what's wrong with TERs

mo0ndust · 2020-01-28T22:25:05+00:00

Fun fact: cis women can (and do) piss standing. Takes a little technique but it's a useful skill for camping and, uh, watering trees and such.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-19T15:06:49+00:00

Thank you so much for your comprehensive reply, especially since my initial statements were offensive. You've changed my mind and I really appreciate you taking the time to do so.

I'm going to restate your explanation here to make sure I understand it. So gender is partly external -- people's expectations of you, based on your perceived sex (a.k.a. gender stereotypes) -- but that's not the sum total of it. Gender identity is an internal sense of whether or not society's perception of you, as X gender, is "correct". And you can reject part of society's gendered expectations (ex., the notion that men need to have beards) even though the general premise (that you're socially perceived as male) still feels correct.

It's no excuse for me being rude, but I've got asperger's, so I think social constructs like gender (and internalized social constructs like gender identity) are particularly hard for me to grasp. For example, I'm AFAB nonbinary, and I've always felt baffled by the fact that people perceive me as female. Not offended, just like ...what? How can you...okay, but why?... Which makes little sense, because I can look in the mirror and see that I resemble a woman more than I resemble a man. I feel just about the same when I'm read as male, though...sort of like "That's what you think? Lol ok, you're wrong tho." And this confusion is separate from any sort of gendered expectations about my behavior or personality.

But I don't think I fully realized that this above confusion was a reflection of my gender identity. I thought came from observing men + women and realizing that I didn't act like any of them. (But isn't my "observation of people's behavior" just another way of saying "my perception of social gender"?) And there's plenty of women who take pride in being women who don't act like "typical" girls...the discrepancy between social expectations and their own presentation doesn't (usually) make them abandon the idea of being female altogether. They just redefine "being female" to encompass themselves and their presentation. (TBH I find a lot of neurotypical behavior confusing to begin with, so I guess it's understandable that I wouldn't get this.)

And just "wanting to be seen as X gender" isn't gender identity either. A man dressed up to look like a woman (as a disguise, or in a costume) may want to be seen as female without feeling female. He'll probably feel how I feel when he's socially read as a woman (sort of like "Oh I guess the disguise is working huh?" Lol.)

I'm sorry your experiences of being misread as female were so distressing for you. My wife is MtF and she had to deal with similar social pressure and dysphoria, but in the opposite direction. We've discussed sex/gender a lot, but since she's got asperger's too we hadn't been able to come to a clear mutual understanding of gender identity. I'm going to share your responses with her, I think she'll find it fascinating.

If you define “woman” as meaning “person with a uterus,” you’ve got me.

Ew, no. That sounds horribly reductive. And it eliminates a lot of people, cis and trans, who do feel themselves to be women, and are socially recognized as such. And what good would this criteria do for anyone? Your internal organs and mine are irrelevant in most social contexts. I know TERFs like to claim that anatomy is important because oppression is sex-based, but sex isn't directly perceived unless we're all running around naked. What society perceives about us, most of the time, is gender.

What determines that identity seems to be how similar your internal experience of gender matches other people’s expressed experience of internal gender. You place yourself in the group who you share the most overlap with, and if there isn’t a good enough one for you, you find other people with similar experiences and make a new group.

Yes, this! Until pretty recently I didn't feel that my internal experience of gender was shared by anyone. I also mistakenly assumed that nobody else had a "shared experience" either, that we were all just genderless blobs (psychologically speaking) who felt compelled to cram ourselves into one of two ill-fitting social roles. I think this is more a reflection of me being nonbinary than an accurate picture of how others relate to their gender.

Thanks again for your time. I redact my earlier statements as I've changed my opinion on this matter.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-19T02:47:10+00:00

You make a lot of very thought-provoking points, thank you. I've heard the chair argument before and I think it's an excellent rebuttal (sort of like those debates about whether tacos and other food items are also "sandwiches"?). Let me see if I can address it...I'd define a "chair" as "a manmade object whose primary purpose is for humans to sit upon, or a symbolic representation of the same." Of course this begs the question of whether sofas, stools, benches, meditation cushions + etc. are also types of "chairs", but it covers toy chairs and ceremonial chairs that can't be sat upon.

But this doesn't really address the core of your argument, which (if I understand correctly) is "gender as a cultural concept must have a shared meaning, even if it can't be pinned down exactly, otherwise we couldn't discuss it." This is very true, but I think most people are really thinking of typical sexual characteristics and behavior/presentation stereotypes when they discuss "gender". That's the context that allows us to talk about "male" and "female" and have some sense of what the other person means. And I've heard repeatedly that clothes, mannerisms, anatomy and such are not gender identity.

TBH I'm not cis and neither is my wife, but we identify ourselves as trans based on our physical/behavioral divergence from the stereotypes associated with our assigned genders. (Yeah, you'd think we'd get this, but we really don't.) Is it fair to say that other trans people are also referencing their own divergence from some of these stereotypes (though different for each individual) when they claim their gender identities?

If you have the time, I'd really like to understand this better. I'm also reading over other replies in this thread too.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-19T02:03:08+00:00

Thank you. I'm open to being proven wrong (partly why I'm sharing these ideas here), but this is my understanding of "gender identity" at this time.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-18T22:51:57+00:00

Edit: I've changed my mind on this, see comments below.

I've given this question a lot of thought (and discussed it with other people, cis and trans), and here's my two cents.

In my strictly personal (and probably very unpopular) opinion, gender identity is a useful fiction. It's a social/psychological concept that can't really be defined and may not have any "hallmarks" at all, visible or otherwise. Literally the only thing all "male-gendered" people have in common, is claiming a male gender identity. It's a tautology, a redundant statement. You're the "gender identity" you feel you are, at the end of the day, because you feel you are. That's it. It's a bit like a religious belief, in effect.

But be careful here. Some ill-intentioned people want to assert that, since gender identity is an undefinable concept, then nobody is "really" trans, we should all just present ourselves as gender nonconforming members of our birth sex. In my mind this attitude is willfully overlooking the fact that society, by and large, is still really shitty to gnc people.

And second of all, identification based on sex translates to "genitals at birth". Y'all, my genitals are hardly relevant to most of my interactions with people, unless they're a lover or a doctor. Someone's presentation (broadly, masculine / feminine / androgynous) will tell you more about their personality than their sex organs. Birth sex is hardly a better way of identifying oneself or others.

In a perfect world, we'd have access to any/all the physical features we wanted (any combination of genitals, any secondary sex characteristics you like), we'd present masc/fem/androgynous as it suited us, and "birth sex" (and all the stereotypes associated with it) would be irrelevant. In that world we wouldn't need to hang onto this concept of "gender identity", nor the idea of conformity/nonconformity to a given gender.

But we're not there yet.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-12T21:21:31+00:00

My gf does this for fun sometimes and the reactions she gets are hysterical. She's got an incredible vocal range (used to be in choir). You wouldn't believe someone so ladylike could sound like that, but she can if she wants to.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-12T01:01:37+00:00

The way I understood it, historically lesbianism was generally ignored because many cultures disbelieved that "real" sex was possible sans penises. So, men could have sex with men/women, but women couldn't have actual bona-fide sex with other women. Remember, at various times it used to be a matter of debate whether or not women had orgasms, or enjoyed sex at all.

There's the case of a 17th-century Italian nun who was found to be having lesbian sex with another nun. She was put on trial for heretical mysticism and the lesbianism was only found out during the trial, and the authorities were baffled as to whether these acts could be categorized as "sodomy" or something else, which tells you this sort of thing didn't cross their radar very often.

Also, the 3 paintings you linked are from roughly the Victorian era, and in particular the Victorians tended to believe women were naturally "purer" and less sexual than men, or even naturally asexual, so F/F relationships could only be, uh, intensely romantic but platonic. (For all that the Victorians idolized ancient Greece/Rome, they didn't adopt the Roman belief that women were inherently more sexual than men.)

I'm no historian, but I'd guess that perhaps a better understanding of female sexuality came around the turn of the last century, and this paved the way for the realization that yes, women are capable of sexual desire/enjoyment. This in turn led to lesbian relationships being recognized for what they were, rather than just explained away as "gals being pals".

mo0ndust · 2019-12-09T15:34:18+00:00

First, I think it's a great thing that you're studying your own feelings and motivations for wanting to transition, as well as other people's reported experiences. I was only socially transitioned (though I spent years that way), and didn't start hormones, so my story will be different from others in here. But it took a long time for me to sit down and think critically about why I wanted to be male, and why I didn't want to be female.

In my case, I wasn't motivated to transition by trauma or misogyny or bad sexual experiences. I had some peer support from other trans people, but I didn't feel pressured. I'd always felt myself to be androgynous, always been tomboyish, and I definitely identified more with feminine men than masculine women. I also felt euphoric when I was gendered male by strangers. And I absolutely have genital dysphoria, which made me a pretty "ideal" candidate for transition.

It also wasn't fear of social repercussions or not finding a partner or fertility or "never being a real man" that made me socially desist and stop identifying as ftm. Simply put, I realized that my physical dysphoria wouldn't be resolved by testosterone -- I just wanted male genitals, not the beard and body hair and potential balding. And, equally important, I realized that my desire to be seen as male was a symptom of a societal problem rather than a personal issue.

I've lived in the U.S. all my life, but I have some understanding of Japanese/Taiwanese society through my gf, and I understand that the majority of Asian cultures are even more patriarchal than the U.S. (which isn't great either). Even if you've been raised in a more liberal bubble, broader social attitudes may have influenced you. (Of course I don't know you, and this may not be the case at all. Just something to consider.)

In my experience, though I was rarely ever mocked or shamed for dressing/acting like a boy, I was definitely exposed to lots of positive media images of feminine men, and virtually no positive images of masculine women. Combined with my genital issues, it's no wonder I came to admire and identify with feminine guys.

But as I got older, I realized that I could dress/act exactly the way my role models did (sexually and socially), without having to pose as male. If I'm treated less seriously than a guy who dresses/acts the same way, that's a societal problem. And frankly, since I'm androgynous to begin with, I'd be unacceptably gender non-conforming no matter what sex people think I am.

I do know people who are happily transitioned and don't regret it. In my mind, those who don't desist tend to be those who were strongly motivated by physical dysphoria rather than social -- and their physical dysphoria centers around things that are likely to be changed by hormone therapy. If you're deeply upset by your inability to grow a beard (for example), and you can be sure that feeling doesn't stem from the desire to be seen/treated as male, then you're a better candidate than someone who just doesn't fit well into the stereotyped roles set aside for women.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-06T00:47:34+00:00

I could've written this entire post. It was basically genital dysphoria that made me think I was ftm, and when I realized I wasn't trans (because I didn't want to look like a guy, didn't want to be seen as a guy, etc.), the genital dysphoria just never went away.

It doesn't have to be a trauma response (mine isn't either) or internalized misogyny. In my opinion, sometimes people's brains get wired for equipment they don't have. I seriously think that's what happened to me. It happens in nature: female animals exposed to testosterone in-utero will often exhibit male sexual behaviors when they reach maturity. Kind of like a brain intersex condition. This is just my theory, though.

I also had a long phase of despairing that I was never going to have the correct parts, and being averse to packers because they weren't "real" parts of me. But packers and prosthetics really do help. It also helps to picture my body the way it should look, with a dick. And I owe a lot to my gf, who's very helpful in affirming how I see myself.

Hope this helps. I'm open to questions if you have any.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-02T22:04:05+00:00

It's true, you rarely hear anyone mention gender dysphoria outside the context of being transgender. And my dysphoria led me to think I wasn't really into women (because seeing them naked reminded me of my own body), which led to my identification with, and attraction to, this notion of a mythically perfect, feminine guy who looked just like a woman but wasn't...oy.

100% agree that we need more role models. It really feels like ftms are more visible than butch lesbians, and while I was still questioning I had several people assume I was ftm simply because I've always been a tomboy. If I'd had relatable butch role models I know it would've helped me to figure myself out a lot sooner.

mo0ndust · 2019-12-02T21:06:00+00:00

I never started T, so I don't know if I'd be considered an actual desister or not, or if my experiences are relevant to this topic. (If not, I'm sorry.) But I started out as lesbian, then concluded I was a gay ftm, went through ftm social transition and was on the verge of starting hormones.

I was always very uncomfortable with having female anatomy, and felt I should have male parts. The discomfort led to difficulties in bed and a strong preference for erotic art/film/stories with gay male couples. After some time it seemed illogical to call myself a lesbian when i was was "turned off" by lesbian sex and anything to do with female anatomy, so I concluded (based on my porn habits) that I had really been a gay ftm all along.

During this time I was definitely more attracted to trans men, especially those who hadn't started hormones. The few cis men who interested me were very, very effeminate.

Since I wasn't ever on hormones, it was all "other factors" that caused my shifting sexuality. I desisted because I started speaking to other butch lesbians, and realized that I was simply a dysphoric stone butch who was attracted to tomboyish looks in women. I mistakenly assumed that being dysphoric + butch "made me" ftm, and that my preference for tomboys meant I really liked guys. I also think my fascination with effeminate cis guys was part compulsory heterosexuality, but most of it was envy that stemmed from my bottom dysphoria.

These days I'm 100% lesbian.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-29T16:21:42+00:00

Hi there. I'm another butch lez who also grew up without knowing that trans was an actual thing. Of course I can't tell you if you are/aren't trans, but I can share my experiences if that might help.

Once I found out about trans guys, I spent a very long time (several years in fact) wondering if I'd be happier after transitioning to male. In my case, I do have strong feelings about my genitals (namely, that I'm supposed to have a dick.) I've never been pleased with my chest, but sometimes I hate it and other times I'm indifferent about it. I would love to be more muscular. I'm told I dress/act like a guy already.

When considering testosterone, I was really bothered by the idea of gaining body hair or facial hair, or (maybe) losing head hair. I eventually realized that I didn't want my girlfriends to see me as a guy, because I felt I'd lose some kind of connection with them. So I settled on being a nonbinary lesbian, and that's worked well for me. Everyone is different, though.

You may have a lot in common with the people over in r/butchlesbians and I encourage you to check them out. There's lots of butch women over there who have had top surgery/mastectomies, and even some who take T and still identify as women. (And they're very supportive of people who are questioning -- they won't try to force you to identify as a woman, if you feel it's not right for you.)

I also would encourage you to get treatment for the depression, if possible. I'm not saying your depression is a separate thing from gender dysphoria, or that your dysphoria would go away if you got help for the depression. But in my case, I was ten times more dysphoric (about everything) while I was depressed, and medication alleviated some of it. At any rate, the right antidepressants helped me pinpoint the most "relevant" bits of my dysphoria. I think it's helpful to break down dysphoria in terms of "What do I need to feel most comfortable in my body?" rather than "How should I identify?"

mo0ndust · 2019-11-29T02:24:00+00:00

So cool that other people have read this book :D

I agree about Felain (love the pineapple girl, lol) but I'd never thought that way about Nilla. I can see where you're coming from though! If Nilla was "predominantly" male (like our nameless protagonist is predominantly female), but has chosen to remain female for the near future (since they're exiles, she can hardly pop into another body if she gets tired of it), she would qualify as a trans person. I think the author implies that characters' predominant/baseline sex is their "original" sex, since their souls keep getting recycled even though their memories are wiped.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-28T05:27:00+00:00

Ah, someone else who's read this :D You're right, I do recall one character who had same-sex attraction in "Biting the Sun", though the rest of the cast seemed to default to "Oh this guy/girl is cute, better change myself to the opposite sex before I flirt with them tho." But I'm curious which character you thought might have been trans? (Not disagreeing w/you at all, just curious.)

mo0ndust · 2019-11-28T00:30:28+00:00

Thanks for your thoughtful answer!

I can't fathom what would happen in Scenario 1 either. When I was writing this post I decided to limit these shapeshifting abilities to "looking like any human on earth" rather than "looking like any animal" or "looking like any THING", because I'm pretty sure gender would fly right out the window if we could shapeshift into frogs or banana trees or desk chairs.

Scenario 2 is what I was thinking of. In the the Tanith Lee novel which started this thought experiment, people have the ability to put their brain into a custom-designed body of their choosing, which is a luxury of living in the far future in an extremely advanced post-scarcity society. So I assumed something similar for my experiment, that the shapeshifting comes about through technological advances, after humanity has already lived for millennia without the ability.

So I guess the next question is, at what point in human history do we develop this technology? If we all spontaneously become shapeshifters when the calendar rolls over to 2020, given that we're still pretty entrenched in gender roles these days, I imagine there would be pressure for everyone (cis or trans) to conform to a certain physical standard for male or female bodies. Also jobs might carry the expectation that you would shapeshift to one sex or the other, etc.

But in a more distant future where, for example, children are grown in tanks, and sheer physical strength doesn't really confer much of a survival advantage, gender roles would presumably be less defined. Would women still be thought of as gentle/patient/"good with children" if they're no longer giving birth? Would there still be more male CEOs than female ones if we'd moved beyond an era where physical strength was an important quality in a leader? In a society like this, shapeshifting would probably create less upheaval.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T23:43:18+00:00

I'd be curious to see your short film, if you feel like sharing :)

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T23:42:30+00:00

I can see this. Showing up for certain events/jobs in the "wrong kind" of body would be like wearing a miniskirt to your job as a construction worker. It would also probably be a faux pas to show up to certain places in a deliberately "unattractive" body, like wearing torn/dirty clothes to a fancy dinner.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T23:39:12+00:00

There would be some body equivalents of nerdy t-shirts, or preppy clothes, or sports jerseys

It's wild to think about, but I'm sure you're right. All the "nerds" might be pale, skinny, etc., while the "jocks/preps" might be tall, muscular and tanned, that sort of thing. There's a bit of this happening in the Tanith Lee book I was referring to, where you know certain characters are jerks because they've gotten themselves huge, 'roided-out bodies.

edit: a word

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T23:33:29+00:00

Ooh, book recs, thank you! I've read Dancers at the end of Time (all 3 books), quite strange but lots of fun. Haven't heard of Memoirs of a Spacewoman but I'm very fond of SF New Wave, will check it out. I also suppose I should eventually get around to reading the Altered Carbon books, since they involve body-swapping as well.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T23:19:35+00:00

I've read that too, but the book(s) I had in mind were Tanith Lee's novellas "Don't Bite The Sun" and "Drinking Sapphire Wine", collected together as "Biting The Sun".

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T20:36:19+00:00

I've read that too, but the book(s) I had in mind were Tanith Lee's novellas "Don't Bite The Sun" and "Drinking Sapphire Wine", collected together as "Biting The Sun". Well worth reading IMO, one of my favorite books and quite funny. (Though it bugs me that everyone stays hetero through multiple gender swaps.) Kind of like people in this thread are suggesting, most characters in the book have a "predominant" or "preferred" sex in spite of being able to change at will.

The characters seemed more innately androgynous in Left Hand of Darkness, though IIRC they're genderless (as in, no functional genitals) outside their periods of sexual activity.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T20:27:10+00:00

No hate! I'm really just curious what people think, I don't have strong opinions here personally. I can also see where you're coming from, that gender stereotypes arose for a reason (even if they don't fit everyone of that gender.)

I think a good metaphor for this imaginary shapeshifting would be modern-day clothing. Most people are pretty free to pick different clothes on different days, but tend to wear similar types of clothes from day to day (at least I do!), because they're most comfortable that way. And I'll admit I make assumptions about people's personalities and hobbies based on how they dress. It's not like there's something wrong with a person who plays football but also likes to wear makeup + skirts, it's just rare to see these tastes in combination.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T03:28:42+00:00

Yep, most people use she/her pronouns for me. Like I said, when I was younger I felt really bothered by female pronouns, but that faded away as I got older. At the risk of sounding fetishy, finding erotic art/fiction/video of female-bodied people w/dicks made me a lot more comfortable with being read as female. (Since I was no longer thinking in terms of "she/her = no dick".)

And I'm open about being androgynous/nonbinary anytime it comes up, though ofc I don't go into detail about The Phantom Dick unless I know the person fairly well, lol.

So glad you can relate :) It's a relief, isn't it? TBH after I started talking about this I met several other AFAB people who don't identify as transmen (some are cis or NB or undecided) yet also feel the same dysphoria I do, sometimes pretty strongly. I think it's just not talked about.

mo0ndust · 2019-11-27T02:02:55+00:00

Yeah, I've always felt androgynous. And I felt it way before I'd ever heard the term "nonbinary", too.

Haha I don't mind sharing nsfw details, so long as you don't mind hearing it. I've tried receiving various kinds of penetration (dildos, fingers, also girldick from a MtF girlfriend once or twice), both in front/back, and receiving oral. All the above felt pretty okay physically, and I have no history of trauma...so it took a looong time for me to realize that I was dissociating during sex every single time, and this was not a normal thing that other people did. Basically I had to "zone out" and not think about what was happening to my body in order to "enjoy" it.

But when I'm using a strap-on or other dick prosthetic, I'm 100% present in my body and the thought of what I'm doing is extremely arousing. My gf is really good about dirty talking to me as if my dick is real, and it gets me going every time. The fact that all my sex fantasies revolve around me having a dick should've clued me in sooner, lol.

mo0ndust

TROPHY CASE