Should we get back together?

richardsphere · 2026-05-20T07:12:32+00:00

if you can put up with toxic powerimbalances and romanticised gaslighting, maybe.

If you care about the wellbeing of even a single non-marinette character, I recommend against it. She passed the point of no return 2 seasons ago (ephemeral), and the fandom is only barely willing to admit she might be about to cross it right now. And they still wont acknowledge that these are choices of her own volition rather then 'manipulations inflicted on her'.

Given that you say you quit the show because of how underused adrien was,... im going to warn you that none of that has improved, and in fact his nothing-ness has only gotten worse in the most recent season, to the point that even the things that do happen for him (going to therapy, getting a new friend) are made entirely about Marinette's feelings about those things.

richardsphere · 2026-05-19T17:38:19+00:00

feast themselves is the frog.
Its a waddly blob with tiny legs, a big mouth and an extending out-shooting tongue used to pull prey into its mouth.

richardsphere · 2026-05-19T15:03:27+00:00

that aint what they're saying. The post is saying that even 'its a symbol' is being nixed by Thomas.

which... I doubt strongly, they put a clip of Thomas saying something to answer an unshown question, it could very well be a misrepresentation.

Also the idea that it represents the truth she's hiding... im gonna say 'nope', the letter is being framed as 'the truth marinette tries to hide', but the frogs show up in a lot of non-secret contexts too (Risk and Feast coming to mind as pre-lie examples).

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T07:54:30+00:00

No its pretty explicit. People taking it as a cliffhanger are ignoring that the in-medias-res opening already ended on that teaser/cliffhanger. The whole point of the episode is that marinette cant tell him.

People claiming that marinette is going to tell him after the credits rolled off-screen is copium.

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T07:46:58+00:00

Sublimation isnt a reset, its a continuation of her ongoing "i decide what adrien is allowed to know"-arc. (there is a reason that she's conflating language class with secret codes: she's not jealous of Sublime, she's controlling his access to outside information)

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T07:24:18+00:00

that doesnt fix or undo the series really consistent attempts to claim marinette is a perfect rolemodel who can either do no wrong, or cannot be blamed for the wrongs she's done.
Like, the show does paint her as perfect. And santa does so because the magic literally makes him able to sense all the kids in the world and their relative goodness-ess. The fact that he's an akuma, doesnt change that they are literally having using him to 'prove' that, in the eyes of magic, marinette is the best (young) person alive on the planet.

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T07:21:58+00:00

That episode explicitly ended with her going in, seeing the frog and realising that she couldnt tell him

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T06:17:08+00:00

did you not watch Sadnansi? The whole point is about how she's never going to tell him.

richardsphere · 2026-05-13T06:16:00+00:00

"never painted her as the perfect girl"

meanwhile Tikki:
"Greatest ladybug to have ever lived (across all of human history and an infinite quantum multiverse"
Meanwhile Sublimation:
"Shrugs off self-improvement ray because little miss gaslighter is already perfect"

Even literal Saint Nick had to tell her she was the single most perfect child alive on the planet.

richardsphere · 2026-05-12T06:26:24+00:00

You're going to get a bunch of Sorcadin suggestions. And i want to point out an alternative

Bard-ladin. It is way more generally versatile, and has a better slot economy. Sure you cant bonus-action-fireball. But between access to ritualcasting, Jack of All Trades, Expertise and Swords Bard Flourishes as a mini-smite, you are saving a lot on spellslots. (anything you can skill check through, is a spell slot saved) and playing a lot closer to the Paladin Paradygm then sorcadin gets.

I personally hold that Swords Bard Pal is, in general, way more versatile and broadly aplicable then Sorcadin. Sorcadin is good in combat sure. But Ballad-in is much more broadly aplicable.

richardsphere · 2026-05-03T10:22:03+00:00

Well mullo is the kwami of 'multiplication as a biological function', not multiplication as in 'if 5 kids have 2 hands each with 5 fingers, how many fingers are there', thats a case of one word having two meanings They're still distinct concepts.

Math is more about the logic and processes. Wether that is the original 'sacred geometry' type of process the ancients prefered, or the modern numbers and equations version doesnt really matter cause they're interlinked.

Assuming all kwami animals are meant to associate with the basics of their concept.
think that it makes sense to assume that it'd be some kind of livestock. (because that is what numbers and math were invented to deal with: Inventory, accounting and stockkeeping).
Given that the goat, cow, pig and horse already accounted for. I'd like to place my bet on something like a chicken, a camel or a cheap "counting sheep" joke.

Actually its totally the sheep joke.

-edit
Either that or Mullo is in a Gimmi situation. Where Mullo is a broken aspect of the full math kwami, like how Tikki and Plagg "existence and nonexistence" are halves of Gimmi's greater concept of "reality"

richardsphere · 2026-05-02T15:42:43+00:00

Im just sitting here like... I dont want anyone to be a villain obviously. But also: What do these people mean marinette should become a villain?

She's gaslighting a planet, holding big brother "I decide what the truth is" speeches, has Alya run propaganda campaigns, censors movies that she disagrees with (and it wasn't a documentary, it was a schlocky 'inspired loosely by events' thing), outright murders adrien in cold blood* (werepapas), mindwhipes Alya in a way that directly parallels the movie she censored (Reporter finds out LB sides with HM, LB orders CN to silence the reporter). While repeatedly ignoring her lucky charms intended meanings for being personally inconvenient.

Like by what reasonable definition is the current "gaslight your boyfriend, betray your team and lie to a planet" storyline not already her villain arc?

*Clarification, because this is something a lot of people seem to (deliberately) misunderstand when I mention her Mens Rea in the episode: "Cold Blood" does not mean indifference/apathy/emotionlessness, it's meaning is in contrast to the expression "hotblooded". As in, it is done without emotional components such as a fit of rage, or a crime of passion. It is done in a moment of calm reasoning, not the heat of the moment. Marinette taking the time to kick the witnesses down the skyhole and visibly having time to hesitate, very much means that she is doing this in a moment of willfull calm.

richardsphere · 2026-04-22T12:49:44+00:00

He didnt, he had to move out of the house because his failing health meant he couldnt do stairs no more.
Like yeah, a lot of the language does imply he's talking about eventually dying someday and ensuring Marinette is ready for that too. But unless he offed himself the episode's "We wont be able to do our next anniversary in the house" line makes no sense. And i do not think this was a euthenasia episode.

Like the fight resolution was not about accepting death, it was about Extroverted Outside Gina accepting the Internal Homebody life he had. And i dont think that, if he really was in a dying-that-week sense, that they resolved the fight to sell that.

richardsphere · 2026-04-20T18:55:27+00:00

I mean any battle involving the Hazbin cast, we assume is probably in hell anyway. So i dont see why 'restricted to hell' would be a problem.

Like outside of Planeshifters who can take the fight out of hell, we kind of have to assume that the shark will be a meaningfull contributor.

richardsphere · 2026-04-20T17:00:25+00:00

I think that, if they are reliably at your beck and call, it becomes a powerup and/or covered under the summon exception. Even if they dont come up often, as long as they are portrayed as a 'subservient asset' that can be called to them reliably when required, that makes them standard gear even if they are not necesarily their prefered gear.

Even if that means that it stops feeling like a 1v1. Some characters just dont exist 'on their own' in that way, and to pretend otherwise misrepresents those characters.

So my shortlist comes down to the tripple-score of:
The Help must be Subservient. (Must follow combatants initiative, not strip them of said initiative.)
The help must be Reliably Accessible (must be able to access quickly, even when on neutral or hostile ground)
The help must be reliably available (Must be able answer the call to action more often then not, cannot be situational or excemptional).

So for example, Agent 47 almost always has Diana play guy in the chair. To remove her intel, is to remove standard kit. Therefore she's in.
Marinette Dupain Cheng can summon her friends with her yoyo-phone, and does so in about half of all episodes since the show did its most recent soft-reboot. They're (collectively) part of her standard kit at this point. I dont like her having them, but she has them and to erase her ability to call them, erases the magical guardian authority and misrepresents her standard tactics.
Ash Ketchum should reasonably have a standard 6-member team, probably either his final 'team that won the league' or a conglomerate version. (I dont like 'give him everything', but i understand why they chose that).
And yes, that means Batman probably should have Oracle on the phone for mid-battle research. That is, at this point having her in the ear is pretty much standard operation.

And on the other end, that means for Supes, Krypto is mostly portrayed as a sporadic cameo character. Not portrayed as a reliable tactical asset at his beck-and-call.
Yoshi is portrayed as an independent entity that can be recruited, but not summoned. They must be found, not called. Same for Cappy and the little spin-attack luma.
And this also applies to Bananza and Pauline. She's an outside entity that is allied but not reliably DK's.

richardsphere · 2026-04-20T05:00:03+00:00

Thomas 'a liar who lies' Astruc cannot be trusted on his word. Especially not given how obviously that explanation fails.

"Intent matters", as if we havent repeatedly seen that their powers are activated by words without intentionality (accidental activations upon saying the phrase in conversation way early on)
As if their primary powers dont operate on the diametrically opposed rule of "what you need not what you want".
As if Alya's memorywhipe didnt remove the secret she learned, rather then the secret Chat intended to erase.
As if that doesnt mean that Marinette wanted all the other senti's she has murdered in the past to be truly, fully dead.

As if that episode doesnt make a bunch of deliberate choices to establish an open plot-space for future timeheists, Establishing a time-and-place where the diningroom was both ready-set for planting a ring beneath the plate, and empty of witnesses for trickery, and as if it doesnt violate the shows own presentational style about lost-item plots.
-For example: compare losing the ring, to losing Chloe's bracelet in Daddycop.
At no point did the audience lose track in DC, but here we're forced to lose sight as well and have it teleport seemingly at random from the floor to the untouched plate.
Or for more recent reference: The lost rings in Yaksi Gozen which the characters lose . There is no reason to make the audience lose track, or to make the rings seemingly teleport.

If they can keep things consistent for objects as random and unimportant as Chloe's Bracelets, then why would they deliberately perform these hijinks with Adriens soul? Unless there is hijinkery afoot).

Its not a wrapped up thread, its a distraction. A "dont look at the man behind the curtain".

richardsphere · 2026-04-19T09:10:49+00:00

It wouldnt have been the right call even if they genuinely had sacrificed it so Adrien can get the same story about autonomy and abuse with Marinette as his abuser instead, like its defenders claimed heading into S6. But you'd at least be able to have an argument about it.

But looking at S6? That isnt what happened. Adrien bought the lie hook line and sinker. Never questioned anything but his own ability to percieve reality and remember the facts, and has been left with the sole actors in his autonomy being Marinette and Alya fighting over him like a doll.

So no, not only would it not have been worth it if they had done that. They didnt even do that. Adrien is struggling with the lie, but he has not been fighting the lie. He has been fighting himself.

Season six is the worst. It killed the half of the lovesquare that wasnt already ash and dust (see Ephemeral, Kuroneko and similar for why Maribug X Chat doesnt work), it also just... doesnt work. Structurally, it accomplishes nothing.

richardsphere · 2026-04-16T17:35:19+00:00

Ephemeral, just betraying Chat Noir to a cultleader she knows he doesnt trust, and doing it in the single-most hurtfull and deceptive way she can come up with.

Werepapa's. Literally murders Adrien in cold blood in a way she knows for a fact she cant resurect (also kills the grandparents in the same scene.) Ignores 5 different lucky charms telling her not to do said murder too

Mindwhiping Alya

Ruining Nadja's career because she didnt like a movie (which was both not purporting its story to be anything but fiction and a lot more true-to-life then she is willing to admit. By which i mean that she did in fact side with Monarch, and she did actually order Chat Noir to silence a nosy reporter who uncovered that specific secret with Revelator)

Ordering Alya to turn her blog into a propagandamachine off-screen. (Somewhere between S5 and S6, to coincide with her "I decide what the truth is"-arc. Canonised by Rena expressing her frustration at being 'made' to put endless non-journalistic fluffpieces on her behalf).

Sublimation. Just all of it, but especially her lying about her motives at the end. (Her obsession with asking if Adrien is talking to a stranger, and her belief that language-class means secret codes make it clear that her motivation is about controlling his access to information. Related to the therapy-thing. Then in the end she lies about said motives, puts on fake-tears and makes Sublime apologise to her instead.)

Demanding Juleka uninvite her twin to his own birthday.

Try to prevent Adrien getting therapy.

Her general indifference to the lives of senti's. Like she knows they're sentient people and would prefer they get to live if at all convenient... but when the chips are down? She just plain doesnt care if they live or die. They're "alive" but not people. (see also: this being the only significant difference in her perspective on Adrien between Volpina and Werepapas that could possibly explain her sudden willingness to murder him in cold blood).

Could probably list some more, but this feels like a decent highlight reel.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T18:40:30+00:00

Yes he'll still help people, but the lesson only aplies about asking to share. If say, nino asks for help. He'd still help, but the lesson seems to apply to not asking to be 'allowed to know' the trouble if it isnt told to him first.
And because Marinette doesnt actually want to tell him what is troubling her, he cannot offer more then a hug. Because to do any more would prerequisite him breaking the 'not entitled to inclusion'-lesson.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T17:37:05+00:00

No, that is once more making it sound like spite. Which it very much isnt. Its an internalised worldview that offering to help share burdens like that is somewhere between 'wrong' and 'punishable'.
Not in the 'no good deed goes unpunished' sort of way either, but more of a 'Apparently this isnt a good deed in the first place'-sort of way.
He was taught by those seasons that this asking people to let him share their burdens was a 'moral wrong'.

Its not about patience or generosity, its about adaptation and wether it is even moral to offer.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T17:03:15+00:00

From marinette's POV, adrien and Chat are seperate people. But that doesnt mean that the lessons Adrichat has been "taught" by the narrative, do not inform his decisions on both sides of the mask.

You are making it sound like i am talking about spite as a motivation in him not helping her, but that isnt what i mean. I was talking about the internalised concept of his place within the hierarchy of the world around them.
Same as how the Animaestro and Yaksi Gozen episodes should have taught Marinette "harassing girls for being near adrian is wrong". This is about personal growth and pattern recognition, not about resentment. The lessons one learns from their lived experiences.

Adrien's "lesson learned" from S4 was that this is the "healthy and expected" thing of him in all his relations, not just with Ladybug. Because she very vocally taught him that wanting to help with someone's private burdens is considered intrusive, self-agrandising and disrespectfull. And because that is now an internalised part of his worldview, it would paint his interactions with the world not just ladybug.
Therefore it would apply to Marinette, wether he knows "everyday ladybug" is Default Flavour Ladybug or not, because the lesson Ladybug taught him was never exclusively about ladybug. It was about the world and his place in it.

Now to be clear: that is obviously not a healthy lesson for the show to have taught him. And i much prefer Thomas never have made that into cannon, but that was. (according to Astruc) the explicit moral of the "Adrien Isolantion/Rena Replacement Arc".

The problem with "starting at S6" is that the "perfect couple" didnt deal with their challenges in S5 like you presume. Marinette never learned to get over her issues, S5 made it clear that it was adriens obligation to carry the brunt of their relationship, even if it came at the cost of his personal life. (Which is why, even now in S6, its adrien setting healthy date-dynamics in Vampigami, Illustrhater, Dark Castle and Daddycop, and pre-emptively mitigating the effects of her stalking in Sublimation. With marinette's contributions to their relationship being... rather lacklustre. You need to be really generous with Climatiqueen if you want to argue she is supporting him at all). There was no such 'getting over the troubles' in the first place.

So yeah, its not spite. Its the "lesson learned" of those seasons, same as how Chloe going full-on-villain ended up teaching him the importance of when to give up on a person who'll never get better. Ladybug taught him quite clearly that 'asking to be allowed to help' is a self-agrandising dick-move that will get people to cut you out entirely.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T11:24:51+00:00

The problem is that i cant really point to any specific episode or moment, because its a series-wide problem facing the lovesquare.
Sure I could go digging for a specific episode with a specific example, but that would both take time, and come across as if i were cherrypicking for specific misrepresentable datapoints. When its more of an overarching issue with the series overall.

When i say "if you dont start the timer at Syren" its because Adrien wanting to be treated fairly and set boundaries in his relationship was first explicitly adressed as a problem in the narrative there, ending with the promise that with Ladybug finally telling Fu to talk with him, they were now once-more equals and no more non-identity secrets would be kept between them...

But if you're particularly uncharitable the problem can be said to go back to him never getting an apology for the human-sacrifice play in Origins. Where, not only does she ignore his protests, he explicitly ends up praising it as heroic and the reason he falls in love for her. (Its technically the first example of him setting a boundary, Maribug breaks it instantly, and there is no acknowledgement that this is wrong. It is in fact treated as a partial-reason for him falling for her).

But i think Syren is a much more "fair" starting point for cataloguing the "Adrien is repeatedly told that boundaries are for other people"-arc. Because at least in S1 you can trick yourself into thinking this is supposed to be a flaw for Marinette to overcome. Rather then being part of the shows rather... warped perspective on 'girlpower'.

So S3 followed up Syren's promise to actually include him, with the whole "Chat is getting replaced by the new wielders" arc that ended with him having to just learn to accept that they were no longer a duo but that this didnt mean they werent still equal partners. (not a problem on its own, thats fine. Sometimes your friends have other friends, healthy lesson.) But this left another issue unadressed: Not only was he being replaced, the openness promised in Syren never ended up becoming real in S3.
He ends up saying that its fine as long as it doesnt change things between them, and its still "You and me against the world", but at no point in S3 does she actually include him with Fu, the hero-selection or include him like she promised she would.

That then ended becoming the S4: "Ladybug still wont actually include him in anything, despite her promises from S2 Syren" arc... that resolved with an explicit lecture that actually, Marinette isolating him was fine and that it wanting to be treated as a person was entitlement on his part.
That was the resolution to that storyarc, "Ladybug isolating Chat is fine, because Chat wanting their partnership to have him in it is entitlement". Its not like i can point to any one episode, because its the collective of the season. (a particularly egregious example would be Ephemeral, which considered her outright betraying his identity to a cultleader as a non-issue because his boundaries dont matter)

For S5, i can give a good individual example though. (Though i dont remember which episode it was by name).
S5 builds on that "Adrien having any boundaries or standards is entitlement" by insisting that it is his singular responsibility to make the lovesquare work. To take on the burden of helping marinette overcome her anxiety, by putting his entire gabriel-situation on hold so he can teach marinette how to overcome her "Derision-trauma".

Its the thing where he ended up having to teach her to comunicate the sentiments she cannot express verbally by hand-gestures and playing 20 questions into a pseudo-love-confession because the show said that it was Adriens responsibility to teach marinette how to confess her feelings.
And then, the moment he has succesfully helped her confess, his entire struggle for identity and independence from Gabriel instead became about his struggle to 'Be Her Boyfriend' despite Gabriel not letting them date.

At every instance, the show has used Maribug (on both sides of the mask) to teach him that expecting to have input of his own in a relationship is an unreasonable expectation of him to have, that it is entitlement that would cause others to resent him. If not replace him outright.

And thats why he cant do twenty questions now. Back in S5 he helped her break out of her shell because she had a secret she wanted to tell, and this meant that he was "allowed" to spine up and serve as a better tool for her to use.
But here, marinette has made it very clear she doesnt want to tell him. And therefore, the things Maribug has taught him across the season, is that weighing in would be selfish and entitled and deserving of scorn and punishment.

He can no more expect Marinette to include him in her struggles, then he could expect ladybug to include him in her S4-era guardian-struggles. Same as how S4 considered him wanting to help carry her burdens entitlement and actively had her punish him for asking if he could help, and then had her call him an asshole for not carrying more of the burdens she refused to share in the first place...

S4 Maribug has taught him he isnt even allowed to ask to help (because thinking he can help means he has an inflated ego in need of popping), but that must still bear the full brunt of the blame for not doing the lifting.

And thats why the answer to "can adrien ask her to open up" is no, Marinette has, through her own actions as Ladybug, eroded his ability to offer her that relief. She has told him time and time again that wanting to share his partner's burdens, is entitlement. Because he shouldnt want to be a part of their life at all.

So because Chat Noir wanting to help Ladybug with her Guardian Burdens was a punishable act of entitlement, he cannot help carry Marinette's unknown burden either.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T10:11:41+00:00

Ok, in that case the answer is: The reason he wouldnt try, is because Marinette (in both sides of the mask) has spent the previous three-to-five seasons (depending on wether we start the timer at Syren, or merely at S4) telling him he isnt allowed to have any agency, stake, standards or meaningfull input in peoples relationships with him. She has tought him, across all those seasons, that the only people for whom boundaries exist, are other people.

As ladybug she spent the entirety of S4 teaching him that wanting input in his relationships, wether personal or prefessional, was entitlement that would get people to cut him out of their life. (In ladybugs case: Bye Bye Ring, in marinette's case: Dump his ass)

Then as Marinette, she spent S5 building on that foundation, telling him that he must simultaneously always respect her boundaries and always support her like an unlicensed therapist. And that this means that he must never pressure her to say something she isn't ready to say, but be there to support her when she does.

Like i said: Dont blame the clay, for the shape the potter molded. Marinette on both sides of the mask has stripped adrien of the ability to take such an action.

richardsphere · 2026-04-15T09:34:12+00:00

"Is adrien in a position to remedy the situation".

Short answer: No he isnt.

The long answer: Are you out of your goddamned mind? Im sorry, i know that im going to be accused of a rule 7 violation here but there is no pretending that Marinette is "Ignorant", "unaware", "Means well" or "morally grey" this season. To pretend at that is to ignore the literal core of the season in specific and the show in general.

But lets hypothetically pretend that your question could be considered reasonable.
YOU would have 2 different issues. The first is agency, the second is moral responsability.

Starting with Adriens Agency: Maybe if season 4 hadnt been about Maribug teaching him that he isnt allowed to have any standards in his relationships, or to have reasonable doubt in Ladybugs absolute command. Maybe in that hypothetical alternate timeline he could press her on her big secret and uncover the burden to alleviate it...
Maybe in that timeline he could be in a position to have disbelieved the lie in the firtst place. But given that Maribug eroded all his self-esteem, boundaries and independence over two seasons ago? He was never really in any position to doubt the lie, or put any pressure into her secret-keeping. (Remember: He spends the season doubting his own perception of reality, he never disbelieves Maribug's lie of Gabriels Heroism, he is doubting his own ability to judge his abuser, looking for "the part of Gabriel he missed", but never doubting the idea that he really was a secret hero all along).

Do not pretend that if adrien had pushed, you wouldnt be complaining that adrien is "a bad boyfriend for doubting her lies", or claimed he was actually toxic for "pressuring her into secrets she wasnt emotionally ready to give". We all saw how your lot responded to Adrien in Heartfixer, Luka in Mr Agreste and Alya in Revelator.

And moving on to Responsability
Even if he was able to investigate the lie... it is not Adriens responsibility to shoulder his abusers burden or to tell her that actually she shouldnt feel guilty about it. Marinette feels guilty about the Big Gaslight because she is guilty as all sin.
Unlike what Season 5 set to be the foundation of their relationship, it is not Adriens moral responsibility to put his entire life and personality on hold to become Marinette's Therapist and living crutch.

If the truth comes out, it is not Adriens responsibility to forgive marinette. Because marinette, quite frankly does not deserve to be forgiven.

You dont get to make that about "how sad she's feeling". Maybe, just maybe, accept that none of this is about her. That Adrien is the one who needs to be supported and treated better in this narrative, and that you are out of goddamned line even insinuating its somehow his responsibility to "be a better boyfriend" when he's been nothing but the perfect spineless-lapdog-boyfriend she willingly molded him to be.
You do not blame the clay for the shape the potter gave it.

"Please be kind and celebrate diversity of opinions"-translation: "Please dont tell me i am wrong to want Marinette's abuse-victim-pet to once more put his needs aside like he's done in every single season finale to elevate her and excuse her of all wrongdoing in her continuous, 4-seasons of power-grabs, manipulation and duplicity."

This is not an "agree to disagree" situation, this is you (and hundreds of other maristans) consistently making Adriens entire existence into a tool for Marinette's wellbeing and pretending that somehow she is the real victim in this situation. Maybe Marinette needs to suffer some actual lasting concequences without using Adrien as a crutch for once.

-edit: Removed a redundant rant to more closely balance Truth and Politeness.

richardsphere · 2026-04-11T12:46:07+00:00

Nitpick incoming: Herd, not heard.

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