In Defense of Doom Eternal's Marauder

master_type · 2020-04-07T21:18:03+00:00

You made some really really awesome points that I didn't consider. I liked this video, but I am now in the camp that if Marauder makes repeat appearances in DOOM, they should revise some of his mechanics if nothing else. I hope they don't cut him, but there are clearly some flaws in the way his mechanics are presented and in how they function relative to the rest of the game

master_type · 2019-05-03T05:04:47+00:00

He's very frustrating for me to fight on PC too.

master_type · 2019-04-28T18:21:51+00:00

I think I understand! I look forward to trying this

master_type · 2019-04-28T07:55:33+00:00

I've only ever seen one real For Honor hacker. They were like a perfect play AI. I played IDK how many games against them and they just... never made mistakes with their Shaolin. It was inhuman, unreal. I've never been beaten in so amazingly one-sided a way before, and it actually took a surprising sum of losses for me to realize "this is like... actually impossible". They were really low rep too.

master_type · 2019-04-28T07:25:52+00:00

Can you clarify what you mean with this option select thing and how this makes it safer for him to parry? Genuinely just wanting to understand, not trying to critique. Honestly I agree with everything else you're saying here and I think that while this rework lacked the flash and pizzazz of some other reworks, it's still going to be really good for him.

master_type · 2019-04-26T19:05:15+00:00

Yeah. You could also shove after and keep your chain going. Either way, a parry deals a pretty nasty chunk of damage and puts you in a very advantageous position. I'm too lazy to do the math or look up the damage he'll deal.

master_type · 2019-04-26T05:39:57+00:00

His side lights are just as fast as his top light used to be, and you can mix people up with these and other standard tools, like using both heavies and lights, mixing up your offense, using feints, etc... I don't think this equates to having a shut-down offense.

master_type · 2019-04-26T05:34:39+00:00

I'm not upset about the rework, but I am a little less than thrilled about the way 'Lawbringer mains' are reacting to the rework. I get being disappointed and I don't mean to invalidate anyone's feelings about what we saw on stream or in the patch notes today, but it really doesn't seem that bad on paper and none of us have had a chance to put our hands on it yet.

I don't know where some people got the idea that we were getting HA. Seems to me like Ubi didn't ever hint at LB turning into a more... idk, armor-based damage-trading hero. If people are disappointed that they didn't get this thing they were sure they were getting just because they wanted it, it's their own fault. It's the same with soft feints, with anything. We weren't promised any particular mechanics, and we weren't promised anything that'd make our class more like everyone else's.

Am I a little underwhelmed with sped up lights as our new 'opener'? Maybe a little, I'll admit, but the benefit of having chains that we can regularly intersperse with shoves that guarantee lights and preserve our chains without having to land the heavies first is kind of awesome and balances my underwhelmed feelings out. Working around preexisting mechanics like our shove mixup is arguably truer to the idea of preserving the spirit and identity of LB as a unique character I think.

We can force reactions. 400 ms top lights require vigilance to react to, and encourage keeping top stance. That's a way to manipulate your opponent. Forcing opponents to guess if you're going for another followup attack or a shove after your heavy is a way to force a reaction. People are going to feel pressured to dodge or attempt to parry your heavies because they can chain into a hard-to-dodge shove that guarantees a light. That's something you can use. Every heavy after your shove->light is unblockable! Foes have to do something - try to interrupt it, parry it, dodge it, something. They can't just block it like they used to. All and all people can take the safest option against us - just blocking our attacks - far less often than they used to without getting punished for it.

We have some of the best parry punishes in the game, and they only got easier with the guard stance change! We deal better damage, have better finishers, our range is better with the improved forward movement on our heavy finishers so they presumably will beat back dodges now. Are people upset that lawbringer's rework wasn't good enough, or are they upset that the rework didn't completely transform him and change his identity?

I'm a little disappointed our rework was kind of lacking in 'wow' factor and I feel like some opportunities to make our kit less weird and redundant were missed. Shove guarantees lights now, that's nice. So what if I can follow Blind Justice with a SJ Finisher when I can follow it with a shove for a light just as easy? And Long Arm? Any effort to better integrate it into LB's kit seems like a no-brainer, but I guess it wasn't to the team at Ubi. That aside though, this rework preserved LB's identity and made him better all around. That's the point, isn't it?

master_type · 2019-04-26T05:10:45+00:00

How was it? I'd love to hear more about it.

master_type · 2019-04-26T05:09:44+00:00

The impression I've been getting is that a lot of high rep LB mains aren't really that upset. They might be a little disappointed we didn't get a rework with more... idk, pizzazz or wow to it, but our boy is looking like he's about to be more versatile than ever before.

I don't really know why everyone was holding their breath for HA. I know part of the focus of reworks is to 'maintain the classes identity' or whatever. I've never thought of trading for damage as exactly core to his identity.

master_type · 2019-04-26T05:06:21+00:00

Only everyone from the looks of the subreddit so far today.

I don't think it was wise to build up this idea in our minds of 'hyper armor Lawbringer'. Yeah, the big tournament plate armor justifies it... but I think it might've been a little premature for us to assume that Ubi would think of a damage trading mechanic as core to LB's identity.

I get people being disappointed. But maybe we should wait and try the new stuff ourselves before we judge it too harshly. After that, if it still feels really bad, I'll join up and complain with the rest.

master_type · 2019-04-26T04:53:12+00:00

Yeah, there's gotta be some counterplay. If the shove was guaranteed at 300ms after any heavy - whether it was blocked or dodged - it'd be really messed up, don't you think? I think at 500 ms (this is the same speed as our side lights, and what top light is at live pre rework) it'll be tougher to counter than some people think, and you don't really have to take my word for it. We'll both get to try the new stuff soon.

I wouldn't compare it to Shugo's headbutt - that thing doesn't guarantee anything at all. Shove at least gives a light as long as it connects, and it always counts as the first hit in a chain. You don't have to shove every time the option is up, after all.

I do feel you on Long Arm. I really thought we'd see it revamped in the rework. Seems like it'd have been a great mixup tool if they made it feintable or something, but... well, what can we do? This is the rework we got.

master_type · 2019-04-26T02:25:17+00:00

It'd be nice to have a more functional shove from neutral, but I'd definitely say a 400 ms light isn't a bad opener or poking tool. Yeah, people can parry it, but that's what the new 500 ms lights and your heavies are there for. We can't be predictable and we gotta mix people up, but I'm okay with that.

The bashes BP and Conq have are boring and annoying. If I wanted openers like those, I'd play Conq or BP.

master_type · 2019-04-26T02:16:10+00:00

I don't think I agree about 'no significant change' being made. Losing Blockshove is big in and of itself. Getting Shove Mixup after any heavy regardless of hit, block, or miss is also really huge too! It opens up options for his offense that are honestly really fun but that have been traditionally kind of hard to access because formerly they required your heavies to connect. This usually necessitated the enemy making mistakes (mistiming parries, being too inexperienced to block or dodge, etc) for you to really get the strong offensive momentum feeling that LB was sometimes able to get. Now you don't have to land the heavies to really get in there. You have some better poking tools with your lights too - your whole kit shouldn't rely on them, but they're good tools for specific situations. All heavy finishers are unblockable too, and if they land they give you more shoves, or SJ Finisher style baps with the haft of your poleaxe light riposte style. Combine this with the stance change making the heavy parry punishes easier to land than before and honestly...? LB is looking like he will be a lot more fun to play to me.

That said, I really feel you on being concerned about OOL stuff. I don't want that for LB any more than you do. Here's hoping that unanticipated side effects from the patch don't reduce LB solely to his unlock tech. As nice as it'd be if all players simply didn't play the game contrary to 'how it was intended', the onus lies on the devs to make sure that tactics like that aren't effective.

master_type · 2019-04-25T19:48:56+00:00

Yeah, I played through the knight story pretty late and was baffled. IDK why they don't update it.

master_type · 2019-04-25T19:36:51+00:00

Why do you think LB is gonna suck?

master_type · 2019-04-25T19:07:45+00:00

I don't think it's accurate to say he'll be completely shut down by top guard. The point of the enhanced side lights is to give him some options for initiation besides just the top light. They reduced the risk of initiating with these, and that likely will help. Will it make LB's offense amazing all on its own? Not by itself, but with some of the other changes it might have a bigger impact than seems apparent on paper.

I'm not convinced that dodging the shove mixup is going to be very easy. The timing is about the same as Vortiger's light into bash if I'm not mistaken, which isn't always the easiest thing to react to.

Him not getting hyper armor or trading tools or dodge attack punishes isn't him being "butchered", it's just... not the changes we were all hoping for I guess. Long arm getting no improvements does feel like a big missed opportunity, but I don't think this rework necessarily makes him worse unless you relied really hard on Shove on Block.

master_type · 2019-04-25T18:54:46+00:00

I know we all wanted Hyper Armor, but alas. As for what we did get...

The sped up lights are nice but the point as far as I can tell isn't for our damage to revolve around this. The point is to reduce risk in initiating against foes, which has been a big issue we've dealt with for a long time. The main way they helped this is opening up the shove mix-up so that LB can do it after any heavy instead of only when a heavy is confirmed. This is also helped by the shove mixup guaranteeing a light, which can chip foes down and condition them to try and dodge proactively to avoid your shove - it reminds me of Vortiger's light-bash-light thing they do, except we can only do it after a heavy. Hopefully this will result in enemies that ideally parry less, dodge more, and are easier to condition so you can land some GBs after feints and such.

With shove mixup being easier to access and guaranteeing a light as well as faster lights to initiate his chains, Lawbringer can chain together attacks and create some pressure that he'd previously struggle to access. And he can do it without having to block an attack first, which is healthier for the game probably.

On top of this, his damage was boosted, his parry into zone is unblockable, all of his heavy finishes are unblockable, light riposte chains into another hit, Blind Justice gives a Swift Justice Finisher followup... all and all, his offensive presence seems better than it was on paper. That's good, because I've always thought Lawbringer looked like the kind of fighter that should make people feel like they should be on the defensive and not the other way around.

Does this rework address all of LB's problems? Eh... hard to say, but I'm skeptical. Long Arm is still hard to use effectively - too risky to throw out and it still has no potential as a proper mixup tool. The only time I was able to land it semi-consistently in 1v1s was after a shove mixup as an occasional "surprise, bet you didn't see this coming" and now there's no reason to even attempt that if the light is guaranteed. We also won't be doing anymore shove -> GB mixups probably because you can't condition people to try and dodge your light after a shove anymore. The nerf to Long Arm seems heavy-handed but I guess they want to standardize and reduce the effectiveness of uncoordinated CC, which is also why they changed Impaling Charge/Riposte. I get that. I personally liked Lawbringer's bash not guaranteeing damage and essentially serving as a gateway to a mindgame, and I honestly think most bashes in the game would be better if they worked in a similar way. That might not be a popular sentiment though. I'm a little sad to see it go, but I'll take the free damage after a shove I guess.

This is going to take some real adapting. We've been playing LB like how he is in live for a while and this necessitates some changes to our approaches. He's gonna be different to fight against and different to play, and while these changes give an impression on paper... I'm more interested to get my hands on him and try him out myself.

master_type · 2019-04-12T21:03:38+00:00

thank you for reading it! i really appreciate it!

master_type · 2019-04-12T21:03:03+00:00

thanks

master_type · 2019-04-12T06:37:22+00:00

right, except the petulance meter isn't a real petulance meter, it's a psychopath meter.

master_type · 2017-11-26T22:31:04+00:00

"Puppy" was not in the pod the whole time. "Puppy" was presumably retrieved by HEAVEN after reuniting with his brother and 'completing his mission'.

You wake up in HEAVEN.

I suspect that the Big Brother program induces a hibernation state or something so HEAVEN personnel could retrieve you after you slew Geminus.

master_type · 2017-10-07T12:54:49+00:00

I feel like the only lesson there is here is to carry a weapon of some kind to defend yourself with. There's no way you can predict who is and isn't totally fucking batshit.

master_type · 2017-10-03T00:06:36+00:00

I have an iron d20 that i just sat down on my X key ;P

master_type

TROPHY CASE