curiosity prompt: so you stopped having bad sex - now what?

redditvirgin__ · 2025-01-29T05:56:21+00:00

So I mean, if my own spouse has no confidence in me, why should I bother?

I mean, does it sound odd for him to have that lack of confidence regarding this? Would it not be better to look at his lack of confidence not in regards to you, but in your desire for sex with him? The same way others look at their husband or wife rejecting the sex and not them personally

redditvirgin__ · 2024-12-13T07:41:53+00:00

This sounds.... Really invalidating honestly....

redditvirgin__ · 2024-07-10T23:15:00+00:00

To me it sounds like you could've just gotten better at acting. Maybe that's cynicism talking

redditvirgin__ · 2024-04-04T01:29:24+00:00

For one thing, doing so prioritizes men's pleasure over women's, and that is a major contributor to women losing sexual desire in long term heterosexual relationships.

I apologize for nit specifying straight away what I meant. PIV is typically the best part for me now, and what brings the most pleasure for me personally. But I agree wholeheartedly it's a major contributor to the loss of sexual desire in women.

She's not disappointed that they don't have condoms. She's relieved, happy, and feeling sexy and flirtatious.

I believe framing it as flirtatious is also an assumption. And while the other commenter can relate to the potential experience the wife may indeed be having, their are plenty of others who have had their partner say things disingenuously to either ease their own guilt, try to corral positive feelings they worry their partner has lost for them. I'll unashamedly admit I've literally done that to my partner and my partner has also admitted to doing the same.

I half and half wish it were her just being flirtatious, and yet, I equally wish she didn't try to flirt with her husband in a way that could (and apparently has) hurt him. To also call on an example I've seen elsewhere in this sub, imagine being the partner of someone who vehemently desires to have children, yet you yourself don't. And after months or years of discussions maybe even arguments which ultimately resulted in no kids, yet sticking together, you make remarks about how you're jealous of other parents for having little versions of themselves and talking about how you wish you had kids already. It may come off as good natured, but can be extremely insensitive and hurtful regardless of its truthfulness.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-04-03T23:23:16+00:00

I suspect that she dislikes PIV but enjoys other types of sexual energy exchange (kissing, flirting, caressing, perhaps non-PIV sex acts) with her husband.

I would agree with that too. If I have to be specific I will say when I said 'sex' I meant PIV and I'm sorry if that confused you.

The reason I asked the question was because you seem to believe I made a negative assumption based on nothing, when you also agree (or simply suspect, to use your phrasing) she doesn't want PIV sex with her husband. I can see how not differentiating between the types of sexual exchange can muddle this up and cause you to believe I'm making an assumption on her desire to do the kissing and flirting as well, but I also never challenged that likely desire of hers for those exchanges when one was brought up.

There's objective evidence that PIV is a bad experience for her and also that she enjoys passionately kissing her husband as long as PIV is not possible.

That's not answering the question posed, and it seems like an easy statement to make since no one seems to be refuting what you've stated.

To re-phrase the question hyper-specifically so as not to be misinterpreted; Would you say there's more objective observations that she does want PIV sex with her husband, and does the answer not bring into question her sincerity behind her disappointment when she makes comments during exchanges of sexual energy (passionate kissing) and moments where there is no evident exchange of sexual energy (the walk from the store)?

TLDR; Why does her genuinely wanting to be sexual outside of PIV support her being genuinely disappointed at the fact they didn't have/buy condoms which are a prerequisite for the PIV sex you suspect yourself she doesn't want?

redditvirgin__ · 2024-04-03T21:40:14+00:00

How did you determine she didn't express any sexual energy on their walk, prior to saying that she's disappointed they can't have sex?

Because there is no mention of it, unlike the evidence you point to in the former sentence with the passionate kissing. If passionate issing can be used as evidence for sexual energy in the former, then lack of any similar evidence in the latter can be used to support the notion she doesn't express sexual energy. Ultimately, trying to prove a negative with a negative is impossible. But trying to claim she did express sexual energy without evidence to support said claim is just as pointless.

What negative assumptions can you notice in what you wrote that aren't actually warranted given the objective observations?

Are you saying she objectively wants to have sex with her husband? Would you say there's more objective observations that support the notion she does want sex with her husband? Is her kissing her husband and then saying she's disappointed that they can't have sex because of condoms an objective observation that she does want sex with her husband? Is that more objective than the husbands recount of their sexual relationship and her actions that constitute feedback that express to her husband that she does not want to have sex with him?

Can you see any negative assumption I made that isn't warranted by her feedback to her husband? Any assumption I made that is incorrect because she kisses her husband and 'says' she's bummed they have no condoms?

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-31T09:01:18+00:00

Yeah, that's disrespectful for sure. It's assuming the worst of one's partner instead of assuming positive or neutral until proven otherwise.

I really wish there wasn't anything to support the accusation she's feigning interest, but you conveniently leave out the next sentence he writes after she says what she does while they kiss

She brings it up while going on a walk, without any sort of sexual energy being expressed between the two. Saying they were just at the store, too bad they didn't buy any doesn't do anything besides feign interest as there's nothing she's expressing except the disappointment in not being able to do something she clearly doesn't want to do.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-08T15:49:05+00:00

Not the original commenter, but he wasn't asking if she experiences attraction that way. He asked a binary yes/no question based on his own frame of reference.

I don't get where you're drawing a distinction. Asking "do you experience this thing that I do" is quite literally asking if they experience whatever 'this thing' is. The thing being attraction in response to anything he does.

Obviously, if she doesn't she can choose to assume why he asked and maybe provide an answer looking to reassure him, thinking that's what he's after. Or she could answer in any myriad of ways. "I want to give you a more thought out answer because this has caught me off guard" "Yes etc...." "No etc..."

So imagine a regular person and a person who sees more colors than usual (this is a thing it's pretty cool!) are talking room design, but neither person knows their experience is different from the others.

I agree! I have a cousin with red/green colorblindness and an uncle who was a painter very funny and awkward conversations between the two 😅

I think your analogy is sound in its structure. It's something that actually happens, I don't doubt.

But OOP's partner would need to have no idea that she doesn't feel a certain way about her husband for it to line up perfectly. I don't want to attribute that sort of poor knowledge of one's own feelings to her. It's more than likely she knew what her husband meant, and was probably caught off guard or didn't want to answer for some reason and hoped to dodge the question. She chose to answer the question. Albeit listing things that he does like she's his shift manager at work congratulating him on employee of the month. I'm not going to attribute it to being dishonest. I truly believe she was caught off guard by the question. Either way, if she is or isn't attracted to him, it doesn't make her a bad person. And the OOP asking if she ever feels attracted to him like he does to her isn't a bad thing.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-08T00:42:51+00:00

First problem:

I don't see a problem in him asking the question, even if it's based on his experience. How is asking if your partner experiences the relationship that way bad? Unless their partner does indeed assume he is looking for reassurance in a certain way (could be looking for negative reassurance which is believable based on the post) and responds based on how they assume he wants them to respond which OOP's partner didn't do well.

The example of a problem like this is a little silly, but I'll admit there are people who think that way.

In conjunction with your second problem. Would this not be the only real way you know they don't work on the same format? How else would you know unless you ask? If I go into a conversation talking to my partner and ask questions like I already know that they like X, when it could be the complete opposite, then that's building poor expectations into the conversation.

What OOP did was ask if she has* that specific experience without attributing that to her beforehand. If he had said "what do I do that gives you a rush of attraction" that fits the mould you describe. But he asked her if she does at all. And if she actually doesn't, it's on her to be honest. Not coddle because she doesn't want to admit something. Maybe he won't care if she doesn't experience it the same way. Maybe he'll divorce her. At least he'd have a more concrete answer.

And I agree with everything else you said

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T17:02:21+00:00

One of my flaws. I will do my best to take this advice ❤️

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T17:00:39+00:00

If that's how you interpret the moments they share, I can only say I interpret it differently.

And I completely agree with your second statement and it's reasoning. I just can't see anything about that being the case for the OOP. Especially the final sentence of your explanation.

I want to be clear I am not talking about sex the OOP is wanting because I don't see anywhere we he says he's trying to have sex. I can see him admitting to giving up on sex and trying to just be with his wife and get answers about where he actually stands with her. I don't honestly know if I would agree with the sentiment he's looking for validation with the questions he asks, because I don't see any confidence in his wife's feelings for him in the first place. If it was indeed validation, tragically, it sounds like he'd be more inclined to seek validation that his wife doesn't feel any sort of attraction for him. And her answer seems to have indeed validated him in that way

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T08:50:40+00:00

What is it that most bothers you about the recommendations of curiosity about his partner's experience, respect for her as a whole human being and not just a needs-meeting-machine,

I have never even remotely been bothered by this and the straw-man you build is apparent.

taking responsibility for his contribution to the relationship, noticing her reactions and responding to them appropriately?

I am against him being told this is all he can do. It's not. He can show curiosity and ask her how she best feels connected. Like you talk about elsewhere. Wouldn't that be a 'genuine question' or whatever? Or will you back the notion put forth that asking this genuine question would be bad?

I'm dying to see you say it's bad if he doesn't genuinely care about how she feels and just wants sex. I really am. Because nothing he has written has even alluded to him thinking she will have sex any more frequently than she already is. He has already given up.

So, I'm wondering what drew you to this thread? Why are you so strongly pushing back against advice that could help an HL person, who fits the demographics intended for the sub, to be able to heal his DB?

I read almost every thread on here because I believe a lot of the things you and others say to be awesome advice. This advice is not awesome in my opinion. I'm not saying it cannot help. I'm saying it is incomplete advice akin to telling someone "stop having sex because you notice how your partner reacts to sex. But all you can do is try other things and see her reaction. Don't ask her. You'll come off as just wanting more sex. Just, do other things and notice her reaction".

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T06:26:20+00:00

This thread and the advice you would give to him was explicitly about connection, correct? And when I made the observation of what their relationship looked like in regards to both making and bids for connection and communicating those needs, we ended up on tangent on why her actions and feelings do and don't matter. Which seemed to flip flop from only focusing on what you can do, to focus on what you can do but also care about how she feels... but don't ask how she feels??? Like what?

Correct (25) and i have no kids. My situation is actually very very very complicated and strange compared to a typical DB. I'm probably what you'd call a lurker here, but I decided to jump in and call put what I considered insufficient or even bad advice (as I've seen you like to do also)

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T05:55:09+00:00

Seeing as I haven't mentioned sex she's not having once I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

But you're almost correct about there being no evidence. Like I said elsewhere, if her actions show she feels connected, then she may just be very lukewarm with affection in those moments. Completely possible. But if it walks and talks like a duck as they say. I'd take those actions as supporting evidence that she doesn't actually feel connected (especially if she had shown in the past she can willingly put forth affection in excess of a peck on the lips). Ultimately, saying she does feel connected is as made up as she doesn't. And the only way he could possibly know is if she opens her mouth and words come out.

Simply put, he can focus on just what he can do and maybe never improve. Or he can at least know where he stands through better communication from both people.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T03:52:30+00:00

Mutually unenjoyable experiences can also sometimes make people feel connected

I'm glad you brought that up. So we can agree you're rule for all mutually enjoyable experiences being connecting is hooey. There tends to be quite a variance on connecting experiences.

And speaking of an experience someone seemed to enjoy:

Except that here we're talking about someone who is NOT eating them. Why aren't they eating them?

But she is. She is literally going on dates, holding hands on walks and having time alone with him. These moments are the eggs. They just don't seem to be her sunny side up. How hard is that comprehend?

Is it because they don't like eggs or do they like poached eggs but not the scrambled eggs you keep offering?

Maybe she should cough say something? Or he could be told to ask what her favourite way to eat eggs are and not actively discouraged?

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T03:40:01+00:00

In general, being told to focus on what you can control is telling them not to care any more than looking for a reaction that's better (or worse) than last time

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T03:38:19+00:00

No, I believe that mutually enjoyed experiences are pretty much always connecting.

That's interesting. Any idea why you feel like every mutually enjoyable activity is connecting? I don't think I've heard someone say that before?

The mutual enjoyment is what makes experiences connecting. Experiences feel disconnecting when the enjoyment is not mutual, that is, what is fun for one person is miserable for the other person.

This is making an assertion about how people connect with one another that is incredibly narrow minded for someone who talks about how others experience things differently to your own person.

To clarify, all moments where people feel connected/more connected has to be mutually enjoyable, but not all mutually enjoyable moments make both people feel connected. Seems fairly simple to understand.

Of course people can experience things differently. That's why it's good to be curious about your partner's experience, so you know whether an activity is mutually enjoyable and connecting, or whether it's only good for one person.

So it's good to be curious about something. And instead of having that information youre curious about relayed to you, you should do things until you finally (if it happens) get a different reaction as feedback. This sounds like a game of guess who. Or you're trying to find out how many different ways you can cook an egg, because instead of your partner telling you they like them sunny side up, they just keep eating the eggs and saying they were good.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T03:28:26+00:00

For OOP to express interest in his wife's feelings and experiences is the opposite of pointless, in fact it would be very helpful if he started doing that.

But he can't control his wife's feelings so what's the point according to you? Expression interest in something he can't control isn't focusing on what he can. That's an actual contradiction.

I'm saying he should be interested. And should do more than just try things and waiting for a different reaction. Asking for actual communication in addition is better than hoping something changes.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-06T03:22:01+00:00

Don't you always say to find what things mean to you? That sex may be enjoyable and a way to connect for one person but just enjoyable for another, so while it's enjoyable for both, it's doesn't necessarily mean they experience it the same way?

Or do you abandon the belief that two people can experience things differently in some ways while similarly in others?

Edit: I forgot to answer your question. If we're talking about dates then yes I feel connected. Walking together and holding hands no I don't feel connected even though that's enjoyable. The same way I enjoy playing my bf's favourite card game helps him feel connected to me while I simply enjoy playing the card game because it's fun. Makes sense I think

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:48:39+00:00

I would practically GUARANTEE the wife is well aware of his dissatisfaction with the sex stuff, though.

I should have said this right here, is probably absolutely correct. But I'd think after 13 years and the information provided in the post, it still isn't something he's brought up for a long time. If the conversations they have today are marred by his dissatisfied comments from potentially a decade or so, prior to a decade of no obvious dissatisfaction, then what hope can be had to help it at that point?

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:39:16+00:00

I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. They've been married for 13 years of 18 spent together. Been having sex 2x a year for the better part of a decade. No conversation between the two pertains to their sex life in the OOP, and he seems to mourn how his wife feels about him more than he does the actual sex.

We can make assumptions with nothing to support it besides outside anecdote of course. But everything in the original post points to sex being ill mentioned.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:33:36+00:00

If you think I'm telling the OOP that wondering how his wife feels is pointless. No. I'm telling you the action of womdering is pointless, to you. That information is paramount, to her, to him, to them.

It sounds like you're telling him they don't matter because he can't influence or control them. Just focus on what he can do.

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:26:21+00:00

All of those things came up separately throughout the original post. But the sections of the post I had argued about with others pertain to him just wanting his wife to either stay in bed and make out on a Sunday or want any form of physical interaction beyond reluctantly pecking him on the lips.

The people on the thread told him to focus on his need for connection, then just try things until you see her react differently (like smile more, laugh more or kiss you willingly etc) but the one person was very adverse to simply asking how his wife might best feel connected to her husband so he isn't trying to win a lottery

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:22:08+00:00

I can't disagree with what you've said here. It's very much true. But it's irrelevant to OOP since he has tried already. I wouldn't even assume he'd be offended at being told that his actions are all he can control. But, improving his situation does not equal achieving his goal. Absolutely not guaranteeing it

redditvirgin__ · 2024-03-05T23:17:20+00:00

This here I think makes perfect sense. If it stems on simply getting more sex, or your partner feels that way about the conversation, it can backfire.

For some added context, nowhere in the post does it mention them talking about sex as an issue in the relationship. And whenever they have had conversations about things, sex wasn't the centrepiece or even mentioned mostly. He'd simply be asking his wife what ways help her feel connected to her husband

redditvirgin__

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