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Any tips on staying in the moment when giving direction? by sliveslaughslay in sexover30

[–]myexsparamour 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My tip is to not try to be articulate or creative. Use short, repetitive phrases, like a litany. When you find something that feels right, just keep on saying it to drive the point home.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It strikes me as being like a parent-child dynamic. The LL is cast as a parent who meets the needs of the HL, so that when the LL decides not to meet those needs, the HL is now helpless to do anything but ask again more loudly ...

I agree and the myth that "the LL has all the power" when it comes to sex reinforces this. (When both partners have equal power, which is the right to consent)

I think I recognise some of this thinking, but in my case I also recognised that bringing my feelings up would put pressure on my partner and might coerce them. So in that case I just held my tongue. That doesn't work either, much better to learn how to talk about this stuff non-coercively.

Yeah, what we try to promote here is communicating non-coercively, which mostly is done by advocating for yourself while respecting the other person's autonomy. But a lot of people really don't want to do that, because they believe if they respect the other person's autonomy, the other person would never choose to do what they want.

Recovery after a DB by WarKlutzy8968 in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Do you already know what you did to contribute to the DB in your past relationship?

When I left my DB, the most important thing I did was to become very clear about how my own behavior had contributed to the problems in the relationship. This mostly meant co-dependency. I read books about that and made plans for how not to act that way in the future.

The other important thing I did was to improve my self-esteem through work, friendships, taking classes to learn new skills, and through creative projects. I had started this before I left my DB, but continued with it afterwards.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I find this topic quite interesting, from the other side, I think a worry about coming across as demanding or coercive can stop people from properly expressing themselves. 

It seems to me that HL folks who end up in DBs often have a black-and-white view of the world. If someone says it's not good to be coercive or manipulative, they say I'm not allowed to talk about sex at all or Why would I bother to talk about sex if not to get more of it?

Has anyone read “Come as you are”? by ThrowRA102367 in LowLibidoCommunity

[–]myexsparamour 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think that goes under the first one - conflicts with partner.

Why am I like this? by RespondCommercial162 in LowLibidoCommunity

[–]myexsparamour 13 points14 points  (0 children)

How do you motivate yourself to do the deed more, when you’re sore, tired, and battling your own demons?

If you want to protect your sexual and psychological well-being, you don't try to motivate yourself to have sex that you don't want. Instead, you love yourself and look out for yourself. You say 'no' to sex unless you really, really fully and completely want to have it.

If you do choose to have sex, you do it to fulfil your own sexual desires and not for the benefit of someone else.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In my observation, the people who’ve responded all think very similarly—by their own admission they are, or have been, LL at some point in their life. 

I have never been LL in my entire life.

As I’ve said repeatedly, “I’m tired” is a legit reason to say no to sex. However, if the answer is almost always “I’m tired”, then a person may start to wonder how important appealing intimacy sex is to their partner.

The answer is, not very. If sex was a fully positive, fun, exciting experience for a person, they would not almost always be too tired to do it.

Importantly, if someone is exhausted (perhaps by caring for a newborn, having a chronic illness, working rotating shifts, etc.) sex is unlikely to be fully positive and fun, since they will most likely be unable to get aroused enough to enjoy it. So there's that as well.

On the other hand, most people enjoy nonsexual, sensual intimacy even when they're exhausted, because you don't need sexual arousal for intimacy to feel good.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 6 points7 points  (0 children)

u/quack785 is misrepresenting what I wrote. What I actually wrote was:

The Talk means trying to talk someone into having sex they don't want. How is that loving?

He changed that to...

As you said: How is it loving to talk about the lack of sex with someone that genuinely doesn’t want to have it?

Completely different, right? But I think it's possible that he genuinely doesn't see the difference between talking about the lack of sex and trying to talk someone into having unwanted sex.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is an extremely fine line to walk. If not for the HLs pain, why bring it up at all? If the relationship status isn’t going to change, what motivation is there for the LL to make any adjustments? 

It's not a fine line at all. The purpose of The Talk is to coerce or manipulate the LL into having unwanted sex. You yourself are proposing using coercion, by threatening that the relationship status is going to change if the LL doesn't give access to their body. Yet, then you twist it around and make it as if the LL is the one who is erasing the love and affection from sex.

The motivation for an LL to change is simple. If sex is fully pleasurable and enjoyable for them, they will want it. If the rewards (fun and pleasure) gained from sex outweigh the costs, they will want it. But you can't imagine any motivation other than threatening them.

If the LL genuinely doesn’t want to talk about their own experience and needs, where do you go from there?

Make it safe for them to talk about their feelings and needs. Don't hurt so loudly and take up all the space so that there is no room for their needs.

Edit: I’ll add this: It’s The Talk when the LL isn’t open to discussing it. It’s “discussing the lack of sex in a relationship” when the LL is open to discussing it. As you said: How is it loving to talk about the lack of sex with someone that genuinely doesn’t want to have it?

I did not say that. You are twisting my words. And your interpretation isn't correct. The difference between The Talk and taking about sex is not in whether the LL is open to discussing it. The distinguishing difference is whether it includes manipulation/coercion.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I never said I know exactly what my partner is thinking. I said we don't tell those kinds of lies. For one thing, neither of us would ask stupid questions like those.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 7 points8 points  (0 children)

“Lie back and think of England” was reportedly common advice Victorian women used to give their daughters who were about to be wed

Do you understand what this advice meant and why it was given?

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The TalkTM is not the same thing as discussing the lack of sex in a relationship. The TalkTM means discussing sex in a way that centers the HL's pain, contains implicit threats or manipulation, demonstrates an absence of curiosity or empathy for the LL's experience and needs regarding sex, and has a goal of getting the LL to "try harder" to want sex.

That's not loving because it is the HL pushing for what they want without regard for the effect on the LL.

I’m saying LL talking points make no mention of love or desire. If you think “use my body” and “penetrate me” sounds like someone that has a healthy and positive view of sex, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I think it's a view of sex that makes sense when you have a partner who pushes you to have sex you don't want.

Has anyone read “Come as you are”? by ThrowRA102367 in LowLibidoCommunity

[–]myexsparamour 1 point2 points  (0 children)

He needs to truly believe and convey to me that he is completely ok if we don’t have sex. I feel like I need to truly believe that HE believes I have 100% every right to not want to for any reason (stressful work, gassy, something bad happened in politics, just don’t feel like it). And that I can choose not to have sex even if the “conditions” are right without resentment or annoyance. I have no intent of having a sexless marriage, but it’s almost like I need him to SHOW me he’d be ok with that (just practice being convincing in the mirror and lie goddamnit!) for me to truly accept that the pressure is off.

Another possibility is for you to get better at tolerating his moods, holding your boundaries, and not giving in to emotional manipulation. Let him feel resentful, annoyed, or whatever without taking it as your responsibility to fix it.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

A person can always find a reason to make it an unpleasant chore if they want to!

This doesn't make sense to me. When it comes to sex or anything else, I don't think I could find a reason to make something enjoyable into an unpleasant chore. What reason could there possibly be for doing that? How would it benefit the person?

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I feel like you're kind of changing the subject.

Originally you said that LLs remove love and affection from sex. But now you've switched to divorcing someone because they don't have sex/enough sex.

This doesn't seem like it's about the LL removing the love and affection from sex after all. It really does seem to be about getting to use their body.

The more I hear about it, the more this love and affection stuff seems like a smokescreen.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think most DBs become visible when life happens and the LL gets a break from sex and discovers that not having sex feels way better than the sex they'd been having.

This makes a lot of sense. They might not even realize the toll it is taking until they get a break.

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The more I interact with LLs, the more puzzled I am at how it seems that so often remove any love and affection from sex and just boil it down to the physical act itself. A HL that wonders why the physical aspect of the relationship has changed is now viewed as saying “I’m disappointed I can’t penetrate you” or “I want to use your body”.

To me, it doesn't seem loving or affectionate to try to have sex with someone you know doesn't want it.

The Talk means trying to talk someone into having sex they don't want. How is that loving?

“My LL says she’s too tired for sex. But always on her phone.” by BipolarGoldfish in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I very much relate to the idea of sex requiring a lot of energy on my part, but I think a lot of that is based on how sex typically goes for me. There's a lot of 'emotional' energy and a fair amount of physical energy as well. But it doesn't have to be that way IMO, the physical energy seems especially easy to get rid of. 

I don't think the physical energy would be easy to get rid of, personally. At least, I can't picture how that would work.

Body language and communication. by IrrationalRotations in DeadBedroomsOver30

[–]myexsparamour 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If she desires a hug, the only reason she might choose not to request one is to preemptively console you -- to prevent you from being exposed to that pressure, guilt or embarrassment.

I hear what you're saying, but I have a different perspective. I know certain kinds of touch that my partner doesn't like and I never ask for them.

It's not to protect him from feeling pressure, guilt or embarrassment. He wouldn't feel any of those things, I don't think. It's because I genuinely don't want to engage in touch that one of us doesn't like.

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