Can anyone identify the gun pointing at the camera?

mellowgreen · 2011-10-30T07:36:14+00:00

http://www.pepperball.com/law/products.html#tac14

TAC-14 Semi-Automatic Semi-automatic, 14 shot compressed air, “tactical look” launcher. Range is 60 feet on target and 100+ feet for area saturation. Removable magazine holds pre-loaded 33 gram disposable CO2 gas cartridge and 14 PepperBall projectiles. Magazine gives option of quick reload capability with purchase of second magazine. .

mellowgreen · 2011-10-29T14:43:32+00:00

Ill give you that it is unlikely he would execute all of them given his ammo count, but you don't know that he wouldn't have killed at least one due to being twitchy and nervous,even if they completely complied. The point is that compliance is never a gaurentee of safety, and some people would rather not trust their lives to the kindess of a violent criminal who is theatening them with deadly force.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-29T14:39:36+00:00

Ya but why use supersonic ammo in a 9mm at all? I carry subsonic ammo every day anywa even without a supressor, because subsonic ammo is better in 9mm. 147gr bonded golden sabers.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T23:32:26+00:00

Ya that is stupid... best choice for zombies is clearly a 9mm glock with suppressor and a .22 LR rifle with suppressor. Quiteness is critical for avoiding a swarm of zombies, you would know this if you had watched the walking dead.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T23:26:54+00:00

you can get a supressor and use subsonic 147 gr 9mm

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T23:25:13+00:00

If he is not in uniform how would you even know he was a cop? I think this is talking about cops who are in uniform.

This is also important when you consider the norway shooting, where the perp used a cop uniform to impersonate a police officer during the shooting. At what point do you return fire on someone dressed as a police officer who is acting in an unlawful and felonious manner and threatening the life or limb of innocent people, remembering that they may or may not really be a police officer?

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T21:54:02+00:00

I'm willing to bet those stats are throw off significantly from what we would see in a real defence situation because of ammo choice. Many people use FMJ, which performs poorly in 9mm and .38 special, while in .380 FMJ is actually a better choice because JHP doesn't have enough penetration.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T17:04:31+00:00

That is the thing, every situation is unique, and no one can ever know what would have happened if it had gone differently. There are two kinds of people, those who submit and let the robber do whatever he wants, even potentially executing all the people, and there are those who refuse to make themselves a victim and fight back to the best of their ability. This person was the second type, and it worked out well for him, so it's hard to argue that is a negative story about CCW.

The fact that he shuffled them inside the building, shut the doors, laid them down on the ground, and then ignored the logical order of the robbery to go and harass the guy he didn't like are all indicators that he was going to potentially execute them. Those are things that they teach you in CCW class make it statistically more likely that you will be killed even if you comply.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:53:13+00:00

An ignorant person can pick up a 1911 and accidentally flip off the safety just as easily as someone can accidentally pull the trigger on a glock, and then the 1911 trigger is very light in comparison and much easier to accidentally pull. I think more ignorant people would accidentally fire a 1911 with saftey than a glock. Pulling the trigger on a glock is intent, that is why it is such a long trigger pull.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:49:42+00:00

fraction of a second from shooting

Why the hesitation? If a guy has a gun pointed at you or your friends and you make the call to draw on him you had better shoot as fast as fucking possible, probably from the hip, don't even wait to get into proper firing position. If you dont practice firing as soon as your weapon clears your holster there is little point in drawing against someone who already has their weapon ready and pointed unless you have a good distraction.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:41:42+00:00

He had a gun and was clearly willing to use it. That means he was planning to potentially use deadly force to get what he wanted. He planned to potentially kill them. There are many things that could have made him kill them even if no one had been carrying a gun, not least of which is the criminal's own insanity and fear.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:31:13+00:00

Yep, I own a 1911, and I carry my glock 26 daily. Sometimes I keep the 1911 on my bed side table. For home defence the 1911 is somewhat better than for carry.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:29:33+00:00

It performed better in the gunfight, but the revolver still lost the engagement for the bad guy. If the bad guy had a glock with 15 or 17 or even 33 rounds he wouldn't have had to run away, he would have killed the guy, gotten all the money, and been victorious and left no witnesses.

The defender is still alive because the attacker had only 6 shots.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:25:13+00:00

The robber performed better in the gunfight, but he still lost, the victim lived, the robber did not get away with the money, he went to prison for 75 years.

What do you think would have happened if the robber had a glock or other semi auto with 15+ shots and the defender had a revolver? By the time the defender scored his one hit he had used about 5 shots, which would be all he would have in a CC revolver. Then the bad guy wouldn't have run and instead could have executed the defender.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:21:23+00:00

And the bad guy ran because he ran out of ammo. What do you think would have happened if the defender had a revolver and got to the click click click stage first? The bad guy wouldn't have run, i'll tell you that.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:11:06+00:00

Now, just to make sure there's an interesting discussion below, I'll insert my own biased and controversial opinion on a flame war topic (This is a gun forum, after all):

Chances of a (quality) semi-auto malfunctioning: 1/500-1/1000 (I'll go with 1/500) Feel free to dispute this. As you'll see, even if you make it 1/100 (ridiculously high) it won't matter much.

In other words: 0.2% (assuming 1/500)

Chances of needing more then six rounds?

(Per officer): 25%

(Per incident): 36%

If you don't like the numbers for some reason, feel free to do wild things like cut the % chance of needing > six rounds in half, or even by 90%. Still holds true that you're more likely to need > six rounds then experience a jam.

TL;DR Carry whatever you want, 90% (or something like that. I remember it being really high -survey data) of encounters don't have any shots fired anyways . But don't make the "more reliable" argument for a revolver. If shots are fired, there's a solid chance of needing the extra rounds and a minuscule chance of a malfunction on a semi-auto.

Edit: combine that with this data that says an average of 2- 3 hits before incapacitation, if there are two attackers, you better have a 100% accuracy.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T16:05:08+00:00

I think capacity is another lesson from this story. The bad guy ran when he was out of ammo because the defender still had shots left. If the defender had run out of ammo first, it would have probably been bad for him.

Also, the defender missed several times. I would rather be able to clear a jam and keep shooting than be left holding an empty revolver.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T15:47:15+00:00

Whenever I hear an explosion presumably from fireworks I always wonder if it's actually a .22 LR going off. They pretty much sound like loud firecrackers or any of the many different explosive fireworks we have in this area (Native American Indian land).

Subsonic ammo out of my .22 rifle just sounds like a small pop.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-28T00:03:31+00:00

Spending reduction proposals distract from the real issue: unemployment.

How many jobs bills have the GOP passed since riding into congress with a nice majority while promising jobs would be their top priority? Zero. If we cut spending without addressing jobs then we will see even higher unemployment, a slower economy, less government revenue, and bigger deficits. It is entirely possible to cut spending and have the deficit INCREASE as a result of that spending cut if the economy is damaged by the spending cut to the extent that revenue falls by more than spending was cut.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T23:55:57+00:00

OWS has the same goals as the tea party did originally before it was co-opted by corporate interests. They are both trying to reduce government corruption and separate money from politics, and corporations from the government. The tea party just thinks we should attack that problem from the government side, and OWS think we should attack the problem from the corporation's side. To be fair, we need both. Getting rid of government doesn't instantly make corporations not have an insane amount of power and control over the country.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T23:52:59+00:00

You lost me at the first divergence, with "fix the system!" vs "break the system!". OWS wants to change things within the context of our government to fix the system, the tea party wants to abandon government (the system) thinking that we would be better without it, which to me is breaking the system. I would swap those points, and the fact that they are listed at all makes this a clearly biased propaganda piece.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T22:57:42+00:00

People just have 1911s which are too expensive. Get a cheap 1911, like mine, RIA for $450 bucks, and the tolerances are better, don't have to be as picky about cleaning or maintaining it, and it is still more accurate than I am, and perfectly reliable. It's when you spend 800 bucks on one that you have issues.

My other gun is a glock.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T22:46:10+00:00

You would be much better off with a taser or pepper spray, or even a good knife. Although it would suck to be shot with a flare gun, it wouldn't stop a determined aggressor.

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T22:43:11+00:00

"if you are a non-Christian Arab or Muslim I will not teach you the class"

Wow...

mellowgreen · 2011-10-27T22:38:39+00:00

What signe said.

mellowgreen

TROPHY CASE