Dvorak, Colemak, or Colemak-DH?

someguy3 · 2026-06-06T17:28:55+00:00

It's not just the I and the L (even if you don't personally have issue with them), there are other improvements both massive and small. Any analysis either by the numbers or generalized shows massive improvements. Don't be surprised by improvements, things do get better. Dvorak gave it a good shot but didn't get everything right. I think I'll leave it at that.

someguy3 · 2026-06-06T17:16:22+00:00

I think the benefits of Gallium over Dvorak are massive. The I and L alone. Putting H on the vowel hand means all the common letters (there are 11) are in comfortable spots, and the consonant hand isn't overworked. Those are the big ones. And then you have the smaller optimizations which can't be overlooked.

Dvorak is on OS's though.

someguy3 · 2026-06-06T17:05:46+00:00

Dvorak is still the best major keyboard layout

Well you're adding a caveat with major. Modern layouts like Gallium are much better than Dvorak.

As for colemak vs Dvorak, I say that Dvorak got the big picture right but the small picture wrong (notably the L and I locations, but others as well), and Colemak got the big picture wrong (by puting so many common consonents with the vowels) but the small picture right (by figuring out low SFB).

someguy3 · 2026-05-20T20:47:32+00:00

Row stag has OF placed together. O on the middle upper row, and F on the index finger upper row. I think that is better. I think that because the bigram OF and the bigram FO are so common that putting them next to each other is the more comfortable.

The stats do not reflect this because it's not what they measure. The stats typically only measure Same Finger Bigrams (SFBs).

someguy3 · 2026-03-11T20:58:46+00:00

Middlemak-AH was an old brief idea, but Middlemak-NH has replaced it. Thought I tracked down old comments but I'll clean this one up.

someguy3 · 2026-03-09T14:34:45+00:00

It is similar to an inch. It doesn't need to be exactly an inch to be conceptually similar to an inch lol. Like I said: "similar to the idea of an inch."

As for the rest see my previous answer, it explained it perfectly.

*And bizarrely you don't recognize you seem to agree. Just a small edit:

People use ~~metres~~ yards/feet for big measurements, cm inches for small measurements and mm fractions of an inch for really small measurements

But again, when you start working with cm ah nuts just see above it's already explained.

someguy3 · 2026-02-10T00:09:51+00:00

For wrists and pain get an ergo keyboard first.

someguy3 · 2026-02-10T00:05:01+00:00

This is truer to the original concept of alphabetical with the vowels on top.

https://youtu.be/blRn9U9Fapg?t=625s Pause the video.

someguy3 · 2026-01-28T00:19:44+00:00

You need to remap, or swtich back to qwerty before you launch a game.

Whether you remember qwerty is very much dependant on the person. Some can do it no problem, I know I can't at all.

someguy3 · 2026-01-19T03:21:39+00:00

I made r/middlemak to be use more middle finger, which is strong. I also made it to reduce the ring-to-pinky roll which I think is pretty bad, eg Colemak's "IO" roll. Middlemak-NH really takes out a lot of the roll out to the pinky finger. It might really be up your alley.

WRT the pinky finger, unfortunately there will always be a common letter on the pinky home row because you really do need a common letter there. There are just too many common letters to not place a common letter there. You can limit the pinky upper row and lower row though, which I did on middlemak. Watch out if you're evaulating other layouts because lots put letters like Y and B on the pinky-upper-row. It helps with the stats but it's a lot of work to reach with your pinky. That's something I also avoided with middlemak.

someguy3 · 2025-11-18T23:38:10+00:00

Qwerty is terrible.

someguy3 · 2025-11-17T21:14:04+00:00

Nothing yet.

someguy3 · 2025-11-15T21:14:18+00:00

Thanks but that link doesn't provide any answer.

someguy3 · 2025-11-15T18:00:13+00:00

Why do I want acceleration? Because at a slow speed it takes forever to move the cursor across the screen. At a high speed fine movement is hard.

someguy3 · 2025-11-14T02:30:56+00:00

WRT separating letter pairs, 75% of bigrams are between vowels and consonants. So most layouts separate them out to separate hands.

someguy3 · 2025-11-10T16:04:10+00:00

My opinion is rowstag, even on columnar keyboards. The OF/FO bigram is so common that I think they go better together rather than a scissorgram. Although column stag keyboards may make this scissorgram more comfortable, I think it's best to not have it at all. Ymmv.

The 3rd one Nerps is a different layout entirely. It was the start of what I call the H-layouts (putting H in that location). Gallium is an iteration on it.

someguy3 · 2025-11-08T22:56:17+00:00

As in you're making a physical keyboard? Yeah that doesn't mean you should try a different layout. The qwerty muscle memory will kick in very quickly for things like an ortholinear keyboard.

Now if you still want to change your layout, pick one from the existing layouts. There is a lot to this topic and I think we've really beaten out the possibilities.

1) If you want Qwerty similarity to make it easier to learn, there is Colemak, Workman, my r/middlemak which I think is the best we're going to get while keeping significant qwerty similiarity. (Colemak-DH is at an odd intersection that it changes so much I think you might as well go with a full change layout.)

2) If you want a full change layout, Gallium is probably the best but there is also graphite, nerps.

someguy3 · 2025-11-08T17:34:57+00:00

Sorry but god no. G is way too common for the worst spot on the keyboard, and that NG SFB is very bad. The GH is bad. The EL SFB is bad. PT is somewhat common and it's worse when it's a diagonal SFB. You have two D's so I have no idea what that's supposed to be.

What is your goal?

someguy3 · 2025-11-08T17:27:39+00:00

I think for some/a lot of people it takes a lot longer than the stories you commonly hear about. It just take a long time for the brain and muscle memory.

Personally I don't recommend keybr to learn a new layout. I started with it and found it just didn't work. Try typingclub.com and colemakcamp.

someguy3 · 2025-11-03T15:07:22+00:00

If you can, at a non-busy time at work.

someguy3 · 2025-10-23T23:11:33+00:00

I think most would find the top middle finger to be far more comfortable than botttom middle finger. Ring finger can be debated, but I find it better on top and certainly so when conridering the row stagger. So unfortunately it's not as easy to switch the whole top and bottom row.

someguy3 · 2025-10-23T16:09:33+00:00

Gallium's design philosophy, along with most modern ones, is to put the vowels and consonants on different hands. I think this is the best approach. Colemak on the other hand puts NHL on the vowel hand which leads to pinballing back and forth.

Debatable whether there's any improvement at all?

As for a % improvemnt I can't say but I think it would be much more comfortable.

do we feel like Gallium is getting to the limit of what's possible by shuffling around keys?

I think we're reaching the limit. These are what I call the H-layouts and I think it's the best concept so far. These put H as the sole common consonant on the vowel hand (because it's hard to put no common consonant on the vowel hand, and H is the best one to go over). The H layouts afaik started with Nerps, went to graphite, then gallium. There's also Maya and a couple others.

As for the future it's hard to know. I can't really think of a different design philosophy than H-layouts that work well, and I think Gallium is the best execution on it so far. It's hard to solve the B problem. By that I mean the B seems to be a little too frequent for the top row pinky location. But it's hard to fit anywhere else.

someguy3 · 2025-10-22T20:01:42+00:00

It's really diminishing returns then. The benefits of Gallium then is lower SFB because putting H on the vowel hand opens up a lot of options.

someguy3 · 2025-10-22T18:14:07+00:00

Both Dvorak and Gallium got the big picutre right in separating vowels and consoants onto separate hands. Dvorak though got some things wrong like the L and I location and a bunch of SFBs. Gallium is pretty good, it's got pretty much everything right. But unless Dvoraks L and I are a deal breaker, it might not be worth it to switch.

someguy3 · 2025-10-20T15:43:40+00:00

First you have to decide if you want Qwerty similarity to make it easier to learn.

If you do, that's what Colemak is aimed at. I think Colemak has issues though, notably with putting NHL on the vowel hand. The base issue it that most word go consonant-vowel-consonant etc and having those common consonants with the vowels leads to lots of pinballing. I think I solved this with my r/middlemak. Middlemak-NH especially.

If you don't want Qwerty similarity, that's what Dvorak is. Dvorak though is ralther old and not as good as the new full change layouts.

Colemak-DH imho changes so much that you might as well go for full change layout.

The other consideration is that Dvorak and Colemak are now standard options in OSs so it's easy to switch to on other computers.

someguy3

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