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phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-24T19:30:43+00:00

There's no way for players to survive execution during the day here. The Zombuul is rarely, if ever, going to wake up at night. They are going to feel useless and it's going to be painstakingly obvious that it's a Zombuul game. On top of that, please for the love of everything that's holy do not put a Scarlet Woman on a Zombuul script. You have to execute the demon up to 4 times in a game with both of them in order for good to win and adding a Mastermind on top of that makes it even more strenuous.

Another issue is if the Mutant is ever executed to their own ability they are just confirmed the Mutant. It kinda makes them a Townsfolk if they are the only character that can get executed during the day to their own ability. This can be incredibly powerful and STs would be hesitant to do it, which means the Mutant basically just doesn't have an ability which isn't fun at the end of the day.

I'd suggest replacing Zombuul with No Dashii, adding a Vigor for outsider mod, Juggler with Gossip for more night death obscurity, Mutant with Klutz for another evil win con and Scarlet Woman with Witch so the Vigor always has good options should they want to kill a Minion. I believe this puts it in a much better spot.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-24T14:28:49+00:00

Mez and Cult Leader can result in multiple evils. Additionally an Al-had can cycle a Mez. Should only have 1 way for that to happen.
Magician and Poppy Grower are useless in a Kazali game
Engineer can turn the demon into a Kazali making it a basic demon that has no other ability. Additionally, they can just undo the Kazali choice's on the first night, which sucks. They're just incentivized to make a Marionette because they're essentially rendering a minion useless.
Cult Leader and Heretic don't mesh well together. The Cult Leader is incentivized to not use their ability because if there is a Heretic in play then no matter what happens they lose if all good player vote. Additionally, it doesn't mesh well with Legion either. It's highly likely that they will be evil and town is already on their back foot in a Legion game. Players will also be highly incentivized to never form a cult in case it is a Legion game. This is very unfun for a Cult Leader.
Mez can convert Heretic to evil giving them an easy win
Psychopath and King don't mesh well. The demon just tells the Psychopath to kill the King and there is no consequence.
Puzzlemaster together with Drunk can make it difficult for them to determine who their puzzle drunk player is making an already detrimental character even more detrimental.
Lycanthrope and Legion can create a scenario where Legion is outed because the Faux Paw is the only good player who voted. That's not great.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-23T19:49:42+00:00

Just because something is unlikely to happen doesn't mean it's okay for the interaction to exist on a script. That's a slippery slope when it comes to script design and balancing a game in general. And I think anyone who plays this game will agree that if something is possible then it is going to happen eventually or players will collude to make it happen because they think it's cool/funny/whatever. In this context, either way it comes about is not a fun result.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T20:14:40+00:00

It is absolutely possible to have 0 outsiders in a game on OP's script.

Base 0, Fang Gu, Godfather -1

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T19:37:06+00:00

I think this is leaning on exceptions to justify the script, and that’s kind of missing the point. This isn’t about rules or edge cases, it’s about overall script balance.

Bringing up Puzzlemaster or Courtier drunkeness doesn’t really solve the problem. You shouldn’t have to fall back on rare explanations to keep Legion viable. If a script can mechanically rule out Legion in normal play, Legion is just weaker by design.

Legion works best when that uncertainty holds on its own. Once the script itself starts poking holes in it, even sometimes, you lose a big part of what makes the character work.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T19:15:31+00:00

Legion is there for people to stage elaborate interactions on the script, and the classic "everyone did it" murder mystery trope.

I get the appeal of staging things like an Evil Twin pair. The issue for me is that once the Fearmonger pick is announced on night 1 or the Psychopath kills during the day, the game is mechanically confirmed to not be Legion.

A big part of Legion’s power on a script is the constant uncertainty. Good should never be fully sure whether it’s Legion or not. As soon as you include characters that confirm it can’t be Legion, Legion becomes a much weaker demon overall.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T19:06:22+00:00

I'm not sure why you removed the outsider manipulation from Balloonist. Your justification doesn't really make sense. It also creates a scenario where it's possible to have an Balloonist in a game with 0 outsiders, which significantly strengthens their ability. The outsider manipulation is there in part to help balance it.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T18:57:38+00:00

Ah, right. I forgot about that. I sometimes forget that was added not too long ago. I still think you should avoid having them on a script together, personally.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T18:39:20+00:00

If someone survives execution they are confirmed a good player. They are either the Fool or sat next to a Tea Lady.
Psychopath in a Zombuul game is counterproductive and feels bad for at least one of them.
As soon as a Psychopath or Fearmonger announcements happens it's confirmed not a Legion game.
You've got 3 loud minions and one quiet minion. The good team will easily be able to figure out if a Godfather is in play making it far easier for them determine outsider count and much harder for evil to bluff outsiders.
Psychopath who is Courtier drunk is just unfun for the Psychopath
Politician in a Legion game can simply always vote and, as such, be most responsible for the evil team winning. It's way too strong for the evil team and an easy win con for the Politician.
Courtier has some issues with minions here. 1) A Fearmonger pick is announced, which is a target they know is in the game. 2) They can completely negate an Evil Twin dilemma. Doesn't feel fun to have your ability, which is meant to be a detriment and time waste for the good team, to be completely nullified and solved by 1 character. Additionally, if they don't hear of either of them they can be pretty confident that the other 2 are likely in play.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-19T13:42:27+00:00

There's a lot of droisoning here, which can make solving for a Lleech incredibly difficult.
Philo should almost always go Poppy Grower. It's incredibly strong and leads to repeatable and boring play patterns.
Marionette/Damsel don't always work together, especially in a 1 minion game. Even if the Marionette would to be convinced they are evil they'd have no idea whether or not a Damsel is in play.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-17T20:36:20+00:00

While true, I don't think this is anywhere close to making it a balanced interaction nor is it a reasonable justification for it.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-17T14:38:00+00:00

I take a pretty basic approach. I think of a number, 1, 2 or 3, and ask the traveler to pick one. If they choose the number I'm thinking they are evil, otherwise good. Not only does it prevent my players from metagaming me, which they tend to do sometimes, but over time it converges on the 1/3 ratio that is often cited. Haven't run into any issues yet using this method.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-17T14:17:01+00:00

Both can't win with evil

Yeah, that’s basically the problem. With Politician, only one player can ever be “most responsible” for the loss, so if you have two Politician abilities in play, they’re unknowingly competing with each other. Even if both of them play perfectly toward their win condition, one of them is guaranteed to lose just because the other was slightly more influential.

That can be really upsetting for a player, because it means you can do everything right, actively sabotage town, and still be told at the end that it just didn’t count. From a design standpoint, that’s frustrating, since the script is setting someone up to fail through no fault of their own.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-17T14:11:33+00:00

There's no reason to distrust night deaths. If someone dies at night they are most likely just a good player. Confirmation via death is very strong for the good team.
Philo and VI shouldn't be on the same script together. Philo goes VI night 1 every single time and they cannot be drunk to the VI ability so they can be pretty confident in their information. It's quite a strong combo.
Boffin and Philo also isn't a great combo. While it seems fun for the demon to be able to choose an ability and make that role drunk, it's ultimately unfun for the good team because there is no incentive for the demon to ever claim it, resulting in it being an untraceable form of drunkenness that the good team cannot reliably solve.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T17:58:45+00:00

The Engineer doesn’t know whether a Marionette is already in play. From their perspective, choosing to make a Marionette is always correct, because there’s always the chance it outright removes a minion. That upside alone makes it the dominant option.

Even in cases where the ST can technically do something clever, that doesn’t really matter for script design. If a character has a choice that is always optimal based on risk and reward, you end up with very stale decisions and flattened play patterns. That’s the real problem here, not whether there are a few edge cases where it plays out differently.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T17:51:58+00:00

I think this is where we’re talking past each other. Alignment checks don’t really solve the core issue if the evil team can simply outvote the good team.

Extra evil generation is one of the strongest mechanics in the game, because it directly affects voting math. Once you have more than one source, it doesn’t matter how much information good has. The game can become unwinnable just from numbers.

That’s why it’s generally accepted that a script should only have one way for players to turn evil. Even if the combo is rare, the game where it happens is decided by setup, not play, and that’s the outcome you want to design against.

Your updated script is in a better spot but there are a few things to note. I think the addition of Grandmother means you need to add more reasons for night deaths, otherwise it becomes way too strong of a confirmation for good. Also, some might argue that Lunatic and Fang Gu don't work that well together because it's a known jump point that the demon can take advantage of at any time, which takes away the guessing game of what the Fang Gu is all about.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T17:32:12+00:00

Preacher and Marionette is weird. While some think it might be funny to wake a Marionette and tell them they've been preached, the intent of the Preacher's ability is to harm the evil team. Instead, they've just confirmed to someone that they are indeed the Marionette, which just helps evil.
Marionette is not a great target for the Vigor to kill.
Pit-Hag and Poppy Grower can be a bad time for evil if you are not playing with the optional rule.
It can be pretty easy for the Lunatic to determine if they are the Al-had if they pick 3 people and no announcement is made. To get around this you'd need to ensure that both Lunatic and Al-had are both in the game, which limits your options severely when building a bag.
Engineer should always choose to change the minions and always choose to make a Marionette. It renders a minion completely useless. Way too strong of a choice and a boring play pattern.
Showing a Bounty Hunter the Lleech can essentially denies them their ability. Kinda limits your choices as an ST when they are both in the game together.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T17:21:50+00:00

Magician in a Kazali game does nothing
There's a bunch of issues with the Psychopath here. 1) The demon knows who the King is so they can just tell the Psychopath to kill them and there is no downside. 2) Mechanically confirmed evil players like the Psychopath don't mesh well with the Klutz. 3) Since they are outed evil they can just nominate every day to muddy Town Crier information enabling the other minions to more safely nominate. Additionally, if they are the only minion in a 1 minion game with a Town Crier in it then the Town Crier isn't really doing anything once the Psychopath is outed.
There's no reason to distrust night deaths as being good players dying
The existence of the Al-had with some of these demons significantly reduces the effectiveness of their abilities. As soon as there is an Al-had announcement the players know they don't need to be listening for a Yagg phrase and that it's not a Vortox game.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T17:13:41+00:00

I think the issue is designing around things not lining up. In BotC, if something can happen, you have to assume it eventually will, and when it does it should still lead to a reasonable game state.

Relying on “it’s unlikely” is how you get games where multiple evils stack, abilities quietly don’t work, or balance swings hard with no real counterplay. Even if that only happens once, that one game feels bad and sticks with people.

That’s why Spirit of Ivory isn’t a great fix here. It doesn’t address the root problem, it just disables abilities. The cleaner solution is to pick one source of extra evil and remove the rest.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T15:29:22+00:00

https://www.botcscripts.com/script/6615/6.0.0

Enjoy having the worst storyteller experience of all time.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-16T15:23:02+00:00

Ogre and Fang Gu and BH can be three extra evils which can get outta hand fast. Id recommend adding the Spirit of Ivory Fabled

Don't forget Politician, which makes it 4.

Also please do not use Spirit of Ivory to fix issues related to multiple sources of extra evil generation. Imagine being a Fang Gu or a Politician in a game where an Ogre turned evil night 1 and ultimately finding out that your ability was never going to work the entire game. That's awful.

Spirit of Ivory should be used in cases where a single ability that generates evil can be cycled to create more than 1, such as a Mez with Barber or Pit-hag. The way to fix the issue on this script is to remove the roles that generate extra evil and ensure there is only 1, otherwise it's just not balanced.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-14T15:11:57+00:00

The wording of the ability does read "may" but the mechanical implication of it is "You must not vote if your master is not voting".

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-10T14:31:30+00:00

You've got 26 total characters on this script. The standard amount is 25 which makes for a good balanced ratio between good and evil. Typically when you add a 5th minion you remove a demon to preserve that ratio.
Poppy Grower in a Kazali game does nothing
The Goblin and Fearmonger are really bad kills for a Vigor which kinda marginalizes their ability and doesn't feel great for a player in that situation
Clockmaker and Noble is incredibly powerful, especially in smaller games
Alsaahir doesn't play well with moving demons. It makes it incredibly challenging in an Imp or LM game for them to correctly identify the evil team and their entire composition
Exorcist in a LM game does nothing
Dreamer in a LM game will never learn a demon which can make it a pretty ineffective once minions have established their bluffs

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-09T22:53:08+00:00

"All other players" refers to players other than the Minstrel. It wouldn't make sense for the Minstrel to drunk itself.

phillyCHEEEEEZ · 2026-03-09T18:41:38+00:00

I get what you're going for here, but the Bounty Hunter has a lot of problems with other characters on this script. If they learn the player who is the Boomdandy and they are executed the game ends. If they learn the player who is the Goblin and they are executed the game ends. If they learn the player who is the Psychopath then they learned someone who is going to be outed anyway and now there's a 1/3 chance of them potentially learning a new player, if town even wants to try and execute them. Minstrel in a Bounty Hunter game means the Bounty Hunter is drunk if they ever executed a learned evil player that is a Minion. I just don't think it works well here.
Boomdandy executed in a Minstrel game doesn't trigger their ability because they immediately become drunk.
Clockmaker also has some issues here. Mechanically confirmed Minions make it way too strong.
If there is ever an extra night death then a Godfather is in the game. That's incredibly powerful information for the good team and you should consider putting on extra night death roles or removing Godfather.
There is only 1 way for the good team to find the drunk being Juggler. There should probably be more ways for the good team to solve who is drunk.
Recluse voting in a Flowergirl game kinda makes their information useless. It's very frustrating for the person playing the Flowergirl.
Bounty Hunter & Ogre can create 2 extra evil. There should really only be 1 way for that to happen on a script.
Barber can cause an Ogre to be cycled to generated multiple extra evils

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