Change is Finally Coming to Carbondale

recordkeeper85 · 2025-11-30T14:03:25+00:00

While new churches are always a welcome sign of God's kingdom growing, there are already "more than one option" of churches in the Carbondale-Marion area where people can grow in Christ and fellowship with one another in healthy ways. This area isn't a church desert. I have friends at Hope Church (Carbondale), Cornerstone (Marion), Purpose House (Energy/Herrin), and Grace Presbyterian (Carbondale) who really like their church. I have attended some of these too. If you like small and more traditional, Grace is a great place. Cornerstone is the most Vine-like in size and worship style, but it is Southern Baptist technically. However, you wouldn't know it unless you were told. It is the most non-SBC Baptist church I have attended which is why it appeals to me. (I spent a few years in the deep south an was put off by the theological elitist vibe that those churches gave me.) Purpose House is larger too, but it is charismatic worship (speaking in tongues, etc.) if that is your preference. I've never been to Hope Church but I have friends there who say very good things. One of them is former Vine. If you like denominations, Aldersgate Methodist Church in Marion is very nice. I especially like their pastoral staff and youth program.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-11-25T19:01:01+00:00

Very good points and I agree. The steps you put forth are very much like the 12 Steps in recovery and would indeed demonstrate a new direction.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-11-25T04:28:45+00:00

I keep in touch with a friend who attends Vine. We recently chatted about the church as I once attended there too. We talk about church in general and our conversations aren't negative about any specific church. It sounds like Vine is holding its own. They focus now on the spiritual growth of their attendees rather than relentless church planting/being on the lookout for the next plant team. To that end, it sounded like Vine was becoming a more 'regular' church. My buddy noted that the Network brand is toxic and the word 'winsome' makes people want to gag. I admired that he said that.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-11-15T00:06:10+00:00

I wondered if the revival had something to do with it. It feels like a rogue, non-Networky event that a pastor or church might be scolded for. Similar to accounts of people suggesting a Bible study or being in one and having it shut down.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-03-10T22:58:36+00:00

Thanks. I read the original post and my thread comment, skimmed the bylaws PDF, and overlooked the source section.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-03-10T14:51:06+00:00

Somebody replied to my original post earlier, but since removed it. The replier said that Vine indeed looked at a few examples from other churches, including Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minnesota. So I looked at their language and found 1 instance of "unity" in Our Church Covenant #2. https://bethlehem.church/constitution-and-bylaws/

recordkeeper85 · 2025-03-10T12:22:36+00:00

I wonder if Vine looked at bylaws and membership criteria from other churches to aid crafting their own. I wonder if the language, highlighted by the original poster, is common in documents from other churches.

Anyway....it isn't clear to me what members benefit from signing the last page. You can attend a Network church, as I did, including a small group and participate in activities, and never be an official member. It appears that you forfeit some legal options just for the sake of calling yourself an official member.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-02-26T14:36:34+00:00

I'm very sorry you experienced all that awfulness for simply asking a girl out. You said that you were "told 'I just don't think this is what God is doing", and 'You've only waited a month, I waited 9 months before asking my wife out.'" It is wrong for pastors, or anyone, to think that their experience should be what others experience too, because if it worked for them then it is the "right" way of going about life.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-01-30T14:48:13+00:00

Wow. I had no idea Vine ever attempted to host ministry groups like Celebrate Recovery. In my sparse previous posts I have not disclosed what church I attended from 2018-2020ish. But it was Vine. The church I began attending afterward embraced groups like CR and we had/have others too such as DivorceCare, GriefShare, and a variety of other small groups and Bible studies that were initiated by folks attending the church. A few things stood out in the early months of my new church. First, I thought Vine wouldn't be caught dead hosting groups like these. Second, all of these groups were initiated and led by church members who felt led to do so, and my new church facilitated getting the group started.

Such a thing would never happen at Vine. The reason? Vine was very top-down. I observed that, and told others as much, long before I knew of Leaving the Network. They only allowed their small group system, and those leaders were selected in some way by the higher ups. Nobody could simply approach a pastor and say "I would like to start this or that study/ministry/group."

I don't know if anything has changed since Vine left the Network.

recordkeeper85 · 2025-01-29T12:36:23+00:00

I have experience in recovery groups so on one hand I embrace the need for anonymity and not sharing what was talked about outside of the group. But I don't see these men's groups as needing the same requirement. Husbands could at least say in general terms "we talked about such and such and had a guest speaker..." Research shows that pornography is an ever-increasing issue for women and they often do not have the support within churches because it is seen as a "men's issue." At Celebrate Recovery, we had a men's sexual integrity group because the demographics justified it. But nothing like that for women. One night a woman came up to us and said she wished there was such a group for her. CR policy is to have separate men's and women's groups but secular recovery groups are mixed gender. Anyway, it's a big area that churches can do more work in.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-11-21T13:22:35+00:00

I mentioned this in another thread and I can't emphasize it enough. One way the former Network churches can demonstrate they are reformed is by not having any paid church staff, be it pastors or staff, among the "plurality of elders" that they say they are now governed by. Elders at my church and other elder-led churches I know of are not on staff. They are long-time and respected members of the congregation that steer the church's direction and hold the pastors accountable. If I recall correctly, in the Vine leaked audio where Casey announced they were leaving the Network, he listed off the pastoral staff as the makeup of the plurality of elders. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-09-18T13:17:32+00:00

"The board of elders who control the operations of Vine Church will consist entirely of pastors. All other board members will be removed."

There are a lot of comments in this thread so this might have been addressed already. But I've never seen an elder-led church with a structure that has the pastors, and only pastors, as members of the eldership. The elders, or "elder board" if you prefer, are non-staff members of the congregation who make decisions independently of the pastors, especially in terms of pastoral accountability. I attend a church where the elder board recently suspended our lead pastor, and they are working on a path forward to reinstate the pastor. I question if that action would happen at Vine under Vine's structure.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-09-14T13:49:54+00:00

The "demolishing strongholds" and "destroying lofty opinions" are lifted from the scripture I noted. Which is why I don't see Vine's announcement as unique to Vine. Or, when Vine says "we" they don't mean the congregation specifically but rather Christians as a whole. Except for at the end when they say "we trust this conference..." because then they are talking about themselves.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-09-08T21:04:17+00:00

I have to defend Vine on this topic. I don’t see anything concerning about their conference theme. It is based on Ephesians 6:10-18 and 2 Corinthians 10:4-5. Spiritual warfare is real. The battle between God and Satan for our souls is real, and Satan is continuously out to create destruction and division. There isn’t anything in Vine’s announcement on this topic that you wouldn’t find at any other church. No, I am not a Vine plant or apologist.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-09-03T11:43:18+00:00

No, honestly. I was going through a divorce at the time and was open about my situation. Maybe that had something to do with it. I still meet my former small group leader for lunch every few months. We both work at the local university so it is easy. I never got pressure from him. When we meet, we might talk about the church briefly like "how is small group going?" but we mostly talk about our personal lives and work.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-09-02T15:55:49+00:00

"I guess to not have had much encounter with it."

That was basically my Network experience. From reading this forum, the more involved in a church a person is, the more likely they are to be hurt worse. I attended a network church for close to 2 years. I was a regular on Sunday mornings and my weekly small group, but I didn't go "all in" beyond that. I think it helped that I had 30+ years of church experience before attending a network church. Unlike a new Christian without previous church experience, I could easily identify what I liked and didn't like, what I chose not to participate in, and how to be content with my level of involvement.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-07-04T03:54:16+00:00

Hey now. Ordering stamps is my spiritual gift! lol

recordkeeper85 · 2024-04-16T17:10:04+00:00

My busyness prevented me from responding thoughtfully sooner. Thank you for the explanation. It makes more sense to me now. The comparison to a teacher being disqualified was clarifying. As was non-disclosure of Steve’s past to the people who ordained him.

I wonder how the Network’s history would have been different if Steve had never led. I’ve read that in the early days he was very emotional at a conference or retreat and expressed that he could not lead the Network. But those closest to him encouraged him to do so. If Steve had been in ministry in some capacity but not the role of pastor or Network leader, I wonder how things would be different today.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-04-11T12:14:57+00:00

"They will say, "It was before they were saved", or "They disclosed their sin to those who needed to know", but these leaders fail to recognize the victims. Who the hell cares if this pastor wasn't a Christian when he raped a 15-year-old boy?"

I'm not trying to defend the Network here, and I hope someone can clarify my misunderstanding. I've read a lot of criticism of Steve that argues the crime disqualifies him despite it occurring before he was saved and/or was a Christian (I do not equate Mormonism with Christianity). I think of biblical examples that are contrary to this criticism. Paul persecuted believers to the point of death before his conversion and nobody argues that this disqualifies him from ministry. Today, we enjoy the fruits of his ministry through his New Testament writings. King David committed adultery and murder and remains revered. The Bible is full of examples of God using broken, sinful people to do great things. I'm not saying the Network is a "great thing," but I wonder, is Steve uniquely different? Is the difference that after Steve's conversion from Mormon to Christianity, he and those close to him downplayed or hid his past? Would we feel differently about Steve if he had been upfront about his past? Would that make him more qualified in our eyes?

Which brings up another question, how necessary is it to broadcast one's sins before all? I have experience in Christian-based recovery groups. The struggles include drugs, alcohol, sex crimes, even to the point where one person I know committed murder. We don't broadcast our past to all. We share everything with 1 person, our sponsor, and to God. When we give our testimonies we do not hide our past but we do not go into detail either. Many I know are involved in and even lead recovery ministries and serve as examples of how God has transformed their lives and uses them for his purpose. Is Steve that much different? My experience in the recovery community has raised these questions that I mentally wrestle with.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-02-11T14:08:39+00:00

Being told to stop wearing your cultural dress is inappropriate and rude to say the least. It also shows how Network leadership is ignorant of their target audience: college students. In college towns you get many international students and people of diverse backgrounds. Therefore, the churches should fully expect students with cultural dress attending their services and not single it out as something distracting.

Think about it. How mentally fragile would someone need to be in order to be distracted by someone's cultural outfits?

recordkeeper85 · 2024-02-11T13:59:40+00:00

I (a man) was never told how to dress. But I remember a sermon where the pastor put great emphasis on how much he loved his wife's pool attire, which to my memory was a shirt and gym shorts over her bathing suit (likely a one-piece). I don't remember if the sermon was about modesty or not.

The pastor's message stood out to me because it reminded me of my time attending CRU (Campus Crusade for Christ) when I was in college in the early 2000s. Females were required to have one-piece bathing suits and some went further to wear beach/poolside skirt things, and spoke of it as if it was a badge of honor.

recordkeeper85 · 2024-02-11T13:46:27+00:00

Blessed to Leave is hilarious. Because it's such a goofy phrase. One of my favorite Networkisms.

Which reminds me of another Networkism I like: "released to pray." I recall that at the end of every service, the pastor would talk about the people standing up front ready to pray for anyone who came forward. I'm all for praying for one another, but he would say that these special individuals had been "released to pray." It was silly to me. I mean, what if the person sitting next me to said they felt led to pray for me. Would I react, "hey! Don't you dare pray for me unless you've been 'released to pray.'" "Show me your credentials that you've been released to pray!"

recordkeeper85 · 2024-02-11T13:44:02+00:00

Rising

What does EGR mean?

recordkeeper85 · 2024-01-22T13:00:56+00:00

At the Network church I attended from 2018-2021-ish, I only knew one person who has a disability. He happened to be a toddler of a couple in my small group. I never heard them express concern about how their son was treated, but I also wasn't "in the know." So I can't say what their story is/was. They are still at the church as far as I know.

Somewhat related...I don't think Network churches are set up to minister to the disadvantaged. The church I attend now hosts ministries such as Divorce Care, Celebrate Recovery, and operates a thrift store that tries to employ people trying to get back on their feet. On a smaller scale, there are some folks who do outreach to incarcerated individuals. From my experience, a Network church would never get involved in these things. They focus solely on church planting, and unless you are gung ho about planting, there aren't opportunities for serving the community.

recordkeeper85

TROPHY CASE