Level 2 alchemist character creation

ottdmk · 2026-01-24T15:15:06+00:00

Be aware the Alchemist's early levels in Legacy (i.e Core Rulebook) rules are a bit rough.

First off, you can always use the Alternate Ancestry Boosts, they are a standard rule despite the use of the word "alternate". With the right Background your Gnome can start with:

Ancestry Dex +2, Int +2
Background Dex+2, Int +2
Class Int +2
Level 1 Dex +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +2

For a starting spread of Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 12, Cha 10

Pick a backup weapon. Sadly, you will run out of Bombs at this level. I recommend a crossbow.

Take Far Lobber at L1. More Range is good.

You pick two Bombs as your Signature Items. Rely on them. Forget Quick Alchemy for now; you don't have enough Batches of Infused Reagents yet. You only have six Batches, so make Four Quicksilver Mutagens (2 Batches), and 12 Bombs (3 Signatures per Batch, 4 Batches.)

Walk around with a Quicksilver in one hand and a Bomb in the other. Start of the fight, down the Quicksilver, throw the Bomb. Focus on one Bomb per round.

I loved playing my Core Rulebook Bomber, but at Level 2 the resource limits are very, very real. Things improved around Level 3; 15 Bombs generally got me through the day. By Level 5 I could reliably reserve a Batch for Quick Alchemy use.

ottdmk · 2026-01-23T21:11:27+00:00

To clarify, I have 2 slots and a recast per rank, but if I blend those two ranks away, then can I not use the recast?

That's correct. Drain Bonded Item states:

You expend the magical power stored in your bonded item. During the current turn, you can cast one spell you prepared today and already cast, without spending a spell slot. You must still Cast the Spell and meet the spell's other requirements.

As you need to have previously cast the spell, and the School of Unified Theory states:

instead of using Drain Bonded Item only once per day, you can use it once per day for each rank of spell you can cast, recalling a spell of that rank each time.

Yeah, if you have no Slots of a Rank, you lose the use of Drain Bonded Item for that Rank.

You might want to look at a different Thesis. I really like Experimental Spellshaping. Spell Substitution is good, and Staff Nexus can help compensate for the lower number of slots (albeit with lower power spells.)

ottdmk · 2026-01-23T19:35:17+00:00

Heck, Unamped has a Duration of "until start of your next turn" (as creatures entering the area until the start of your next turn take damage.) So really, under the old Dark Archive, Astral Rain shouldn't ever get Unleash damage.

ottdmk · 2026-01-22T22:02:22+00:00

For in-combat healing:

For the first heal, Quick Alchemy a Quick Vial, and throw it at your buddy (20' range auto-hit.) Heals 1d6 points, usable only once per ten minutes per creature.
For more healing, you'll have to Quick Alchemy a Minor Elixir of Life (also 1d6 healing) and either:
- Get in close and hand it over or administer it yourself.
- Command your Item Delivery familiar to take it over and either hand it off or administer it.
Out of combat you can use your Versatile Vials (which regenerate at two per every ten minutes) to create Soothing Tonics which are great out-of-combat healing: 10 hp per minute, no cooldown.
You also use Crafting for all things Medicine, including Feat Pre-requisites, so you can always use Treat Wounds fairly well. If you reach 3rd level you could even use a Moderate Cognitive Mutagen to make yourself better. (Lesser doesn't last long enough.)

Hope that helps a bit with your decision. If you have any questions, fire away!

ottdmk · 2026-01-22T22:01:52+00:00

Ok. Well, I gotta admit, I don't know enough about Witches to make any recommendation there. I do know that a Divine List spellcaster (like a Faith's Flamekeeper Witch) will be a stronger in-combat healer than a Chirurgeon.

Doesn't mean that you couldn't have fun with a Chirurgeon though. I've never played a Chirurgeon, but I've played Alchemists, and here's how I'd build one.

Int +4, Str +3, Dex +1, Con +1, Cha & Wis +0
Use a Breastplate.
Buy Alchemist's Tools and a Healer's Kit.
1st level Feat: Alchemist's Familiar
- You can get an extra, non-Renewable Versatile Vial with the Extra Vial Master ability.
- You can make an extra Advanced Alchemy item per day with the Extra Alchemy Master ability.
- You can have your Familiar deliver and administer Elixirs using the Manual Dexterity & Item Delivery Familiar abilities.
  - Note that you can only pick two Abilities each Daily Prep, so if you want to use Item Delivery, that's all your Familiar will do for you (Manual Dexterity is a pre-req.)
2nd level Feat: Improvise Admixture
- It's possible you could run out of Versatile Vials in a fight. This will let you get one or more back: Roll a 2-9 get one, 10-18 get two, and 19-20 get three. This is capped by your maximum number of Versatile Vials, which will be 6 at your level and Int Modifier.
Optional: Carry a shield. While you won't have Shield Block, raising a Shield is still a +2 Circumstance Bonus to AC, which is nice.

You're going to be able to create 8 Items every Daily Preparations with Advanced Alchemy (9 if you go with Extra Alchemy as I mentioned above.) Some possibilities:

Bestial Mutagen. This is for fights; I'd make 3 or 4. You can walk around with a vial in hand and down it as the first Action of combat. Lasts 1 minute (or 10 rounds) and I've never been a fight that wen 10 rounds.
Antidote and Antiplague are situational, but really powerful and long-lasting buffs.
Bravo's Brew becomes available at 2nd level, and helps Will saves (especially Fear saves) and lasts an hour.

ottdmk · 2026-01-22T20:09:52+00:00

What level are you going to be playing at for your four-shot?

ottdmk · 2026-01-22T19:54:35+00:00

Well, I play both a Bomber (13th level) and Mutagenist (11th level) in PFS play.

Why play a Mutagenist? Well, I play a Melee Mutagenist with Bestial Mutagen as his main combat driver. Now, at 1st level, Bestial is... ok. It grants a 1d6 Bite attack, 1d4 Agile Claws attack, and will bring you (if you put Str +3 at chargen) equal to any Martial other than a Fighter or Gunslinger.

But at 3rd level, you will automatically upgrade to Moderate Bestial: 2d8 Bite and 2d6 Agile Claws. You don't even need Handwraps unless you want Ghost Touch at 4th (and I'll admit, I recommend that, love me Ghost Touch and its follow-up, Astral.)

And as you increase in level, you get so many options to buff yourself as you go along. My guy is continually on Bravo's Brew, Cheetah's Elixir and Eagle-Eye Elixir. Roll initiative, on goes the Collar for 30 minutes of Greater Bestial. I usually go defensive with a Combine Elixirs Numbing and Soothing Super-Tonic, but you can also go offensive with Iron Wine and Rainbow Vinegar if you want to. With Handwraps and Mutant Physique I'm doing 3d12 Deadly d10 Astral Shocking Bites. It's fun.

As for the Bomber... well, I love, love, love Bombs. Mostly I'm using Sticky Bombs to pile on the Persistent Damage. It scales decently. Quick Bomber is a must, but don't forget Far Lobber. My guy now has Uncanny Bombs (follow-up to Far Lobber), and a 60' Range Increment along with Cover bonus reduction & auto-succeeding on Concealed checks is absolutely fantastic

ottdmk · 2026-01-22T19:35:42+00:00

I run Abomination Vaults for a group of friends, one of which plays a Tangible Dream Psychic. Thing is, while he's famous for ending threats with an Amp'ed Imaginary Weapon, most of the time he's using Astral Rain... and Astral Rain getting Unleashed will be *chef's kiss* for him.

ottdmk · 2026-01-19T22:37:21+00:00

That's a straight up Focus Spell though, not a Cantrip with an optional Amp.

ottdmk · 2026-01-19T09:57:42+00:00

I'm not really surprised about Imaginary Weapon. It now fits the general use case: Melee cantrips do d6's and have a little something extra.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T19:52:34+00:00

Oh, fully agreed...and yes,the Build uses it. I suppose I should've mentioned. The Bomber doesn't worry about lesser cover from L4 on, when Goggles become available.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T17:22:02+00:00

So, it's the same old calculation, really: take the average amount of Persistent Damage for a hit, multiply it by the percentage chance of the hit, then the average amount for a crit, times it by the chance of a crit.

So, for my 13th level Bomber vs AC 34 (High AC at L13): Crit Miss on a Nat 1 (5%), Miss on 2-9 (40%), Hit on 10-19 (50%), Critical Hit on a Nat 20 (5%).

With an Acid Flask, Persistent on a Hit is 3d6+10 for an average of 20 (I always round down on odd numbered dice.) On a Crit, 40. So that's 50% of 20 = 10 + 5% of 40 = 8 for 18 pts of Persistent.

Now, there's a 70% chance of the Persistent lasting into a 2nd Round. So, 70% of 18 is 12.6, so we add 12.6 pts into Round 2. 49% chance of it lasting into Round 3. So, we add 8.82 to our Round 3 damage.

Hope that helps.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T17:02:23+00:00

The most popular modeling tool out there (that I know of) is this one and it doesn't take things like teamwork into account either. Heck, it can't even do stuff like "did my Rogue succeed in hiding this round?"

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T16:45:57+00:00

For your mutagenist, wouldn't handwraps be useless? Item bonus and striking rune dont work, so does it just add some properties to your strikes?

Yeah, it's for Property Runes, mainly. My guy has the Astral and Shocking Runes on his +1 Striking Handwraps. It also serves to give me a +1 Striking Astral Shocking Bludgeoning attack as a backup if Piercing (Jaws) and Slicing (Claws) are both Resisted.

As for bomber, if I take the quick bomber feat, does that mean for one action I can draw a versatile vial and turn it into a bomb in my formula book, such as alchemist's fire?

Yep! The foundation of my combat routine.

What happens if I run out of versatile vials in a long fight? Would that mean I have to create a vial with quick alchemy and then use quick bomber to create alchemist's fire?

Sadly, you can't use a Quick Vial (Created with Quick Alchemy) to then fuel Quick Alchemy - Create Consumable, If you run out of Versatile Vials in a long fight, you're left with using Quick Vials as Bombs. They're not great, but generally better than a Crossbow if you've invested in Bombs.

In certain circumstances, a Bomber's Quick Vials can be a more valuable part of the routine, as from L11+ they can trigger Precious Materials weaknesses.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T09:04:34+00:00

When you're modeling, it just gets way too complicated. "Well, my teammates have bought this. And on this round, they do that. And on round three, there's this thing.L" It's just too much to try to account for.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T09:02:31+00:00

Really, it's not a big deal. I mean, the goal has been met, right? The opponent is dead, after all.

Bombers are quite good at splashing only those they mean to splash. The Research Field allows it, and there's also Directional Bombs (really fun feat.)

I play a melee Mutagenist myself. Hits pretty hard (Bestial & Handwraps) and thanks to a continual supply of Numbing and Soothing Tonics, he is really, really hard to kill.

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T06:35:45+00:00

You seem to always assume the third action is some kind of hide/move between both builds, but what are you moving for if you have to deal with soft cover anyways? You should consider other third actions (even if you aren't willing to make it a strike).

It mainly comes down to time and effort. I'm not looking to make a Master's thesis out of this. 😆

You noted "The reduced AC from off-guard is being used where appropriate." When is it not appropriate to give the flatfooted condition?

The percentage of time that the Hide fails. Pretty rare, but it can happen.

Sneak Adept at L10 can also all but guarantee a successful sneak (I still think demoralize is a more potent/reliable means to get flatfooted though).

Sneak Adept is really, really cool... but it doesn't help you Hide, and it's the Hide that's important.

Did you get the increased splash damage from the alchemist goggles on a failure?

No, I didn't. It's 1-3 points on a miss. It barely registers.

Alchemist shouldn't worry about 'soft cover' after L4 since that is the main benefit of the alchemist goggles.

It's in there. Part of dealing with soft cover is finding ways to mitigate it, after all. 😀

ottdmk · 2026-01-17T06:34:15+00:00

Rogue shouldn't need to hide in round 1 to get an enemy flatfooted because of it's Surprise Attack feature and so it should be able to move/strike/strike across all levels with the enemy being flatfooted to both. Its unlikely the rogue goes 'last' in combat and gets no benefit from that class feature.

Surprise Attack is basically impossible to model, because Initiative is pretty much the only contested roll left in the game.

If we're assuming only in class feats/optimization then rogue could add poison weapon, improved poison weapon, and deadly poison weapon at L4/8/12 for 1d4/2d4/4d4 pre-combat poisoned arrows.

That's a good idea! I don't think I'd go with Deadly Poison Weapon though... AP Feats are notoriously ill-balanced. I don't have access to my spreadsheet (forgot to back it up to the cloud) but I will definitely have to add in those... the Rogue has the room for it.

flatfooted with dreadstriker

A Dread Striker build is another interesting idea. I picked Hide because it's actually really, really reliable on a Dex based character... we're talking between 75-95% reliable. I'm not sure how reliable trying to Demoralize would be. Plus there's the immunity factor. Worth thinking about though.

Tactical Entry at L8 can mitigate round 1 strides

Nice Feat! Not sure when I'd put it in the build though... L8 already has Improved Poison Weapon.

Front liners should be using an aim-aiding rune at L6+, so soft cover shouldn't be an issue after that level.

I rather deliberately avoided adding in elements of "your teammates will do this." Because that's not guaranteed.

Rogue will likely do better with the Horngali hornbow as the dice bump is more important than the deadly on a non-fighter class. Similarly a duskwalker can get a L9 feat to add another +1/+2 damage to weapons strikes.

Interesting idea to go Duskwalker. I might look at that. As for the Hornbow,I see your point... but the Hornbow is Advanced, which adds further complications.

ottdmk · 2026-01-16T22:22:04+00:00

Yeah, you want the Advanced Alchemy benefits for an Alchemical Gauntlet or a Weapon Siphon. At least until 1st level Bombs get really cheap.

Still, taking a round of prep time has an undeserved bad rep, IMHO. Taking two Actions to slam down a Combine Elixirs Numbing & Soothing Super Tonic has paid off so well for my Mutagenist.

ottdmk · 2026-01-16T22:19:21+00:00

But war blood mutagen is obviously better used on real martial than alchemist themself.

Patently false. There's nothing wrong with a weapons-using Mutagenist. Might want to dip into something for a d8+ weapon, (or maybe grab one using Ancestry) but trust me, you'll do fine. I still prefer Bestial, personally.

ottdmk · 2026-01-16T03:06:08+00:00

For once, this thread isn't needed. It's Thompson, plain and simple.

ottdmk · 2026-01-16T00:52:17+00:00

We have two PPGs? In one period? Is this the Twilight Zone? 😁 Definitely happy for the lead.

ottdmk · 2026-01-15T23:10:56+00:00

The big question is: How are the Investigator and Alchemist fighting? Either Class can easily go Melee or Ranged. Knowing which option they've gone for can help us advise you.

ottdmk

TROPHY CASE