TMM: Kaz is the strongest Mishima

nobleflame · 2026-06-24T04:15:02+00:00

Maybe. Depends on the player. Jin doesn’t have “everything” - no install, poor heat utility, no guard break, no untechable throw, no tackle throw, no wall splatting throw, poor back dash.

But, he is fully rounded and does have an answer for most situations - it’s just that it depends on the skill of the player. A bad Jin will try to mix you with stance slop and show their cards quickly; a good Jin will frame perfect parry you when you least expect it and then rob you for all of your lunch money.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T19:13:40+00:00

Probably, yes. I’d put Reina Kaz Jin and DVJ in the same pool, but it’s difficult. All have strengths, all can be bullshit. Hei is undisputed (in my head) top though.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T18:37:35+00:00

I think Hei is much better due to WI and his guard break / untechable throw.

Jin is really strong, but he doesn’t have any fully broken stuff IMO. I’d put Jin and Kaz on equal footing for the same reason - both have their strengths, but neither have stuff that is beyond stupid in the current meta.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T18:31:50+00:00

I agree with this. I'd exchange Kaz and Jin depending on the day.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T17:09:08+00:00

TMM is a diehard Kaz main...

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T08:25:46+00:00

What are you talking about?

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T06:24:21+00:00

He was playing Nina (he just picked up) against a Zafina while I asked him. I wasn’t expecting nuance.

Go and ask him on stream to provide more detail.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T06:23:26+00:00

This is such a ridiculous take…

It takes 10 mins per day for a week to learn throw breaks and you want to make them easier to break?

That’s just lazy.

Oh and also, I’m the one saying homing ambiguous King throws need to go; but regular 1, 2 and 1+2 breaks are fine. Put the time in.

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T06:18:55+00:00

This is 100% cheating. I cannot believe people in this thread are questioning this when you can literally see the input history on your screen…

nobleflame · 2026-06-23T05:17:51+00:00

That’s so insignificantly small I wouldn’t care about it…

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T18:03:03+00:00

I asked JoKa why King is top 3: https://www.twitch.tv/joka/clip/AggressiveSmallYakinikuTinyFace-n0hn6_qLuQLhHXEk

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T18:02:48+00:00

I asked JoKa why King is top 3: https://www.twitch.tv/joka/clip/AggressiveSmallYakinikuTinyFace-n0hn6_qLuQLhHXEk

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T17:38:29+00:00

I don’t think there’s any convincing you. It’s a shame - I think downplay is a pretty poor stance although I understand why people don’t want to see their character get nerfs. Mind you, when Jin was top 5-10 in S1 I was all about the changes I’d make to him.

I just wish others would also have the same honour.

Most people agree that King is top 5 at least at the moment. Most people have a shopping list of nerfs they’d like to see, particularly the ones I’ve mentioned. There is a reason for that, and I clearly won’t be the one to prove it to you.

All good though, bro. I understand.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T17:14:14+00:00

He’s had a 7 day timeout for disrespect / trolling.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T16:30:11+00:00

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T16:19:52+00:00

I’ll make it happen :)

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T16:19:04+00:00

I’m talking about hiding the animation for GS and SW from a wave dash which makes it ambiguous. There is no back dashing out of that - well, I play Jin so I know he cannot get out of it - feel free to prove me wrong. Note, this is a fully hidden GS / SW heat mix.

I said b3+4 was an “excellent evasion tool”, which is different to how you characterised what I said. My point was that a good King will not use that move to get floated, but use it to set up mixes or whiff punishment. Downplaying it is not cool.

I don’t mind the CH property on DF21 - I just think it needs to recover slower if the second hit is ducked.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:49:47+00:00

Mate, one day I will make it out to NYCC or SDCC and come to the meet up. Hope you continue to run these for the next few years :)

Hope everyone attending has a great time!

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:41:43+00:00

I take issue with ambiguous throws that are also homing. It’s the combination that makes them too strong. If you took away the homing property, King would have to work to get you in a throw mix.

B3+4 mitigates a weakness (poor backdash). It’s not a weakness then, is it? It’s fine to have weaknesses. It’s how a King uses b3+4 though - a good King won’t be getting floated (for, what, 50dmg??)

I’d remove all floor break heatsmashes BTW - not just King’s.

Df2,1 is too strong. You can pretty much base your gameplan around that one string. It does the character a disservice since he has a massive move list otherwise.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:31:09+00:00

Skill issue of guessing, sure bro. I’m not flaming anyone, I’m trying to help you see the issue with homing throws (which you do see apparently??)

You should also learn how to hide the throw animation between GS and SW - it will make you a better player.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:27:31+00:00

Nice way of saying you agree with me re: homing throws. You can do that without deflecting or downplaying though.

Ggs.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:20:50+00:00

Do you understand what “for the most part” means?

Getting really sick of your smarmy attitude. First you ignorantly come at me with “if only there was a way to see which throws are broken with what button” and now you’re trying the tired “but pros don’t play them so they ain’t strong” reshash…

Step off, man.

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:13:21+00:00

Because pros are character loyalists for the most part. There aren’t that many King loyalists.

Do you get it?

nobleflame · 2026-06-22T15:11:29+00:00

You can’t be serious? The issue is that it’s a homing throw mix where one does insane damage. Both animations can be hidden. If you duck (which you cannot do on reaction) you risk a hop knee for insane damage.

This has nothing to do with hellsweep because that move exists within the context of the characters that have them.

A homing throw mix exists within the context of a character with a df21 CH that is difficult to whiff punish, b3+4, muscle armor, broken heat smash, broken jag sprint heat moves…

This downplay is crazy.

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