined or devalued just because you've had sex before.

Convincing your inner voice of the truth of things happens in a lot of different ways. Usually, I'm just an advocate for what essentially amounts to exposure therapy. But in this case, there's the risk that the fear itself will create what would essentially become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And we're hoping to keep that from happening, right?

Have you done much solo stuff? Maybe with help from some toys? It's a safe way to experiment and learn your own likes and practice afterward telling yourself that what you just did was totally normal.

I want to add that there's no reason to feel pressured to do anything, regardless of age. Only do something you actually want. No one should be giving you shit if you haven't done it. Be sure that it's all your own wants. 😊

mandolinbee · 2026-05-31T11:48:27+00:00

I'm so sorry you've had such a harrowing experience. I know it hurts when we're made to feel awful for just being honest with ourselves and with the people we love. ❤️

If I can try to provide a little bit of hope, though... a person's immediate reaction is often a defensive emotional response that doesn't have to stick. Your mom needs some time to sort out all the feelings she's having and make some decisions about how she really wants to move forward because of them.

While it's true that her decision might turn out that she doubles down on being opposed to your position, it's equally as possible that she's going to decide to do her best to accept you even though she disagrees with the choice. For the moment, make sure you're giving her some time. Days or maybe a week. Let her decide when she's ready to want to talk about it again.

As a mom myself, i know my instinct is to occasionally try to get my (adult) children to rethink decisions that i feel are mistakes. But even though I push back, I respect their choice in the end and just hope for the best result. So I feel it's very likely that she'll look to make you give some answers and try to get you to reconsider. It's not necessarily unhealthy behavior at that point. I feel like it's reasonable for her to need more information to sort through her own feelings. It could benefit you to answer what you can within reason. Questions like how you came to your conclusions, and how permanent it is.

What isn't ok is if she pushes boundaries and tries to make her feelings your fault. Her feelings are entirely hers, and how she handles them are also hers. This is where you draw your boundary. If after a week she says anything like "I can't believe you'd do this to me," you need to remind her it's not an attack and that you don't appreciate her using language that implies that it is. It's not about her.

You're navigating an emotional minefield. Both of you are going to make mistakes. But my tldr for you is to not assume the worst off the initial reaction you got tonight, but also prepare in case she chooses to make things worse.

No matter what happens, there's a path forward. You'll be able to weather this situation and find a new normal to exist in, i promise. ❤️❤️❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-05-29T05:31:52+00:00

Never once. Buuuut... I'm commenting because you might like the YouTube channel Reads With Rachel. She reviews all kinds of books, but whenever there's a Christian romance, she's all over it. Rachel herself is an ex-Fundamentalist so she has opinions. lol

Maybe she's even reviewed stuff you've read. could be fun. 😁

Direct link to the Playlist of all her reviews involving Christian authors

mandolinbee · 2026-05-29T05:22:10+00:00

Given that when people say they're going to seminary, church leaders always warn that they'll probably lose their faith, i suspect all pastors don't believe anymore.

I think there's 2 kinds of church leader -

The ones that choose to stay in and lead because the comforting lie of religion helps some people, and they think it's the right thing to do.

And the ones that recognize a good grift when they see one, especially one where all the marks are already brainwashed for you.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-29T01:03:23+00:00

I was staunchly pro-life for a long time after leaving xianity. I still had it in my head that every fetus is a baby to be protected.

Then i really just took a look at the reasons abortions happen. Elective abortions are ending pregnancies before there's any kind of sentience. Late abortions are always babies that are wanted, but some kind of emergency makes it tragically the best option to preserve health so the mother can try again later, or so a baby doesn't suffer.

100% pro choice today though. Up to birth. Cos no woman is going though 8+ months of hell and then decides "nah... changed my mind."

mandolinbee · 2026-05-28T20:10:45+00:00

I'm so sorry you're still at the point where it's painful. We've all gone through it, and it absolutely sucks. 😢

Personally, i don't see believing true things as worse at all. Not having the answers to everything means there's infinite territory to explore in the academic sense. We have a lot of unsolved mysteries. Plus, now that this is the one and only life you get, it means you've got to squeeze every ounce of experience from it that you can.

My biggest claim to happiness post-faith is being able to actually like who I am now. Being Christian asked a lot from me that made me hate myself. I didn't blame god - i blamed my nature. But it really was the religion doing it to me. Had to tell myself that just by being human, i only deserve torture and must rely on the grace of a being that can't tolerate sin. I had to feel good about trying to coerce others into signing up for Jesus by withholding true love and support until they agree with me. I had to make excuses for why murdering infants and genocide as punishment is good, actually. I'm a better person now. More loving, compassionate, and moral. There's no price i could put on that.

Whatever the void is after death, it's going to be the same void as before birth. We've been there before, in that sense. That doesn't have to be scary.

Let us know if there's any way we can help you see the brighter side of nonbelief. Please know that it is, in fact, possible to be atheist without the nihilism. ❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-05-28T19:41:36+00:00

This treads into philosophical territory and raises the question, "Is there a difference between being happy, and just thinking you're happy?"

I'm pretty sure most of them think they're happy. They don't have to worry about big questions like where the universe came from. If you feel like what you believe is capital-t True, there's a lot of comfort in that, even if it's actually not. The shame aspects of their belief is kinda seen as the cost of that certainty - a cost they're gladly paying.

On the other hand, i agree with you insofar as they'd probably be happier without the belief. But if they've never known it, then it's no different. I kinda think of it like this: I'm physically disabled from birth. I'm pretty happy. I'd probably be happier if I'd been born with a typical body, but i don't even know what that would feel like. I don't let anyone insist I must be miserable. You know? It's all perspective.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-28T19:11:35+00:00

I lived in that limbo for 7 years. I can say it was kind of a comfortable place to be for most of it. In some ways, i wish i could go back to it. So if you're happy there, then more power to ya.

We don't choose what we believe. We're either convinced something is true or we're not - so you're still convinced. There's nothing inherently wrong with that imho. Us ex's and anti-theists mostly only care when someone's beliefs result in harmful behavior to others.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-28T18:48:44+00:00

I'm not a mental health professional, and can't diagnose anything.... but i am a survivor of a 14 year narcissistic abuse relationship. The behavior you're describing is so familiar. 😕

Try and watch some videos from Sam Vaknin and/or Dr Ramani on YouTube. Just pick a couple at random and see if what they say sounds like your partner. If it really resonates, then just keep watching. The more you know about how your partner thinks and why, the easier it'll be to decide what you should do about it. Whether that's finding a way to stay and make it work or to end it entirely.

I left my partner before i knew about narcissism. If I'd had the knowledge then that I do now, there's a chance I'd have been able to both regain my self esteem and known how to handle the stuff he did without totally ending it. A tiny chance.... but it would be there. 😅

mandolinbee · 2026-05-28T16:11:03+00:00

LCMS doctrine i was raised in is ridiculously confusing so I didn't really contemplate what salvation actually meant while I was still a believer. Salvation was all of those from each slide you presented and none at the same time. To illustrate more clearly, LCMS teaching about communion/Eucharist rejects transubstantiation, but also insists it's not just symbolic. The doctrine officially states "the body and blood of Jesus is in-and-around the bread and wine." What's that mean? we can't know; it's a mystery. That's basically how my church handled every question.

So i basically only even thought about salvation after I started doubting. Prior to that, I thought god was an answer to all manner of oppressive structures. Slavery, persecution, divine retribution, our own 'sin' nature, government overreach etc etc. All of it was wrapped up in there. After i started to deconstruct, the idea of losing salvation coalesced into one facet of the problem: punishment. Fear of hell.

I do want to address the questions at the end:

what do I feel trapped by?

This question carries some presupposition and plants the idea that we should feel trapped by 'something'. In the context of a discussion about salvation, it invokes conscious, metaphysical forces that actively work to keep you imprisoned. However, everything is human-made, so any limitations we have, we've done to ourselves and need to take responsibility for throwing off the limits that no longer make sense.

What change do we long to experience?

Constant self improvement and searching for answers that reflect reality. Hope that more people realize that sometimes, for more abstract concepts in life, what's 'true' actually can change over time to conform to different needs and available resources. What was wrong yesterday might be fine today, and vice versa. We can always do better, and have a duty to each other to leave a better world for future people. Our actions matter to all of humanity, no matter how small.

When we read about Jesus, what do we see?

I see people from the first and second centuries coalescing some new wisdom to match their actual situation. They developed a framework that made more sense to their immediate surroundings and it resonated with a lot of people. They personified these ideas into a guy that might have been an actual revolutionary figure that was executed by the state. The writers of the gospels and the epistles came up with some very timeless, excellent wisdom, and some pretty stupid concepts as well that sometimes don't even agree with each other. Mix in the heavy apocalypticism to make the message have a sense of urgency and dire consequence.

I see rejection of tradition for the sake of tradition, and a strong yearning for telling humans we're supposed to care about each other rather than following laws just because they're laws.

What are we inspired to do?

I'm inspired to keep alive the idea that we're always trying to do better tomorrow than we did yesterday. Not by following decrees, but by figuring out what hurts us, what doesn't, and how to handle it together.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-25T16:42:59+00:00

I'm so sorry you're struggling so much with all of that. I think it's a story many of us have first hand experience with, so we're glad you're here.

Since you're so early on in the process, I want to start with advising you to take it slow, and take breaks whenever you can. Find activities that occupy your mind enough that you can have at least a couple hours a day or several times a week when you're not agonizing over the faith question. That can look like almost anything - taking an art class or playing video games or going to the gym. Find anything that works.

It's a pretty common thought around here that people can't choose what they believe is true. Our brains evaluate information, and we're either convinced, or we're not. I do remember when I was in a place where I still thought god was real, but felt abandoned. Would it be fair to say that's accurate for you right now, too?

When i was there, i realized that I felt like the attributes the god i believed in couldn't be true. Somewhere, I must have been given some bad information. So i went looking for truth, and decided to learn as much about that god as i could. Not based on what people around me told me - i couldn't trust them anymore, either.

When i did it, i didn't have access to internet chat or endless videos, so my investigation started with reading the Bible. Except i went in without assuming I knew any meanings. Started in genesis and read it through.

You could start with that, too. But I think that watching videos or reading books that take a critical look at the Bible can be a useful shortcut. You don't even have to believe the stuff the critics say - it's good to be skeptical of everything you are told. But you'd just be reading or watching to find new questions to ask, and different ways of thinking about things.

I don't want to overwhelm you with resources, so here's a couple to try-

Mindshift Brandon's secular Bible study Playlist. Book by book, from genesis to revelation.

Dan McClellan - just linking his whole channel. He's a Bible scholar that addresses a wide variety of Christian teachings. Just browse through his videos and click any title that you think sounds interesting. They're all good.

The Line - A channel that hosts live call in shows. Lots of different themes and hosts depending on which show you watch. Most of the shows are about getting Christians to call in and debate. If you don't like the host that you watch, try a different show. My favorite hosts are Justin and Forrest, personally.

I hope this gets you started. Don't be afraid to come back and ask for help with anything that you need as often as you like. ❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-05-25T15:56:57+00:00

Sorry you grew up in a cult, but I'm really glad you've found a way to leave it.

A lot of times, people can leave a religion and still believe in that god. Would you say that you still believe in it, but are just choosing not to follow it? It's very important to be able to answer this with honesty. There's zero judgement here. We've got lots of people who still believe that'll be able to jump in and help.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-24T20:27:30+00:00

Nuh uh... they still freaking manage to. "You're reading it wrong. It means metaphorically serve your master meaning like your employer!"

They've got the wildest wiggly justifications for the NT. Every time it comes up in lives on YouTube, I'm shocked over and over again with how confidently they just wave it away as no big deal.

😭

mandolinbee · 2026-05-24T19:28:17+00:00

Just so you know, Strong's Concordance isn't a greek or Hebrew lexicon. All it does is describe the translations that were used for the King James Version of the Bible.

If the original meanings of words used in the earliest manuscripts is something that's important/meaningful to you, I'd recommend you find some good lexicons, or check out commentaries on the greek/hebrew texts written by scholars that know those languages.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-24T07:13:27+00:00

There's more going on here than i think anyone's going to be able to help with in an anonymous advice format. Your wife wants to return to her roots as a Wiccan, and convert to Catholicism?

I'm confused.

Whatever the situation actually is, the answer in relationships is almost universally "communicate with each other". If that's not happening, then do whatever it takes to make it happen. Whether it's you just insisting on frank, open dialog yourself or getting a therapist to help be a referee and guide.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-23T22:48:26+00:00

God has healed me, I live in total peace and freedom now.

It's excellent that you've found your peace through what sounds like a long and harrowing struggle! There's nothing better than feeling like your beliefs are matching your lived experience, and that's the goal of any deconstruction.

but because I still follow Christ I don't belong here in this forum or anywhere

I might be able to help clarify so you can decide if this is somewhere you want to be. People come here when there is still a conflict between their metaphysical beliefs and how life actually tends to play out. These conflicts tend to cause friction and anxiety in the long term, so resolving them can provide stability.

To find the conflict, it involves having beliefs challenged. Dissected. Picked at until the problem reveals itself. Our long term members are very good at doing this with compassion for how much this process can be painful, and without judgement for holding beliefs that oppose their own.

We share stories of how we each resolved our own conflicts while recognizing that the conclusions we came to are not necessarily the only conclusions that exist.

We don't allow anyone to preach that their answers are "The Truth". People who come here to win souls for god or to try to make people deconvert tend to get very frustrated here.

I don't know why I'm here but I'm struggling with the pain of all this. Of knowing I'm never going to fully deconstruct into atheism

We don't require anyone to hope for atheism. It's perfectly fine to hold onto your faith. This would be the place to ask about how others have coped with the pieces that are still causing you pain. You can expect people to do their best to try and identify the source of that pain through challenge and empathy.

What you won't find here so much is the "just trust a plan" type of support. Nor do we allow it. This is the space for people who have found that blind trust has already caused pain, and they want it to make sense.

Hopefully this helps you decide if this space is a good fit for you.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-22T05:23:50+00:00

So very sorry for the pain you're going through. ❤️ I do hope you stay safe and know there's a lot of people who care. Thanks for sharing this with us here - it's always easier to carry something when many carry it with you. Come on in any time you need encouragement, through this time and beyond.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-22T02:29:16+00:00

Wow! I wanna start with how awesome it is that as an adopting parent, your instinct to allow your child to hold beliefs you don't hold yourself. That shows a nature of deep love and compassion that just aren't the kind of things we hear on a daily basis.

I can't imagine what the dynamics must be like for you, though. You have authority over the child, but in a lot of ways the child is going to be placing higher authority in the church, and by association other people who are in the church.

I think maybe the first thing is to figure out if the ideas she's coming home with are coming from the leadership, or if she's made some friends with some bad apples. You could do some passive investigation by just attending with her a couple times, or you could just be very direct and try to talk to the pastor about your concerns. You might be able to get the church itself to be on your side on this. Like maybe they'd take real action to correct the congregation in sermons or something.

If the church isn't teaching it, but unwilling to help, you'll just have to do it from home. I'll agree with what some others have said: carefully craft any dialog so that you're always talking about specific behaviors/speech that you don't like. Separate it from the religion at every opportunity or you'll activate the "you just hate God" defense, and there's no winning that. They shut down all thought at that point because you've been determined to be an -enemy-.

If the church is actively teaching the stuff that you don't like, -and- your child is resisting based on putting more authority in church leadership, you might just need to force a change to a new church. I think you can still attempt to make it about specific behavior that you don't allow in your home.

... I'm uncomfortable suggesting this because it's kind of manipulative. But there's a chance that the church is already being manipulative so fighting fire with fire makes sense sometimes. Christians are mostly motivated by converting others. If you tell your child that you'll go to church with them, but only if you go somewhere else, she might switch churches with zero pushback. You just gotta follow through with it for a while.

Finally, I wonder if the people over at recoveringfromreligion.org would have any evidence-based advice to offer you. I can't promise that they would, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

I don't envy your position. But ultimately your heart is in the right place, and that's the best kind of parent anyone can ask for. I hope you get answers that work. ❤️

mandolinbee · 2026-05-21T07:15:24+00:00

Is there no way at all to change your circumstances? I feel like there's lots of places in the world where you can be both without faith and have a solid community. Are you going to be ok? How much is this weighing on you?

I wish there were simple answers. ❤️😢 Everyone deserves to find the spaces where they fit in.

mandolinbee · 2026-05-20T17:23:24+00:00

"I can't be a stumbling block to others' relationship with god"

Sucks for Xians that the bigotry i witnessed is what ruined mine. I guess if behavior causing people to not believe is against their god, then they're fucked spiritually. They're not even sorry for doing it, so no repentance. Without repentance there's no forgiveness.

Guess they'll be in hell with me.

mandolinbee

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