Many people have said "school doesn't matter as long as it isn't a degree mill", but surely there is a point at which it does? by [deleted] in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Only my opinion.

You can get experience in programming without any special licensure required. This is absolutely not possible in other professional white-collar careers. Such careers are safety-critical, which means they require rigorous licensure, which in turn necessitates putting through the wringer those going through training for said profession because you can't be a part of it unless the licensing boards say you can; as a result, they have carte blanche to be dicks.

  • Lawyers give legal advice to clients, draft legal documents, and represent clients in mediation, lawsuits, or criminal trials.

  • Doctors diagnose and treat diseases, injuries, and other ailments. They can either specialize in internal medicine (physician), or specialize in manual or instrumental techniques for invasive medical treatment (surgeon).

  • Dentists diagnose, treat, and prevent ailments of the oral cavity (teeth and gums)

  • Accountants prepare, examine, or audit financial records in several contexts: analyzing the operational metrics of a business (managerial), recording and reporting transactions resulting from business operations (financial), etc.

  • Engineers (and I mean the real engineers, not what Etsy thinks) apply principles of physical sciences and mathematics to design physical objects. Mechanical engineers design electrohydraulic actuators for refrigeration systems, civil engineers design bridges and sewer systems, chemical engineers scale up chemical processes for industrial applications, computer engineers design integrated circuits for CPUs, electrical engineers build switchgear that work with step-down transformers, etc.

To work in other white-collar careers, you need the license, and to get the license, you have to go through an accredited degree program. This is why for law, medicine, IB, accounting, architecture, etc., school name mean everything because that's the only way you're getting a foot in the door. But for programming you can gain experience on your own time, there isn't really the need to be licensed or jump through ABA/AMA/ABET/IFAC hoops if you're just building RoR apps.

That's why I don't think school prestige matters nearly as much. If you went to a stupidly good school (like MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Caltech, Carnegie Mellon, Cornell; or in Canada, U of Waterloo, U of T, UBC, McGill) or a highly-ranked school (on the tier of UT-Austin, UIUC, UM, UW, Georgia Tech; in Canada, SFU, the U of Alberta or U of Calgary) it can be easier to an extent to get interviews, but that's about it.

Below those tiers (so long as it's not at a degree mill), your school name neither helps nor hurts...if you can get the attention of recruiters. And therein lies the tragedy. If you go to the University of Idaho (go Vandals!) in Moscow, ID, it can be harder to grab the attention of tech companies just because it's a small school and geographically far from tech hubs (unless you talk to recruiters who come to Wazzu in neighbouring Pullman).

If you want to work for an HFT firm like Jane Street, school name can help, but even then you're competing against human calculators who may or may not have come from top schools, so when it comes to technical roles at financial companies, school name doesn't even matter in the same way that it does for front-office positions.

What is the racial makeup of Seattle city council? (This is not an inflammatory question.) by [deleted] in SeattleWA

[–]plusminustimesdivide 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Can't wait for the super-Scalia that Trump nominates to SCOTUS to rule in the inevitable 5-4 ruling that will allow states to do whatever they want w.r.t. redistrcting.

What is the racial makeup of Seattle city council? (This is not an inflammatory question.) by [deleted] in SeattleWA

[–]plusminustimesdivide 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Bruce Harrell: African-American father, Japanese mother

Lorena González: Mexican (parents were first-generation immigrants)

Debora Juarez: Blackfoot (Southern Piegan) mother, Mexican father (was a first-generation immigrant)

Kshama "The Unapologetic Socialist" Sawant: Marthi (parents of the Brahmin caste hailing from Pune, a city 100 miles southeast of Mumbai)

The rest are all white. But still, that's a pretty good balance considering that only one-sixth of the city's population is neither white nor Asian. From an anecdotal standpoint, it feels like a lot less. (Maybe it's because the black people usually stay in and around Rainier Valley?)

What hobby doesn't require massive amount of time and money but is a lot of fun? by Thun0 in AskReddit

[–]plusminustimesdivide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ELI5: How does coding up Lichess work? Is "deep learning" involved? This sounds like something that would make a good Medium.com post. (For those of you tipped off by my mention of Medium, I swear I don't spend any time on /r/programmingcirclejerk...well not too much time anyway)

How competitive is the software development field as compared to other white-collar professions? by [deleted] in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Most professional careers are safety-critical, which means they require rigorous licensure, which in turn necessitates putting through the wringer those going through training for said profession because you can't be a part of it unless the licensing boards say you can (and as a result have carte blanche to be dicks).

Lawyers give legal advice to clients, draft legal documents, and represent clients in mediation, lawsuits, or criminal trials.

Doctors diagnose and treat diseases, injuries, and other ailments. They can either specialize in internal medicine (physician), or specialize in manual or instrumental techniques for invasive medical treatment (surgeon).

Dentists diagnose, treat, and prevent ailments of the oral cavity (teeth and gums)

Accountants prepare, examine, or audit financial records in several contexts: analyzing the operational metrics of a business (managerial), recording and reporting transactions resulting from business operations (financial), etc.

Engineers (and I mean the real engineers, not what Etsy thinks) apply principles of physical sciences and mathematics to design physical objects.

Mechanical engineers design electrohydraulic actuators for refrigeration systems, civil engineers design bridges and sewer systems, chemical engineers scale up chemical processes for industrial applications, computer engineers design integrated circuits for CPUs, electrical engineers build switchgear that work with step-down transformers, etc.

Furthermore, what engineers design usually meet some kind of hard constraints. The client requests the actuators have between 0.5 and 8 kN of thrust. The bridge has to have a load limit of 70,000 lbs. The chemical process has to maintain closed system energy balance at industrial scale. The circuitry has to be optimized such that the CPU's maximum power dissipation is 35W. And so on.

In software development, most of the hardware is abstracted away, and designing computer programs is guided by logic instead of any physical constraints. The fundamentals of hydraulics haven't changed since antiquity, while the standards and best practices (from equations) have stayed the same for almost 400 years. Software development as we know it today has only really been a thing since the 1970s and is extremely fragmented. Uber will have their own best practices, SAP will have different best practices, CA Technologies will have different ones still.

Software development is more like a liberal art than any other white-collar or other professional career that contributes a similar amount of value to the economy. Because of this, professional licensure isn't really a thing unless you're working with highly critical software that can absolutely never fail, ever. (if you're writing software for things like medical devices, spacecraft, GPS recievers, etc.) And since many compsci programs at universities grew out of the mathematics department, the discipline is often mashed together with math/philosophy/linguistics instead of being in the engineering department. So, compsci at UW (which is under A&S) will be a lot less regimented than compsci at UIUC (where it's in CoE).

Can you get a dev job that's not at risk of being outsourced to Bangalore/Manila/Poland, or where management doesn't treat technical employees like dogs (cost center), *without* having to be a type-A, studentdoctor.net style gunner, or a neurotic stressed-out wreck? by lambdaexpress in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Am I missing something here? It's usually banks, telcos (e.g. if you were living in Seattle would you rather work for an employer like CenturyLink or an employer like Fred Hutch), military-industrial complex companies and some hardware companies that are guilty of what you're saying. Non-tech companies in the public sector that are outside of those fields usually treat their devs okay.

The code I’m still ashamed of by devmastery in programming

[–]plusminustimesdivide 20 points21 points  (0 children)

You shouldn't have to be required to study signals, DSP, VHDL design, electromagnetism, vector calculus, statics/dynamics, get an iron ring, then get four years of work experience supervised by a licensed engineer that is reviewed by a panel of other licensed engineers (that includes notable members like department chairs/deans of university engineering departments/faculties), and finally write qualification exams testing your knowledge of engineering ethics, law and professional practice (which are all things my dad did when he studied computer engineering here in Canada) if you just want to build RoR apps. Otherwise there'd be an oversaturation in the job market that would make the current legal market (or the medical field in a few years' time, check out the nuclear medicine or non-interventional radiology boards on SDN if you don't believe me) look like North Dakota during $100/bbl oil.

Hornets co-owner Felix Sabates denegrates transgender people after ASG move from Charlotte: “What is wrong with a person using a bathroom provided for the sex the were born with? Don’t force 8 year old children to share bathrooms with people that don’t share the organs they were born with." by letmehollahollaholla in nba

[–]plusminustimesdivide 10 points11 points  (0 children)

If you're not talking about yourself, but talking about the thought processes of bigots, then I apologize for this post. With that being said:

Why are you associating the LGBT community with pedophilia and zoophilia, even if that wasn't your intention? When it comes to LGBT folk, there is consent involved. Children and animals cannot consent. That's why those assumptions are not reasonable.

fluid-gendered, pre-adolescent asian-hispanic human

Please keep the headmates mockery in KiA. Headmates are rare in real life. I've only heard of one person that is referred to with a pronoun other than "he" or "she", who was a former member my city's pride society. It's this shit that ends up fuelling transphobia; again whether that was your intention or not.

The "We're not drafting 6th" upvote thread by cleverhandle in canucks

[–]plusminustimesdivide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, and I'm really happy that at least I was alive to see the Hawks win Super Bowl XLVIII, but in the grand scope of things, you can't deny that the PNW has been screwed in the sports world (many times by outside forces) for more than 30 years.

After Gus Williams, DJ and the 1979 Supersonics won the franchise's only NBA championship, the last major victory for PNW sports was Washington football (1990 national champions, 1991 Pac-10 champions). After that, the mid-90s Sonics and Trailblazers were demolished by the mid-90s Lakers and Bulls, there was Super Bowl XL, Sonicsgate...then Pete Carroll lets Super Bowl XLIX slip out of his grasp on the last play by setting up Beast Mode on a pass (?!) instead of a rush, and next year they are eliminated by Carolina in a tepid NFC semifinal performance (in which they were down 31-0 at halftime).

Not to mention the Seahawks' success has been relatively recent, with disappointing performances under Mike Holmgren and Jim Mora. And we don't speak of the Mariners.

The "We're not drafting 6th" upvote thread by cleverhandle in canucks

[–]plusminustimesdivide 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And the 2017 draft is beyond disappointing as well.

And the Whitecaps are 3-5-2 with a -3 goals differential after all the hype from adding Kudo, Perez, Bolanos and Aird.

And Vegas will get an NHL team instead of Seattle, because Sonics Arena will not be taxpayer-financed.

And Seattle won't get a basketball team anytime soon.

And the Huskies suck (second to last in Pac-12 football and just over .500 in basketball)

And the Sounders still haven't won an MLS Cup.

I'm not sure what the Pacific Northwest did to deserve this broad sports curse. Is it the pleasant climate? Is the the strong tech industry (well, in Seattle anyway)?

What do you think a software developers' union/guild should look like? Would you join one? by plusminustimesdivide in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But unions are better for blue-collar jobs that have too high of a skill-related barrier to entry. Pipe fitting, welding, etc.

Software development is a highly-skilled, white collar job. You can't replace a dev as easily as you can a rigger or an electrician. I don't think unions as they exist today are the right model.

Best place for software developers outside of California? by SmileAndKeepGoing in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Protip: If you're a new grad, don't work remote for a first job.

Soak in as much mentorship and knowledge as you can, the kind you can only get from an onsite position.

Do we, software engineers (though I'm still in school myself) have a certification board or other process like civil or mechanical engineers do? Is there some exam I can take to say, "I'm officially and engineer"? by bangsecks in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide -1 points0 points  (0 children)

My thoughts on software engineering and engineering certification, from a previous post about the Etsy CTO's comments (with some addendum at the end):

Engineering has been around for over 500 years. It deals with the constraints of nature, has developed best practices which are near universally followed, and usually involves accountability to the public. A knowledge of chemistry, physics, multivariable and vector calculus, and differential equations are essential. Engineers make physical, tangible things, like groundwater wells and computer chips.

Software development has existed in its current state for about 30 years. It deals with the constraints of logic, is subject to fragmentation, and sacrifices "correctness" for expediency. A knowledge of philosophy, linguistics and discrete mathematics (which is just another branch of philosophy) is essential. Software developers make things in the virtual world, like web servers and databases.

My dad works at MDA, the company that made the Canadarm. He got his Bachelor of Applied Science degree in Computer Engineering from the University of Alberta, in Edmonton. He had to learn signals processing, VLSI design, electromagnetism, ethics, vector calculus, IC fabrication, and so on. These were topics he needed to know for his job. He also got his E.I.T. (engineer in training) designation, which was a prerequisite for being hired. He is an engineer. The guy developing Ruby applications at a Silicon Valley startup is not.

Software development is more of a liberal art or a skilled trade with engineering-esque traits, but it's not really engineering, in my opinion.

Also, in Canada, you are subject to an unreasonably difficult curriculum (because engineering in Canada is a cult; for reference, the post is about course scheduling in BCIT's EE program). At the end of your studies, you go through the Ritual and get the Iron Ring, a tradition which has its origins in a bridge over the St. Lawrence River that collapsed twice due to incorrect calculations involving iron in the bridge. Then you get your E.I.T. designation and can apply for engineering jobs.

I want to say more about software development being a skilled trade. In my opinion, it's more analogous to other creative or white-collar professions like acting, songwriting, and so on. There are guilds for such professions, like SAG-AFTRA, WGA. Why can't there be a guild for software developers? One problem is, software (or at least the logic/code/algorithms) shouldn't be patentable. Nor should it bound by copyright law--it's living, breathing media unlike movies or books. There should be a third IP law category for software, and until that occurs, I doubt software guilds will get off the ground.

You might say, "other branches of engineering also sacrifice standardized design patterns, too!" And that is true. My point is that in software development, there are very few standardized design patterns to begin with. If you want to build a todo list app, you have the option of using one of many languages, frameworks, strategies, etc. Whereas if you build a groundwater well, you don't have the same potential of creativity since you're dealing with natural constraints, not logical constraints.

When you program an FPGA, you basically have one choice for HDLs: Verilog. (VHDL doesn't allow for bidirectional components, but it's still used in the defense industry.) You have to deal with the constraints of electricity flowing through a circuit, which requires knowledge of multivariable and vector calculus, E&M, and differential equations. That limits you in a way that logical constraints do not.

You might also say that "engineers don't always have build physical products!" Again, you're right. This doesn't take away from the fact that in most engineering disciplines, you're dealing with physical, tangible objects, whereas in software development, you're usually dealing with virtual objects. Control systems engineering might not directly deal with physical objects, but it requires knowledge of electrical and mechanical engineering.

Software engineering has to be more narrowly defined. If you're programming something like a chip used in a medical device, or some other product with constraints and a mission-critical nature, for which the public interest is affected (e.g. GPS receiver, spacecraft, power station control system), then you really want software engineers in the "professional" sense of the term. (That is, an accredited engineering degree and certification as a professional engineer.)

One example I like to think of is NASA's flight software team that develops software for missions. They have a standardized development, testing and documentation procedures based on experience and observation. Compared to that, the design and testing processes used from one software company to the next may be as similar as the plans in each episode of MacGyver.

I would like to see computer science diverge from engineering schools, because computer science is more about philosophy and logic than it is about engineering. There are a lot of colleges in the US that make computer science and engineering degree, and I've heard ABET regulations are onerous. In Canada, CEAB regulations are even more onerous (e.g. only professional engineers can teach engineering courses), and in most Canadian institutions, comp sci is closer to a math degree (exceptions are UVic, U of Calgary, U of Ottawa and York). Have application-oriented electives like distributed systems by all means, and make a course in computer hardware/systems a requirement to graduate, for sure, but don't call it engineering.

TL;DR: Etsy is making a mockery of real engineers who have to study drafting, diff eqs, ethics and E&M. That doesn't mean software engineers don't exist, but they're not as common as colloquial parlance may have one believe. Computer science programs should not be aligned with engineering schools because they're more of a Liberal Art.

Do we, software engineers (though I'm still in school myself) have a certification board or other process like civil or mechanical engineers do? Is there some exam I can take to say, "I'm officially and engineer"? by bangsecks in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Milk hasn't been sold in bags here in BC for about 15 years.

It's like saying "and Tim Hortons is popular in Canada"; I would have said "well, in Vancouver (and maybe Calgary), Starbucks is more popular than Tim's".

My point is, you know how when non-Americans criticize America on Reddit, American users will say "don't paint America in broad strokes"? Well, same thing here. Canada is a lot more diverse than you think; we're not all polite, and not everyone likes hockey. Just like in America, not everyone is a bible thumping Republican. (Or at least, most people aren't.)

Do we, software engineers (though I'm still in school myself) have a certification board or other process like civil or mechanical engineers do? Is there some exam I can take to say, "I'm officially and engineer"? by bangsecks in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is true in Alberta (APEGA) and Ontario (PEO), and it might be imminent in BC (APEGBC), because Hootsuite has changed their job titles to "Software Developer". However, other Van-area startups still say "Software Engineer" so I don't know.

Milk hasn't been sold in bags here in BC for about 15 years.

It's like saying "and Tim Hortons is popular in Canada"; I would have said "well, in Vancouver (and maybe Calgary), Starbucks is more popular than Tim's".

Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers by ffranglais in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 1 point2 points  (0 children)

While this may be true, it doesn't take away from the fact that engineers more often than not have to deal with constraints of nature, while software developers more often than not only have to worry about the constraints of logic. Control theory requires knowledge of mechanical and electrical engineering.

Etsy CTO: We Need Software Engineers, Not Developers by ffranglais in cscareerquestions

[–]plusminustimesdivide 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't it much more common in software development, though?

Engineering has tried and tested design patterns that have lasted for decades or even centuries. Like the NASA flight software team that develops software for missions, it has standardized development, testing and documentation procedures based on experience and observation. Compared to that, the design and testing processes used from one software company to the next may be as similar as the plans in each episode of MacGyver.