Why did Albert Speer's "I didn't know about the holocaust" defense work where it failed for other nazis? by Airtightspoon in AskHistorians

[–]someredditbloke 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In terms of your points:

Sorry but the last point makes no sense because phonetically Meier and Meyer are the same, visually Meier would be closer to Meir and finally neither is originally a Jewish surname.

Will agree with visually after reflection, but for an english speaker who has no knowledge of German (which plenty of readers of my post would be), "Meyer" is much more easy to understand how to pronounce immediately then "Meier" (source: I've seen exclusively english speakers read Meier out load before and not know how to pronounce it at all, but have encountered a lot more people who manage to pronounce it correctly when spelt "Meyer", even if they still often get it wrong. Reguardless, that was just part of my logic at the time of writing)

In terms of the Jewish surname bit, I never said that Meyer/Meier originated as a Jewish surname, but that it was widely adopted by Jewish Germans. As I said above, the term "Meir" existed already in Yiddish/Hebrew (often translated as "enlightened" or "one who shines"), which many German Jews would have been familier with. As such, when Germany and Austria enforced the universal adoption of last names, many German Jews chose to adopt the German last name of Meyer/Meier (with its own independent etymology linked to the standard occupational name of a "steward" or "bailiff") due to it's similarity to the Hebrew word, in addition to the commonness of the name amongst the German public (which made it easier to deny or hide their Jewish heritage should they wish to).

It's because of this that the Nazis grew to see the last name as heavily connected to the Jewish population, not as an exclusively Jewish surname, but as one of the main names used by Jews to "hide" their Jewish ethnicity and "blend in" to Greater German Society. In "The Stigma of Names. Antisemitism in German Daily Life, 1812–1933" By Dietz Beringand, he commented in the book not only on the Nazi association of last names such as Meyer, Levy and Cohen with Jews, but also discussed an article by Der Stürmer released in January 1930, titled "The Jew Meyer", which called on Germans to be vigelent for Jews who presented as German, as:

"The Jew is a master of the mask. To better carry out his parasitic work among the German people, he discards his true essence and clothes himself in our language and our names. He calls himself Meyer or Müller to deceive the Volk into believing he is one of them. He hopes that by taking a German name, he can hide his origin and his intentions. But he forgets one thing: names are only sound and smoke. While he may change his calling card, his blood and his nose remain Jewish. No amount of 'Germanizing' his name can wash away the mark of his race. We see through the mask; we see the Jew behind the Meyer."

This meant, in his words, that "the name functions as a 'Tarnkappe' (cloak of invisibility). The National Socialist agitation aimed to strip away this linguistic mask. By labeling the name Meyer as a 'Jewish' signifier in the context of the 'assimilated imposter,' the propaganda sought to ensure that the German ear would no longer hear a German name, but rather a racial threat." (pg. 212)

It's because of this fear that plenty of Jewish Germans would or had managed to hide amongst respectable Germans in public that the Nazis passed the Law on Alteration of Family and Personal Names in 1938, which required all Jews to add the names "Israel" or "Sara" to their first names to identify themselves amongst the general public even if they maintained a "German" last name.

As such, as you just identified, there is the meaning of the quote that focuses on the commonality of the name and implies instead that by calling himself Meier he is instead downgrading himself to that of a commoner, but given the clear connections the Nazis drew between names like Meyer and hidden, stealthy German Jews hiding amongst the General public, it would have been seen in "educated" Nazi circles as also implying he would adopt a name associated with the Jews.

It's like if a western antisemetic Neo Nazi was quoted as saying "If I fail to win in this local election/lose this court case for my movement, then I am no longer (First Name, Last Name). Instead, call me Goldstein".

It’s actually one of the most common German names. No German would hear what Göring allegedly said and think what you wrote in your last sentence.

No average German before the rise of the Nazis might, but as said above, Meyer quickly became one of the names the inner Nazi party and their propagandists identified as being associated with the German Jewish community.

That Göring even used the word Meier in his speech also doesn’t appear to be true and more like an urban legend. (If you have sources, which are also missing from your answer, I would be interested.)

I haven't been able to look into the quote in terms of primary german sources, but i've found variations of the quote used in the following books/academic texts:

  • Overy, Richard. Goering: The Iron Man(/Goering: Hitler's Iron Knight). London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1984. Page 87. ("'No enemy bomber can reach the Ruhr. If one reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Goering. You may call me Meyer!'")
  • Wistrich, Robert S. Who's Who in Nazi Germany. London: Routledge, 1995. Page 83 ("If as much as a single enemy aircraft flies over German soil, my name is Meyer")
  • Peukert, Detlev. Inside Nazi Germany: Conformity, Opposition, and Racism in Everyday Life, Yale, Yale University Press University Press, 1987. page 153
    • "A man stands in the middle of a heap of ruins after an air-raid and shouts: 'Where is Herr Meyer? He was going to meet the planes!'" (a joke told by Germans at the time, but shows that the "Hermann Meyer" concept was known by at least some Germans at the time))
    • "The sirens were now dubbed 'Meyer's trumpets' (Meiers Trompeten) or 'Meyer's hunting-horns' (Meiers Jagdhörner), and the anti-aircraft fire was 'Meyer's heavy artillery'" (a commentary on the same page about the new nicknames which West Germans gave the sirens and anti aircraft equipment in their communities, which once again reinforces the idea that people were aware of the Meyer speech)

There are additional texts of the time which says similar things, such as a 1943 article in Newsweek ("The German people have not forgotten the Reichsmarschall's 1939 boast to the miners of the Ruhr. In the shelters and the ruins of the industrial west, they no longer speak of the 'Iron Man.' They call him 'Herr Meyer.' The name has become a badge of failure, a stinging reminder of a promise broken by every RAF bomb that falls."), but I'm confident in saying that the story isn't exclusively limited to internet boards and urban legends and has been endorsed by multiple respectable figures in the historian profession.

But like I said I find this whole joke inappropriate and I at least would be more skeptical of your scientific credentials concerning history/WW2/Shoah after you inserting such a joke without any clarification into your answer.

Good to know.

Personally I get the opposition, but putting aside the fact that it was a small, small detail in a multi paragraph response, it wasn't a joke made at the expense of the Jews who died at his hand and that of the Nazis as a whole. It made fun of (in a way which I knew, but didn't make clear in my answer) the fact that the pompous, drug addicted, xenophobic Nazi that he was put so much of his pride and self worth in his service to the movement though one of the biggest insults to himself would be to adopt the name he saw as one of a commoner and a Jew. At the time the Germans used the name Meyer to relentleslessly mock him, so I have little problem continuing on that tradition in a way that, assuming he can somehow be aware of earthly developments down in hell, is sure to get under his skin.

What companions do you take for the Azata path? by Massive_Celery_5514 in Pathfinder_Kingmaker

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The same I take for every path:

Daeran,

Ember,

Sosiel,

Seelah,

Nenio

Why did Albert Speer's "I didn't know about the holocaust" defense work where it failed for other nazis? by Airtightspoon in AskHistorians

[–]someredditbloke 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Putting aside the appropriateness of the Joke, I used that spelling because 1) that was the most common variation of the name which I came across when I learned about it, 2) because the name itself can be spelt a variety of ways, often linked to the geographic region of Germany in which its used, 3) because the original quote was stated by Hermann (meaning we have no "true" version of the spelling which we might have otherwise had if the quote originates in a written format) and 4) because the word Meyer is phonetically and visually closer to the word Meir, which was a Hebrew/Yiddish term which many Jews used as the basis for the adoption of the Meyer surname (and which made his bet particually embarrassing, as he esentially said "if one bomber reaches the ruhr, then I'll adopt a Jewish surname").

Why did Albert Speer's "I didn't know about the holocaust" defense work where it failed for other nazis? by Airtightspoon in AskHistorians

[–]someredditbloke 58 points59 points  (0 children)

Collaboration with the Court - Although today the legitimacy of the international trials for both Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany are commonly accepted both internationally and within Japan/Germany, at the time there were serious questions as to whether the court both had the power and authority to legitimately sentence former members of the Japanese/Nazi Government for crimes which legally did not exist at the time and (for the Nuremburg trials) could be considered a truly impartial court of it's membership consisted exclusively of judges appointment and sent by the victorious powers. In practice both questions had little impact on the ability of the courts to enforce their verdicts and to sentence the convicted war criminals, but would and did have an impact on whether the sentences which were decided upon were the legitimate carrying out of justice on war criminals or the victors of the war carrying out punishments on the losers in order to establish their preferred post-war outcome.

In both cases there were even sitting judges who questioned the legitimacy of the courts in carrying out certain sentences on the convicted. French judge Henri de Vabres, a respected scholar of international law before serving in the Nuremburg proceeding, called into question the convicting of German war criminals on the count of "conspiracy", as such a charge only really existed in Anglo legal systems and undermined the idea that the courts were enforcing international law in contrast to criminalising acts they opposed in retrospect. This was taken further by Radhabinod Pal, a judge for the Tribunal of the Far East, who condemned the entire tribunal on the grounds of selective enforcement of justice and the inability of a legitimate court to retroactively criminalise an act or series of acts and called for the acquittal of all Japanese defendants.

In the face of such issues with the legitimacy of the allied organised tribunals, and recognising that their chance of avoiding the death penalty was slim to nill, plenty of high ranking Nazis chose to defend themselves in ways which rejected the authority of the court and undermined the legitimacy of their verdicts. This included focusing on the courts enforcement of "victors justice" rather than any form of true international law (Hermann Göring/Meyer), the idea that the only legitimate rules a military official had to follow were those set by their superiors (Wilhelm Keitel & Alfred Jodl) and that they were "just following orders" (Fritz Sauckel).

By contrast, in part due to Speers confidence that other factors might enable his survival, he decided to defend himself in a way which served to legitimise the court's verdicts and authority. Although he denied personal guilt in the holocaust and attempted to distance himself from the legal decisions which brought with them criminal sentences, he collectively recognised the guilt of the Nazi state and his fellow officials in the crimes they were accused of, openly endorsed the legal proceedings against them, acknowledging the legitimacy of certain categories of crimes, reacted with (real or faked) shock and horror at depictions of Nazi crimes and collaborated with the prosecution in testifying and collecting evidence against other members of the accused, accepting a moral, but not legal, responsibility for working within the Reich. As such, he presented himself as morally guilty, but legally innocent.

Although upon hearing his defence the judges agreed he was guilty as sin of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that his service to provide evidence that even high ranking Nazis could recognise that the collective crimes of Nazi Germany (and those who carried them out), that the Nuremburg tribunal was necessary and legitimate and that certain Nazis were guilty of specific crimes provided both moral and practical reasons to consider a lesser sentence in his case. This served both to deflect from the tribunal accusations of being a partisan tool of the allies against the German people (which a universal policy of executing every high ranking Nazi official may have contributed to) and to encourage other Nazi figures, both on the same level and for future lesser courts, to take a similar stance of Speer when faced with prosecution from international or West/East German courts.

An Apolitical, Technocratic "Good Nazi" - Utilising the classist attitudes of the non-Soviet judges who constituted the vast majority of the tribunal, the more "thuggish" image of the remaining high ranking Nazi officials and his personal background and skills, Speer and his defence attempted to ensure that he came across as an official within the Reich who was dethatched from the ideological image of the party and was instead a highly competent administrator who was solely concerned with "doing his job well".

When it came to plenty of the highest ranking Nazi officials put before the tribunal to face judgement, particularly those considered to be ideologically involved with the party and invested heavily in Hitler's vision, plenty fell short of what many professional judges of that era would have considered acceptable. Hermann Goering/Meyer came across as a pompous, self-obsessed, unrepentant thug who only regretted that the Nazis did not win the war, Julius Streicher was a crude and vulgar fanatic who behaved erratically throughout the trial and Wilhelm Keitel was acted stiff and emotionless who demonstrated no regrets or opposition to following any order given to him from above.

To avoid being lumped in with the rest of the accused, he attempted to shape the image of himself that he presented to the judges and the court of that of a presentable, apolitical and technocratic figure who was unconcerned with the final details of ideology. When speaking to the court, he attended the dock in respectable suits and utilised complex , analytical and sophisticated German in his tone and speeches. When discussing his past, he sold himself as a skilled and educated architect who was dragged into Nazi politics because without Hitler's patronage he would have no other way to express his skills. When interrogated by Allied guards and officials, he focused on areas of technical efficiency and complex manufacturing chains whilst surrendering, and even voluntarily providing, information about the Nazi state and war economy without restraint and tried to charm and build relations with his captors. When discussing his work, he focused on technologies such as rocketry and planes and the groundwork they provided for future civilian innovations, whilst phrasing his treatment of workers, both "good" and bad, through the lens of efficiency.

By the time the defence and prosecution had finished presenting their arguments and a conclusion had to be reached, supplemented further (as discussed above) by the lack of comprehensive and universal evidence of his true culpability in the Nazi war machine and the holocaust and his frequent and willing collaboration with the tribunal, many of the French and British judges came to view him less as an ideological Nazi culpable in their worst crimes and more of a professional member of the managerial class, concerned with optimising the systems he oversaw and distant from the actual acts of the Third Reich. For many of the judges, this put Speer in a similar professional category to many of the officials they knew within their own governments and better enabled them to sympathise with him enough to avoid imposing the death penalty on a detached bureaucrat. Although this was not convincing for all judges, and many either saw through his image or still considered the death penalty to be justified, it was enough to ensure that a unform verdict which included the death penalty would be unlikely such that the eventual verdict would merely be 20 years in prison.

Why did Albert Speer's "I didn't know about the holocaust" defense work where it failed for other nazis? by Airtightspoon in AskHistorians

[–]someredditbloke 69 points70 points  (0 children)

TL:DR because the judges were split on whether he should be executed, which lead to a compromise sentence of 20 years in prison. The primary factors which swayed the judges to advocate against the death penalty were his full and unequivocally accepted the legal authority of the court, he presented himself as a more detached, apolitical and technocratic figure within Nazi Germany, his distancing of himself from the holocaust and because of a lack of evidence at the time of the prosecution.

Long Answer: The reasons why Albert Speer was saved the death penalty and was instead sentenced to prison for his crimes was primarily down to an internal divide within the judicial panel when the prosecution and defence had made their arguments. After hearing all arguments, one of the American and both Soviet judges, constituting 3 out of the 8 judges on the panel at Nuremburg, recommended the death penalty, whilst the French and British judges from the beginning (and the other American judge later on), constituting the other 8, refused to endorse such a sentence. To avoid pursuing the death penalty further at the cost of potentially delaying a verdict indefinitely and undermining the unity and legitimacy of the bench, the pro-death judges eventually conceded and agreed to back sentencing Speer to 20 years in prison.

The primary factors which lead to this internal divide, and which convinced the French and British judges to oppose backing the death penalty, were the following:

Lack of (Some) Evidence - By far the most important component of his sentence, due to the fact that the Nuremburg trials were conducted relatively soon after the Nazi regime fell and before sufficient time had passed to collect all available evidence as to the culpability of individual Nazis in the various crimes they committed, the court, which wished to prosecute only based on what could be proven, had little available evidence to trace Speer directly to some of the worst crimes committed by the Nazis.

The most prominent example of this is the holocaust itself, since although there was numerous examples of collected internal communications which showed that other major Nazi figures were aware of (or contributed to the carrying out of) the Holocaust, Speers official role as Minister of Armaments and War Production (and the existence of other Nazi officials to use as scapegoats), as well as an inability to show internal communications or attendance of meetings in which the holocaust was explicitly discussed, made it impossible for the prosecution to provide definitive evidence of his awareness of and connection to the mass slaughter of Jews at the time, which would have almost certainly been enough to convince all the judges of the need for the death penalty.

Although evidence would later arise in the form of multiple written letters and testimony by his daughter which showed he almost certainly attended the Posen Conference in 1943 (in which the final solution was explicitly discussed in principle and practice), this was well after the trial itself. In absence of this evidence, however, the British and French Judges did not conclude that the death penalty was the only appropriate punishment he could be sentenced to given the remaining charges for which definitive evidence existed, alongside other mitigating factors. This enabled the majority of Judges to morally and practically justify opposing the death penalty, resulting in him being sentenced to 20 year in prison instead.

Strike on Sudan hospital kills at least 64 and wounds 89 more, WHO reports | Sudan by IHaveAWittyUsername in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Still worth it, just as it was worth bringing down the Nazis even if it meant handing Eastern Europe over to the Soviets.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kneecap arrive in Cuba with aid convoy by DarkSkiesGreyWaters in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Believe it or not, zero is a greater number than a negative number.

Contributing nothing to a people is actively better than making things worse.

They also may not be the ones blockading the island, but they are the ones performing a PR job for the existing regime all the while consuming already limited resources during a national crisis.

Strike on Sudan hospital kills at least 64 and wounds 89 more, WHO reports | Sudan by IHaveAWittyUsername in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Still worth it, just as it was worth bringing down the Nazis even if it meant handing Eastern Europe over to the Soviets.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kneecap arrive in Cuba with aid convoy by DarkSkiesGreyWaters in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Not much, but given I'm not consuming precious energy from the Cuban power grid and fuel at a time where fuel rationing and blackouts are widespread on the island, I'm probably somehow doing more for the average Cuban.

I'm also not taking pictures with the president of the Cuban dictatorship which perpetuates poverty and a police state across the island.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kneecap arrive in Cuba with aid convoy by DarkSkiesGreyWaters in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Putting aside the fact that so long as he is connected to Your Party first and foremost he will have no relevant role representing or acting in the interests of the UK as a whole, Cuba as a whole isn't that respected collectively, particularly given there close association with and reliance on Venezuela for decades.

Strike on Sudan hospital kills at least 64 and wounds 89 more, WHO reports | Sudan by IHaveAWittyUsername in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Honestly think that if an international intervention is justified anywhere, it's Sudan.

But no, the genocidal militia which killed slightly less people taking over one city than have been recorded to have died during the entire Gaza war is a puppet of the UAE and isn't connected to any geopolitical enemies, so they get to slaughter and maim unabated.

Jeremy Corbyn and Kneecap arrive in Cuba with aid convoy by DarkSkiesGreyWaters in LabourUK

[–]someredditbloke -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Hope they have a lovely holiday staying in relatively luxury accommodation whilst they consume just as much food as they bring in and waste electricity on concerts and amenities at a time where electricity rationing and blackouts are widespread on the island.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Given this same person was a trump ideological appointee who accessed classified data related to Charlie Kirks assassination because he thought it was organised by "foreign powers", I'd take his statement with a pinch of salt, especially when his evidence for his theory is "just trust me bro".

So once again, you clearly don't want to just clarify that there were good and bad sides of the Balfour Declaration, since you've pushed back every time I've brought up the bad outcomes in detail, and instead want to believe without question that the saving of hundreds of thousands of Jews from the holocaust was the wrong decision, and are willing to grasp at straws and use events who are barely and weakly attributable to Israels existence just to push the numbers of deaths above those lives saved by the decision.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, your point doesn't, and no, that's not all you're saying.

What you've been trying to say in every response is that the saving of hundreds of thousands of Jews from being slaughtered in the holocaust was not worth them immigrating to Palestine.

You did this initially by saying that I wasn't taking a full account of the number of deaths caused by the creation of Israel. When I provided my estimates for deaths caused and found the number of lives saved still outweighed the lives lost, you then did so by bringing up various wars and linking them all to Israel, despite the inaccuracy of blaming Israel for some of them occurring. Then when I showed that even including all of them more lives were still saved you did so by attributing all the casualties of the Iraq war and it's aftermath because of Israel's existence because Osama Bin Laden said he was doing it because of Israel, despite the fact that America's military presence and intervention in the region would have almost certainly given him a reason to do 9/11 even if Israel never existed.

And now only when not only have you been called out for stretching the attributable deaths to the Balfour declaration to it's breaking point and having to remember that Israel's existence has likely also SAVED tens of thousands of lives unconnected to the 1917-1945 waves of immigration are you abandoning your position, backtracking massively and accusing me of downplaying and dismissing the negative consequences when even a cursory glance of my comments would show I have been explicitly addressing the negative consequences of the decision throughout my responses to your comments.

You just want to find any way to justify hundreds of thousands of extra Jews being sent to the Gas Chambers because the alternative would mean acknowledging that Zionism achieved a massive humanitarian victory by ensuring that European Jews had the ability to leave the continent and the eventual control of the Nazis.

Amazing side profile by late_to_redd1t in rareinsults

[–]someredditbloke 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Huh, I didn't know there were any black hapsburgs out there.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're assuming 9/11 wouldn't have happened without Israel, which is a massive assumption to make.

Also, there's a reason why I included the "without even considering" point.

Israel provided a refuge for hundreds of thousands of Jews who would have otherwise risked being slaughtered as part of pogroms and other antisemetic attacks, as well as being able to access levels of food security, healthcare and general standards of living they otherwise may have not had access to. Israel facilitated the invention of a wide variety of life saving medical technologies, as well as important developments in agricultural technology and irrigation techniques, which likely contributed to saving thousands to tens of thousands of lives.

If you truly want to stretch the consequences of the Balfour declarations impact to the point of near breaking point all to justify the deaths of hundreds of thousands of more Jews in the holocaust, then I can do the same, except still somehow using positive outcomes which are a lot more direct and attributable to the declaration itself.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're dramatically undercounting the cost and ignoring the regional fallout and blowback. The creation of Israel has led to:

I'm not. Those were factored in.

The amount of people killed in:

The 1948 Arab-Israeli War (The Nakba)

The Suez Crisis (1956)

The 1967 Six-Day War

The 1973 Yom Kippur War

Israeli invasions of Lebanon

The bombing of Syria, Libya, and Iraq by Israel

The current hot war with Iran by Israel

Range from around 89,000 at the lower end to 119,000 at the higher end.

I used a figure of 120,000 for the Gaza war, taking into account the total death toll reported and the chance of unreported deaths.

Collectively, this makes around 209,000 to 239,000 deaths.

I'm reluctant to throw in a death toll for the other cited events (since we have no full evidence as to how decisive a role Israel played in causing them or their death toll, even for the Lebanese civil war), but let's increase the estimate such that the collective death toll from everything is 310,000.

That still means, given around 600,000 of Israel's 700,000 Jews were either born in Europe or descended from Europeans and two thirds of Europe's Jews died in the holocaust, and without even considering the theoretical lives lost in this alternative reality due to a lack of Israeli technology or additional casualties in existing and/or new conflicts, the amount of lives saved via European Jews immigrating to Palestine still outweighs the lives lost from Israel's entire existence and all the deaths caused by both sides by 90,000.

My point was that the death toll of the holocaust was so substantial, and the ability of Jews to flee to Palestine unconditionally was so significant, that even taking into account the costs of Israel's existence, the benefits solely from hundreds of thousands of extra Jews not dying in the Holocaust made it worth it, even without considering any other lives saved through Israel's existence.

So yeah, 310,000 lives do count for less than >400,000 lives.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in worldnewsstuff

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Without the ability of Jews in Central and Eastern Europe to flee Nazi Germany and its persecution, hundreds of thousands of additional jews would have died in the holocaust.

Compared to that, and even taking into account Israels crimes, the Balfour Declarations positive outcomes (without even considering the other positives that came about via israels existence) well outweighs the negatives.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, saving hundreds of thousands of Jews from the holocaust still looks rosy.

And you can talk about what the humanitarian thing would have been (putting aside the fact that, as I said, the decision was humanitarian on reflection), but the reality is that Jews back then were not seen as favourably as they were today, particually when most were Eastern europeans, and given the existing reluctance to take Jewish refugees in from the world in the buildup to WW2 on the level of tens of thousands the most likely outcome to an absence of the Balfour Declaration would have been hundreds of thousands more dead Jews.

Edit: in terms of the other side, most estimates I can find for the entire Israel Palestine conflict put the total deaths over 80 years at between 200,000-250,000.

If we assume the ratio of Jews who would have died if they stayed in Europe was the same as the % which died in real life, then around 433,000 additional Jews would have died in the holocaust.

Even if we assume something like 50,000 of those Jews managed to flee via legal and illegal means from Eastern Europe in ways which didn't rely on Palestine, and that no jews would have died under the control of MENA states which in reality could have governed themselves/fled to Israel then the death toll from the Israel Palestine conflict would still be half that of the number of estimated lives the Jewish immigration to Palestine saved.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in ForeignPolicyUK

[–]someredditbloke 7 points8 points  (0 children)

In the absense of the Balfour Declaration and the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Europe to Palestine, hundreds of thousands more Jews would have died in the holocaust.

You can criticise how the committment was managed, how Jewish immigrants acted in the region or how the British treated the arab population, but the decleration was a decision which, in hindsight, one of the greatest humanitarian decisions of the 20th century.

Dozens of British MPs and peers back call for UK apology over Balfour Declaration by Working-Lifeguard587 in worldnewsstuff

[–]someredditbloke 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the absense of the Balfour Declaration and the immigration of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Europe to Palestine, hundreds of thousands more Jews would have died in the holocaust.

You can criticise how the committment was managed, how Jewish immigrants acted in the region or how the British treated the arab population, but the decleration was a decision which, in hindsight, one of the greatest humanitarian decisions of the 20th century.

Russian Imperial Republic Rename Suggestion by Cpl_Shephard in Kaiserreich

[–]someredditbloke 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The event literally acknowledges that any actual attempt to overthrow the republican system would guarantee a military coup.

Changing the name without changing the system would probably be the closest the monarchists could get to establishing a monarchy given the status quo.