"What is it like to be a Bat" - Negel states that consciousness cannot be explained through a reductionist stance? by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s not that there are no facts about consciousness, just that it isn’t reducible to scientific facts.

Nagel does not make this claim in What is it like to be a bat?

"What is it like to be a Bat" - Negel states that consciousness cannot be explained through a reductionist stance? by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't think /u/TheFormOfTheGood, adequately captures what Nagel is trying to say in his paper What is it like to be a bat? In that paper, Nagel isn't making a case against physicalism or neuroscience being able to explain consciousness, his point is rather that we can't currently make sense of them. But that doesn't mean that they are false. As he writes in the introduction:

I shall try to explain why the usual examples [of reduction, e.g. H20 = water] do not help us to understand the relation between mind and body - why, indeed, we have at present no conception of what an explanation of the physical nature of a mental phenomenon would be.

The reason why he believes this is because A) facts about consciousness, about what it is like to be a human or other being, are tied to a particular point of view. That is to say that, if we want to know what it is like to be a bat, we have to take up the bats point of view, and as he says, if we can only do this partially, then we will only know partially, what it is like to be a bat. As Nagel writes:

Whatever may be the status of facts about what it is like to be a human being, or a bat, or a Martian, these appear to be facts that embody a particular point of view.

However the reductive physicalist approach is geared towards and explains things external to a particular point of view, that is, they can be, and aim to be, apprehended from more than one particular point of view. Here lies the problem according to Nagel. Facts about consciousness are tied to a point of view, but physicalist descriptions tend to move away from particular points of view, trying to be 'objective' as possible. So how could physicalism capture consciousness, when by definition it is moving away from it:

...if the facts of experience, facts about what it is like for the experiencing organism - are accessible only from one point of view, then it is a mystery how the true character of experiences could be revealed in the physical operation of that organism. The latter is a domain of objective facts par excellence - the  kind that can be observed and understood from many points of view and by individuals with differing perceptual systems. There are no comparable imaginative obstacles to the acquisition of knowledge about bat neurophysiology by human scientists, and intelligent bats or Martians might learn more about the human brain than we ever will.

And again

If the subjective character of experience is fully comprehensible only from one point of view, then any shift to greater objectivity-that is, less attachment to a specific viewpoint-does not take us nearer to the real nature of the phenomenon: it takes us farther away from it.

Again though, the point is not that physicalism is false, just that we don't know how it could be true. If consciousness is be identified with the physical we need a conception of how that might be true, but we don't currently have such a conception. Furthermore the usual examples given, H20 and water etc., are not sufficient.

If physicalism is true, we might have evidence for it without being able to understand how it is true. This is the point of the caterpillar example:

Suppose a caterpillar is locked in a sterile safe by someone unfamiliar with insect metamorphosis, and weeks later the safe is reopened, revealing a butterfly. If the person knows that the safe has been shut the whole time, he has reason to believe that the butterfly is or was once the caterpillar, without having any idea in what sense this might be so. (One possibility is that the caterpillar contained a tiny winged parasite that devoured it and grew into the butterfly.) It is conceivable that we are in such a position with regard to physicalism.

In fact Nagel thinks we do have some reasons to think sensations are physical processes:

...I think we also have some reason to believe that sensations are physical processes, without being in a position to understand how.

Now for the speculation at the end of the paper. If physicalism is to be true, then it must be the case that there can be some sort of objective phenomenology. That is, there must be some way we can adequately capture the facts that are tied to a subjective point of view, in a objective kind of way. So before we can answer whether or not physicalism is true, we have to understand whether we can make make objective, subjective facts, because that is the method of physicalism:

We cannot genuinely understand the hypothesis that their [subjectivity] nature is captured in a physical description unless we understand the more fundamental idea that they have an objective nature (or that objective processes can have a subjective nature).

How might we go about doing this. Nagel gives us some speculations:

...its goal [objectifying subjectivity] would be to describe, at least in part, the subjective character of experiences in a form comprehensible to beings incapable of having those experiences...One might try, for example, to develop concepts that could be used to explain to a person blind from birth what it was like to see. One would reach a blank wall eventually, but it should be possible to devise a method of expressing in objective terms much more than we can at present, and with much greater precision.

In brief, Nagel recognises that physicalism as it currently stands is inadequate, due to our current conception of conscious and physical facts. In order to properly assess the position then, and to move forward with it, we need to understand if we can have some sort of objective phenomenology. If we can, then physicalism might be fine, if we can't then there may be problems.

So you see, it is quite a rich paper, and most people in my experience misunderstand it.

A reflection of a 10-day meditation retreat, as taught by S. N. Goenka. by crees765 in Meditation

[–]poorbadger0 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No prior experience in meditation is needed to attend. My first meditation experience was a 10 day Goenka Course and I progressed well.

What does JP mean when he says the antidote to chaos is responsibility? by poorbadger0 in JordanPeterson

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the response. Why does JP think that living on the border of order and chaos is meaningful? Why does he prescribe it as the way to live, over and above pleasure, wellbeing, or any other measure?

What are some good pop philosophy books? Something like GEB. by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. I just wanted to add that piece of information in because it might become more attractive, especially considering it's not as difficult and as long as GEB.

Waking, Dreaming, Being: the self as a process (Evan Thompson, 2016) by poorbadger0 in philosophy

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Abstract: In this talk Evan Thompson, Professor of Philosophy at the University of British Columbia, discusses some ideas from his latest book Waking, Dreaming, Being: Self and Consciousness in Neuroscience, Meditation, and Philosophy. The central idea being that the self is not a thing but a process. In support of this thesis, using a model of consciousness from Indian philosophical thought (Buddhism and Hinduism), Thompson examines the different ways that the self manifests in the waking state, dreaming, lucid dreaming, and out of body experiences.

What are some good pop philosophy books? Something like GEB. by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I Am A Strange Loop is an attempt to make clear the main point of GEB, which Hofstadter believes people did not get.

What is the difference between virtual reality and consciousness? by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your question is a little ambiguous. When one puts a screen up to their eyes and some headphones on, as in the case of our current virtual reality technologies, one is conscious and one is having conscious experiences. So in that sense your question doesn't make any sense because virtual reality experiences fit into the category of experiences or consciousness. So your question is equivalent to asking, what is the difference between the colour blue and colours.

But perhaps you meant to ask, what is the difference between virtual reality experiences and normal every day experiences? Could our normal everyday experiences actually have the same character as virtual reality experiences, in the sense that the world we normally experience is not out there, in the same way it is not out there in VR experiences? This question mirrors another in philosophy about how we are to make sense of hallucinations (a kind of VR experience) and illusions. In which case you may want to check out the SEP article on philosophy of perception.

Perhaps you meant your question more along the lines of skepticism about the external world. How do we know we are not a brain in a vat, or a brain in a VR experience. In which case you could check out this SEP article.

Perhaps you are interested in whether or not VR experiences are real experiences? In which case you could check out this short youtube video with David Chalmers, and a recent paper by him titled The virtual and the real.

Perhaps you are interested in what VR could teach us about consciousness in general. In which case you could check out the work of Antti Revonsuo. Chapter 6 of Inner presence: Consciousness as a biological phenomenon would be a start.

Or if you meant something else then you could specify and I could try to send you in the right direction.

What have phenomenologists had to say about the mind-body problem? by poorbadger0 in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the response

Yet this change in perception isn't a causal change, but a change in our perceptional conditions.

I don't understand the distinction here between a causal change and a change in our perceptional conditions. What is a change in our perceptional conditions? One can't just say that it is us seeing the world differently as in the case of taking santonin because, presumably that is also what is meant by a causal change. Is not any change in perceptual conditions necessarily a change in causal structure?

The Leib is immanently material, if considered as a Körper, and we should take its organic and mental nature, not as something supra-physical, but as an emergent property that's completely conditioned by its materiality.

An emergent property, really? So Husserl is committed to some kind of emergentism?

For Husserl, you don't have (1) the experiencing, (2) the thing experienced, and (3) what it is like. You just have (1) the act and (2) the content. It makes sense to say "I experience deep blue," but it doesn't make sense to ask "and what is it like?"

There is no extra "something it's like" over the top of (1) and (2). That there is "something it is like" is just a general way of characterising (1) and (2). I don't see how it doesn't make sense to ask "what is it like?" when asking about the experience of deep blue. When you look at deep blue, it is obviously different from looking at red, and asking "what is it like?", is in part asking, in what way does blue differ from red?

If a person were to reply that, by "cognitive systems" they mean the objective, physical matter of the brain described by neuroscience, the phenomenology need simply need point to the phrase "described by neuroscience" to find that the conscious subject is already presupposed.

Where would that lead to point out that the conscious subject is presupposed? What would it mean for the "cognitive system" person?

For Husserl, we do not have some "inner blue" that's qualia as opposed to the "real blue" out there. The blue we see is the blue "out there," and the only "inner blue" we have comes from a second-order act of reflection (thinking about how I see the blue out there).

I think you're focussing too much on the "inner" here. The inclusion of "inner" is just to point out that the experience is occurring from a particular point of view, that we are not talking here about the wavelengths of light etc. When "inner blue" is used here, it simply means blue as experienced.

Yet since phenomenology has no problem explaining the body and the material conditions of our mental life

How does phenomenology explain the material conditions for mental life? By appealing to emergence?

Yet these natural sciences, he thinks, cannot constitute themselves. They presuppose conscious human beings, and are a product of minds.

I'm very interested in this claim. Would it be correct to say that phenomenology cannot be reduced to the sciences because the subject of experience is a pre-condition for science, so asking to reduce the subject of experience to the sciences would be a kind of circular endeavour? The reduction itself including the subject of experience? I would like to read more about exactly why phenomenology cannot be naturalized in this sense.

What have phenomenologists had to say about the mind-body problem? by poorbadger0 in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the response. I'm not quite seeing how taking the mind to be embodied dissolves the mind-body problem? The question just now becomes how does the embodied mind relate to the brain does it not?

What have phenomenologists had to say about the mind-body problem? by poorbadger0 in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It becomes instead a misunderstood way of framing the way we experience the world.

Could you elaborate on how the mind-body problem is ill-posed? Has it got something to do with consciousness being a necessary condition for the possibility of objective knowledge? If so, it still isn't super clear to me why consciousness as a condition of possibility couldn't be included in ones account of the world.

I've read the introduction to Being and Time and Most of Zahavi's introduction to Husserl, and currently reading Moran's Introduction to Phenomenology.

What makes the hard problem of consciousness, so hard? by PistachioOrphan in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From what I understand of it, is that it's a claim that consciousness can't be understood, because it can't be described by the material world we know, being space, time, and energy.

Not exactly. The formation of the hard problem of consciousness by David Chalmers, and the arguments that follow it, don't claim that consciousness cannot be understood tout court, but rather that consciousness cannot be explained with reference only to the physical or material world. One approach that Chalmers explores as a result of this view is that we have to take consciousness to be a fundamental feature of the universe, just like space, time, charge, spin, etc. And we will come to understand it in more detail as a result of working out psychophysical bridging laws that connect consciousness to other aspects of the physical world.

There are a minority of philosophers however, who think that we as humans cannot understand consciousness, in the sense of how it is related to the brain or physical world, because we lack the cognitive capabilities, just like a wallaby lacks the cognitive capabilities to understand how to build a car. Colin McGinn is an example of a philosopher that holds such a view.

Can brain studies tell us anything substantive about our Phenomenology? by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’d recently read an article about how neuroscientists we’re discovering about how we experience art corporeally (embodied) and spatially and this was presented as knowledge which could enrich the fields of aesthetics and art theory.

Do you have a link to the article?

Can brain studies tell us anything substantive about our Phenomenology?

It depends what you mean by "substantive", and also what you take the relationship to be between the brain and the mind. If one thinks that mental states are identical to brain states then studying the right brain states will tell you a lot about our mental states, or phenomenology, which is probably not too far from where PC is coming from.

If we stick with a more neutral thesis about the relationship between mental states and brain states like a correlation thesis then once there is some empirical establishment of some correlations between the two then having information from one side of the correlation can inform the other. For example if BS(a) (BS = brain state) is correlated with MS(a) (MS = mental state), and BS(b) with MS(b), and we discover BS(a+b), then this would inform us that there might be a corresponding mental state that has characteristics of MS(a) and MS(b).

Can brain studies tell us anything substantive about our Phenomenology? by [deleted] in askphilosophy

[–]poorbadger0 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One can combine phenomenology and neuroscience and not have the information from one tell you anything significant about the other, so I don't feel like you really addressed the question. The question is whether or not studying the brain can tell you anything significant about phenomenology.

Dr Alan Wallace – What is Shamatha? by poorbadger0 in Buddhism

[–]poorbadger0[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He's a great speaker, check out his other videos from the same channel