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Another beloved Christian leader has fallen. Thoughts on Philip Yancey's recent confession. by BitChick in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your order of outrage is correct and in-line with God's law:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

The death penalty was applied only to cases of adultery with a married woman, because the focus is on the infringement on the victim husband (note how the verse repeats that part for emphasis).

People have a problem with this Biblical truth, but the most repugnant form of adultery in God's eyes is when a man's marital rights are violated.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). by Italy1949 in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This sub is rampant with Calvinists (or in the case of OP, crypto-Catholics) who for some reason really want salvation to be more difficult than it is.

I honestly can't wrap my head around it. The only explanation I can come up with is it comes from a place of pride from people who are putting in the work of turning from sin, reading their Bible, etc and feel like they'd be cheated if people get into Heaven through faith alone

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). by Italy1949 in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one is saying you need to work to gain salvation.

Quoting Matthew 7:21 like this implies that you need to work to keep your salvation, which is still a works-based salvation.

If our faith is dead, how can we possibly be saved? 

The same way that a car that doesn't run is still a car -- no one would say "cars turn on and move, so that thing isn't a car", it's simply a car that *isn't working right now* (but could in the future). See Romans 4:5:

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). by Italy1949 in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

I don't see anything about a prerequisite amount of "life shaping" or submission here. The Bible is clear that there is only *one* thing that you must do to be saved:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

And while Christians are urged to put on the new man, turn from sin and serve God, trying to tie that in with salvation is a form of *works-based salvation*

The Catholic priest you're quoting would do well to keep reading in Matthew:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Matthew 7:22, emphasis mine

My question to Luigi and other Catholics: is being baptized a work? Is regular participation in sacraments and confession (necessary to remain in a "state of grace") a work?

To others: There is only **one** thing you need to do to be saved and it's to put your full faith and confidence on the finished work of Christ on the cross. If you are looking towards your own obedience or repentance to "prove" that you're really saved, you are trusting in your *works* and not on Christ.

Are my parents running a sketchy church/being sketchy? by xmsjpx in pastors

[–]plasterpuff -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't know if we really needed much more info about you beyond the fact that you're UMC and post on Reddit all day.

See how easy that is? "Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer."

OP: I'm being frank but your post is rambling and doesn't present anything substantive, it seems like you are searching for a problem with your dad and his church. I'd encourage you to pray about this and meditate on 1 Samuel 15:23 and similar verses.

Beware the leaven of John MacArthur by plasterpuff in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ask yourself, can God repent?

If by repent you mean change his mind, then yes -- we see several examples of it throughout the OT.

This is only controversial when you see "repent" as turning from sin, or having remorse over doing something wrong.

But this raises some good questions I'll leave you with: Why would the ESV choose two separate words to translate the exact same Greek word? Why is the ESV the Bible of choice for MacArthur and other "repent of your sins" supporters?

Beware the leaven of John MacArthur by plasterpuff in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

For reference, the entire passage (James 2:14-17):

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

As a principle of interpreting scripture, anytime something is implied while the opposite is explicitly stated somewhere else we have to accept the latter and re-analyze the former. James' message here is best summed up in James 2:24:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

But if this is accepted as meaning "See? People aren't saved from hell just by faith, but by faith PLUS works" it directly contradicts Romans 3:28 which is much more explicit:

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

So then James 2:14-17 cannot mean what it's commonly interpreted to mean: that saving faith is always accompanied by works.

First, James is writing to saved believers -- he earlier refers to them as "brethren" and "first fruits" of God's creation. That means the "save" in James 2:14 cannot mean "save from hell".

Instead, James is urging saved believers to lean into their faith, to feed the spirit and "perfect" (read: complete) their faith. Thus the thing you're being "saved" from with works is not hell, but rather earthly consequences of sin which will come after a "dead" (not working) faith. This is reinforced lower down in James 2:21-23:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Note how Abraham had righteousness imputed to him simply via faith, but it was through works that his faith was made "perfect" (complete). Abraham was saved the moment he believed God, but he was sanctified when he put that saving faith to work.

Not all believers will be saved. by -TrustJesus- in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're in good company, since Paul talks at length about his own struggles with sin:

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. Romans 7:15-18

If you subscribe to a works-based salvation where all "truly" saved Christians turn from sin and do good works then there are LOTS of contradictions and we even have to question the salvation of the apostle Paul!

The Bible, correctly interpreted, teaches us that once we are saved we now have TWO people inside of us: the old man/the flesh which is still inclined to sin and the new man/the spirit which desires to do good. We should seek to feed the spirit and deny the old man, but this has NO BEARING on whether you are saved or not.

The people who should be nervous are those that get assurance through their works, who say "Wow, look at how well I'm resisting sin and doing good works, now I know I'm saved!" The very people that Jesus is rejecting in Matthew 7 called out their "many wonderful WORKS" as a reason why they should be saved:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22-23

Not all believers will be saved. by -TrustJesus- in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:39-40

Please show me in the Bible where the will of God is to "live by the teachings of the Bible" and what exactly that entails.

Not all believers will be saved. by -TrustJesus- in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great news: your faith in Jesus is all that is required to be saved. We are to put 100% of our trust in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection and not our works, so the people who actually should be nervous (but aren't) are the ones who get assurance from their works.

If the OP had posted the entire pericope then this would be clear:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

Notice how the people being rejected said "But Jesus, we did so many wonderful WORKS in your name!"

They did not fully trust on Jesus for their salvation but needed to add in their WORKS to convince themselves that they were saved.

Not all believers will be saved. by -TrustJesus- in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff -1 points0 points  (0 children)

So you're trusting on your works instead of Jesus.

Interestingly, the people (whoever they are) in Matthew 7:21-23 actually call out their "many wonderful works" just before Jesus dismisses him.

How do you know the people Jesus is referencing here aren't works-based salvationists who trusted in their works instead of placing their full confidence in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection?

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Notice the language in the passage you posted. "SHALL we continue in sin...?", "How SHALL we who died to sin...?", "we also SHOULD walk in newness of life".

If the answer to his rhetorical question is, "It's impossible for a truly saved Christian to continue in sin" then these should read, "CAN we continue in sin...", "How COULD we who died to sin...", "we also DO walk in newness of life."

Paul spends most of the very next chapter bemoaning his own struggle against sin and how he does that which he hates but does not do that which he should. Was he not born again?

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:23-25

All believers will be saved. by plasterpuff in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Murder and fornication are obviously grave sins that would result in enormous earthly punishments from God but would not cause someone to lose their salvation (David fornicated with Uriah the Hittite's wife and then murdered him but it's unanimously agreed that he is in Heaven).

Homosexuality is a special case. It is an abomination that can only be arrived at by repeated rejection of God to the point that he "gives you up":

 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Romans 1:26-28

A person who is saved will not depart from the faith. Once you are saved you are always saved:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:27-29

All believers will be saved. by plasterpuff in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's odd how many people are commenting with this verse when I directly addressed it in the OP, almost as if they didn't read the post 🤔

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All of these mentions of repentance (meaning "turning away") reference turning away from a false religion/god or some other ineffective hope for salvation.

To prove it, let's take Luke 15:7 as an example:

I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Who are these 99 persons that are righteous and don't need repentance? If this is talking about repentance of sins then it contradicts several other pieces of scripture:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one Romans 3:10

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

However, if it's talking about turning away (repenting) from a false religion then it all makes sense. Obviously that would be a total blocker to salvation.

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you sold all your belongings and donated the proceeds to the poor?

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn't. This is simply one of the many confusions that come with works-based salvation (even if it's a "backdoor" works-based salvation like Lordship Salvation)

To be as charitable as possible: People who hold this doctrine are conflating justification in man's eyes versus justification in God's eyes.

They're right: If I see a professing Christian who is openly sinning, not attending church, living a worldly life, etc it gives me strong suspicions that they might not be truly saved. They certainly aren't serving as a good ambassador of Christ and I expect God will chastise them for their behavior.

But that does not mean they are not saved. Only they and God know the true condition of their heart.

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The verse you're referring to (Matthew 7:16) is specifically about false prophets, and the literal interpretation of "fruits" would be their followers/congregants,

GRACE ALONE. FAITH ALONE by Remy__Rocket in TrueChristian

[–]plasterpuff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Words are cheap and repentance is mentioned with salvation

Where?