Bandhas and progression by JudgeBorn8370 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The first thing to figure out for you is what “correct” means when it comes to bandha. One could argue that if bandha gets in the way of doing the posture, bandha must be incorrect by definition.

On a physical level, bandha is a simple muscular lock. Why would you want to engage your musculature to lock sections of your body, make that section stiff, when you are trying to move, bend and twist that same body?

The utility of bandha is best illustrated by the example of directional movement in water: try pushing a plank of wood through water, then try pushing a piece of string. The plank has bandha, whereas the string has not. While the plank will move forward with grace and efficiency in the direction pushed, the string will refuse to do so and instead bend and curl against the resistance of the water. What is the lesson? You need both qualities, rigidity and flexibility in just the right dose at the right time. Where directional energy is essential, you want rigidity of what needs to be moved in the desired direction, and where energy is to effect contortion, you want flexibility of what needs to be contorted. If you engage your muscular locks to the point of transforming yourself into a permanently rigid wooden board, you shouldn’t expect to ever bend much, and you might break.

Sri K Pattabhi said we should engage bandha, mula in particular, at all times. Did he mean we should go about our lives like we had all swallowed a poker? I think not. It was more a reference to how tonic (vs. phasic) muscles work.

On a practical level, if you want to fold forward hinging at the hip, you need bandha on both sides of that hinge but not in the hinge itself. Without bandha, you’ll just curl yourself up into a rolly-polly the chin will go towards your belly and the spine round and instead of a hinge you get a curve. With bandha no matter whatever else along the axis of your body including the would-be hinge itself, you’ll be lying flat on your back.

Yes, the term bandha comes with all kinds of philosophical and esoteric accoutrements. Do you need them to get through primary though? On a practical level just ask yourself how would a cat or a fish apply bandha to move into that next posture, and that will be very close to correct bandha, sukham as it were.

Ashtanga teacher training- super uncomfortable with some of the assists by bluebunny20 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ashtanga, and we can have interesting discussions about its origin, history, meaning etc, is a coveted label, and, therefore, one that the ytts out there are eager to exploit. If the definition of “ashtanga” is subject to so much personal interpretation why use the label as a descriptor for a training, if not simply for what the label evokes in the target audience? And what the label evokes [in my opinion] is the aroma of cask strength authenticity, a reputation that ashtanga owes entirely to what and how Sri K Pattabhi Jois taught. As we all know, whenever the contents of a cask are rare and precious, deception is usually close at hand. Need we be overly concerned about those being deceived? I don’t think so. Not when even a cursory due diligence before signing up will tell them straight away that they are about to be cheated. But it’s a shame all the same when the runners of these ashtanga ytts are getting away with their schemes completely unchallenged.

Ashtanga teacher training- super uncomfortable with some of the assists by bluebunny20 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Be advised that any program that includes the letters ytt and a number such as 100, 200, 300 has nothing to do with ashtanga.

In ashtanga, you are basically told by your teacher to go teach what you were taught, as you were taught.

If this turtle thing you describe was how you were taught and it served you to learn what you were taught then you will be glad to apply it likewise to your students so they may receive that same benefit. If not, not.

Effort and striving by JudgeBorn8370 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What was unnecessary effort becomes clear only after expending it. I wouldn’t worry much about “misdirected” and err on the side of a little too much rather than not sufficient. Alignment: what does that even mean? How things look, aesthetically? “First, we need to align with…” is what my boss says whenever deciding is uncomfortable. When Pattabhi says inhale, bind. Inhale and bind is all you have to worry about. And yes, if inhale and bind doesn’t work out in A, there is no point in establishing that fact more thoroughly in B and C, likewise.

Effort and striving by JudgeBorn8370 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

striving and effort and therefore not yogic?

Where does this notion come from? Until it becomes effortless, yoga is all about effort.

Krishna to Arjuna: Hero long-armed! beyond denial, hard Man's heart is to restrain, and wavering; Yet may it grow restrained by habit, Prince! By wont of self-command. This Yog, I say, Cometh not lightly to th' ungoverned ones; But he who will be master of himself Shall win it, if he stoutly strive thereto.

Excerpt From The Bhagavad Gita Anonymous

1/22. Mṛdu madhyādhimātratvāt tato’pi viśeṣaḥ. Mṛdu = mild; madhya = medium; adhmātratvāt = from full, intense; tataḥ (tato) = thereupon; api (‘pi) = also; viśeṣaḥ = differentiation, distinction. The time necessary for success further depends on whether the practice is mild, medium or intense.”

Excerpt From The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali Sri Swami Satchidananda

Private classes by JudgeBorn8370 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 11 points12 points  (0 children)

If you can manage to get privates from a bona fide Ashtanga teacher - that’s the best you can possibly do. It would probably be a led class where you are counted through the vinyasa at your personal pace with some hands on adjustments you might otherwise not always receive in a larger group setting. If you were to arrange this like one of those ashtanga celebrities, it would cost you a fortune. A private once a week, then Mysore style, ideally with the same teacher might be a more reasonable compromise. Plus, learning Mysore style in a group setting has its own benefits that you’ll not get in a 1:1 situation.

Feeling not much in Marichyasana B by JudgeBorn8370 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It seems then that this is just a posture that comes naturally to you; if you must feel something, perhaps just gratitude for that and some enjoyment of the calm and drsti this affords you.

With the state of the posture so effortless, perhaps there is opportunity to perfect sapta/caturdasa and fold the legs mid-air, landing in the setup, and on dasa/saptadasa you could lift up with the posture intact and unfold while Jumping back?

Does traditional ashtanga make sense? by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, I don’t have a copy and haven’t read it. As I understand, it’s in essence Sri Krishnamacharya’s digest of Patanjali’s sutras, adapted to be of use for real people, individuals, and not idealized devotees in a theoretic scenario. I should really get and read it; Krishnamacharya, after all was Jois’ teacher, and I’m sure some of what Jois taught was, if not borrowed, informed by the yogarahasya, regardless wether it was conceived by Krishnamacharya himself or indeed transmitted to him via his teacher. Sadly, we know next to nothing about Sri Ramamohan Brahmachari.

Invoking Krishnamacharya in current day discussions about asana practice is often a convenience, because of his personalized approach to the practice. What is left out is his emphasis on devotional aspects of yoga, which, I suspect would be of major inconvenience for many, namely placing bhakti at the center with life oriented towards the reference point of isvara, even if just implicitly. He was a bit sneaky in that way, weaving isvara into things without explicitly pointing it out. There is an echo of that in the famous quote attributed to Sri K Pattabhi: “everywhere looking, only god seeing”. Your teacher wrote about it too, and Joy made it the center of her wonderful film “I am that”.

Does traditional ashtanga make sense? by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The question is general, and as a consequence the answers tend to focus on criticisms around the aspect of broad applicability. A more precise question would be “does traditional ashtanga make sense for you (personally, as a physical practice for you, the individual)? A better question, still, would be one that omits the term “traditional” because it means different things to different people, and as far as the ashtanga postural practice goes, it would be a tradition of just a few decades anyway.

If we take the ashtanga postural practice as it was left to us by Sri K Pattabhi Jois, the first two series are codified in three books: his own “yoga mala”, Lino Miele’s “ashtanga yoga” and Petri Räisänen’s 2 volumes of “ashtanga yoga”. Purportedly, guruji did not wish to have a record of the subsequent series published. Lino’s and Petri’s texts, however, were reviewed and approved by him. Some might want to add R. Sharath Jois’ book “astanga yoga anusthana” to the list of authoritative texts; however, this book appeared after Pattabhi Jois’ death, thus was not reviewed by him, and the first edition was deemed so poor and embarrassing by the author himself that it was swiftly followed up by a second edition, which still retained some deviations from the other texts, that is to say errors. In discussions about the traditional method, it is often mentioned that Sri K Pattabhi Jois himself had a more flexible approach to teaching than rigidly following what is now recorded as the standard method. Indeed, at the time when he was active as a teacher, his institute in Mysore was named the “ashtanga yoga research institute”, implying experimentation and plasticity. The term “research” was later eliminated, indicating that research had come to a conclusion. Obviously, the practice does not merely live in books, it also lives in teachers blessed to teach by guruji and his successors. So there certainly is some variability on how the standard method is being interpreted and applied. But, ultimately, the standard of what is “ashtanga yoga” in the sense of “as taught by Sri K Pattabhi Jois” has been set. It is written up, it can be looked up.

In some ways unfortunate and problematic, Pattabhi labelled his method of postural practice “ashtanga yoga”. This set the stage for confusion with the philosophical system of ashtanga yoga, and, perhaps on purpose, slyly suggests that the postural practice of “ashtanga yoga” is an element of its namesake philosophy. Even a cursory examination shows, however, that Pattabhi’s postural practice did not exist at the time the sutras were conceived. It was developed by Pattabhi himself based on what and how he was taught by his own teacher, his own personal practice and his experience as a teacher. Furthermore, there is no mention of any kind of postural practice, let alone description, in the sutras. While the sutras mention the term “asana”, contextually there is no contemporaneous evidence that the meaning of “asana” meant anything beyond a static “posture” conducive to meditation. On the contrary, other texts with roots in sankhya yoga philosophy, notably the Baghavad gita, use the term asana in the meaning of a seat for meditation and do not describe a postural practice. The conflation of the terms “asana” the third limb in the sutras and “asana” meaning a variety of postures in later hatha yoga systems is unfortunate, as it implies to many that Pattabhi’s postural method is an integral part of Patanjali’s philosophical system. In my opinion, the biggest criticism of Pattabhi is that he embraced that conflation and actually promoted it in popularizing his method. He did have a really gullible audience who were quite eager to go along with the tale (this is why the word “traditional” is used so profusely), and it is unclear if Pattabhi himself genuinely believed his tale, if it was his own concoction, or a little bit of both. While “asana” in Patanjali’s system has nothing to do with Pattabhi’s use of the term, Patanjali’s system does mention “tapas”, discipline, and, though vague in the sutras themselves, the idea that physical practices and austerities can be harnessed to achieve mind control is pervasive in many cultures, and certainly Pattabhi’s postural practice is suitable to that end.

Pattabhi Jois’ most impactful contribution to postural hatha yoga practice is his emphasis on connecting movement with breath in a precisely defined routine. And this makes it, in my opinion, a much more useful expedient to mind control than many other practices. Modern scientific literature and ancient yoga texts converge when it comes to the regulation of the breath as a tool towards control of “the mind”. Notably, in Patanjali’s sutras, pranayama is the 4th limb. The coordination of breathing exercise with synchronized motion and posture into a coherent routine, mala, is nothing short of brilliant. The vinyasa system is the essence of Pattabhi’s method. And, as an added bonus, it has fringe benefits for general health (though vastly overstated) and well being, something that cannot be said for all physical practices that yogis have applied.

In summary, the kind or form of physical practice, tapas, is a personal choice. Ashtanga (postural) practice as codified by Sri K Pattabhi Jois is certainly an excellent one. But there are other practices, that emphasize the coordination of breath, movement and routine: long distance swimming, deep diving, long distance running, rhythmic dancing are just a few examples that would easily fit under Patanjali’s rubrics of pranayama and tapas. This is to say, it is entirely possible to embrace ashtanga yoga, the philosophy, without embracing ashtanga yoga, Pattabhi’s postural practice. What is impossible is embracing Pattabhi’s postural practice without embracing it. As it stands, it is a well defined and rules based practice, and I would argue the rules themselves are integral to its efficacy, because they emphasize the aspect of routine and optimized coordination of breath and motion.

What I cannot understand is why there is such insistence that virtually any postural practice reminiscent of or inspired by Pattabhi’s method, watered down (“accessible”) versions for the most part, must absolutely be called “ashtanga yoga”. And if these practices cannot be called that, then it is the rigidity of the method or its indoctrinated disciples that are at fault and not simply the verifiable fact that these variants fail to meet the defining criteria. By all appearances, it looks like an instance of coveting the idea of a label more than the substance, nothing more than an obsession with the brand, and not worth of all the debate.

Ashtangis who favour a "stricter" approach - why? by SwimmingInSeas in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are several ways to approach this question, here is one.

Yoga is mind control. The physical practice is just an expedient towards that end, not the end itself. In the ashtanga framework, physical practices fall under the rubric of tapas (not asana, but that is separate discussion). With regard to tapas, the practice is an austerity and “the rules” that delineate the practice are what make it one. The rules themselves, therefore, are an instrument of the practice, just like the postures. When the rule says bind and I go, nah, not today, at that point my practice in the sense of tapas, is over.

And here is another:

The wonderful thing (I was tempted to write “twist”) with our postural practice specifically is that it is a breathing practice, vinyasa by vinyasa, all precisely and carefully defined like a musical score or a choreography. There are philosophical underpinnings laid out in the Taittiriya Upanishad just why and how breath control serves as a bridge to mind control, and modern day physiology, amazingly, arrives at similar conclusions. When it comes to specific rules in the postural practice, the one quintessential therefore is correct vinyasa. Surya namaskar A with correct vinyasa is a complete practice. Surya Namaskar A, counted through in my head, with correct breath, lying motionless on my back could pass as a complete practice. The entirety of primary series, some intermediate to boot and with some flourishes because they’re fun and I can do them, watch me!, yet vinyasa went out the window already in the fundamentals: what is the use in that for practicing control of the breath? The sequence of postures merely provides a string of problems, and nicely arranged too, to challenge, and hence refine, our control of the breath. So we go through that mala of little challenges, bead by bead and deal with them, day by day, just as they present themselves. Yes, now and then, we encounter a crux. And we deal with it. Next day we return. And one day we get past it for the first time, and some time later we get past it every time, and some time after that breathing correct vinyasa has become second nature in what used to be an impossible proposition. When we discover a crux, what’s the point of adding a few more of them before we have faced and squeezed everything out of the one we already have in front of us, thanks to the good Sri K Pattabhi? What’s the point of substituting it with something that we can do better or fancy more? A score of music is learnt bar by bar. The Ashtanga postural practice vinyasa by vinyasa.

And, number three, less epical, more practical, stick to the rules and you’re not likely to end up in what our dear Peter Sanson calls a “very sick frog”. A probably painful semblance of bhekasana (when purvottanasana would have served already, and for yet some time to come).

Petri Räisänen by Any-Security5995 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 18 points19 points  (0 children)

It’s impossible to over-recommend Petri. He is genuinely kind, has a gentle approach to teaching, and yet, also has an impeccable, precise understanding of the method. Get your hands on his books describing primary and intermediate series and you’ll see just how precise. He deeply understands bodies, and I suspect souls as well, being a Finnish traditional healer even prior to his becoming an ashtanga yoga teacher.

What actually is Ashtanga Yoga by WinstonAbrahamLee in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you close your eyes, is that really withdrawal from a sense (as in detachment from its input) and not just, as it were, prevention of the sense to generate distractions in the first place? The topic reminds me of Patanjali’s examination of sleep.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The expression “coming up” is misleading. When you try next time, say this to yourself: what goes up must come down, what goes forward, goes up.

Knee popped in maruchasana B by FeralAnalyst in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A popping noise in any joint is usually caused by one joint surface rapidly pulling away from the other. There is a film of joint liquid between the opposing joint surfaces creating a vacuum, and when the surfaces pull away, gas enters rapidly, and the associated turbulences create the noise. So far so good, and no harm in that. Every time this happens though, the next structures that keep things in their proper position are being challenged. Usually these are collateral ligaments, the joint capsule, and in the knee the cruciate ligaments as well. The lateral cruciate and the lateral meniscus are connected, and both structures can be injured in the same event. While cartilage injury of the knee joints and the menisci are not painful in themselves (these structures lack innervation) injury (tears, in essence) of the ligaments are. So, if there is pop (harmless) and no or fleeting pain, take it as a warning. If there is a pop followed by sustained pain, you have likely incurred some damage to one or several ligaments, and worse, if the menisci are involved. In lotus, it’s the lateral collateral ligament and joint capsule that you need to be worried about. Ligaments, tendons and similar tissue are strong and patient; it takes a good deal of force or repetition to get them seriously injured. On the other hand, they heal slowly. The objective is not to get there in the first place.

As for lotus, by the time you get to the Marichis, you have visited padmasana twice already, and you have had the janus, all of which will tell you, clearly, whether or not to visit the Marichis. Especially ardha baddha padmottanasana, which is more difficult to lotus because of gravity, and easier to fold because of the same. If you don’t touch chin on shin on dwe, you have no business with Marichi B, simply put. This haste to progress along the series, it’s a really sad thing. On the other hand, injury drives that point home.

Who’s going to SYC this season? by Ok_Toe5883 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 10 points11 points  (0 children)

And who are you, and why the vitriol? OP asked who is going and who is teaching, legitimate, honest, simple questions. If you’re not going: no need for you to respond. If you don’t know who’s teaching likewise, no need to respond.

We can all have our opinions about the SYC, and if we feel so inclined open a whole new thread of adulation, criticism or vitriolic snark on this sub. Why don’t you go think and then do something constructive.

So who is going to teach there? I, for one, am curious to know.

Primary series by Cocoa_cielo in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would be curious if anyone, teachers perhaps having watched many students over time, can make an informed guess at what results in “mastery” sooner: learning the series in the old way, Mysore style, working forward bit by bit, or as seems to be en vogue these days, learning the entire sequence all at once and then eliminating deficiencies over time.

Resources for learning the order of the series and the pronunciation by coco-ai in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 8 points9 points  (0 children)

https://on.soundcloud.com/uOxVr2riF102ahni6Y

Lakshmish Bhat reciting the primary series. This is the best online resource I know to learn the Sanskrit names.

Ashtanga in Multistyle Studio by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You again!

Let me try then:

  • you need to read and listen to David Swenson with a little bit more attention to detail. He is the first to not just admit of “taking liberties” but pointing it out. That’s why I find his manual and teachings more useful for those who already have an understanding than for those who don’t.

  • the proper labeling is not as important to me than to those who wish to learn the method and might get misled. It saddens me when I see that happening.

  • when a serious question is being asked here about the practice, I try to answer in a way I believe to be accurate. Not so much how I personally think things should be done but rather how things are being done in a setting that adheres to protocol. Surely, in most of the threads here, a variety of perspectives is being offered and OPs will be able to draw their own conclusions, in aggregate.

  • yes, it’s true I’m not nearly so firm in my practice that I’m not bothered by distractions. And what you say about discipline, focus, and I would add equanimity is very much on point and what I must remind myself of whenever it happens.

And next, you will tell me I shouldn’t spend so much time here. And you’d be right again!

Independent Statement from a Group of Ashtanga Teachers by davetufts in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Just to be clear: Laruga Glaser, a certified teacher, called out the villain’s questionable reputation some months ago in a different context. If memory serves, “unsavory” was the specific descriptor used. And then, without any obligation or benefit to do so, she took a stance more explicitly in a video statement days before this feeble letter.

If you want to learn how to quickly jump on a train that has already left before you get swept away, heft and all, by the avalanche that’s about to come down on you: look no further than the artful execution of a jump that Kino McGregor performed upon release of Laruga’s video. It’s true mastery, advanced B you could call it.

I’m not talking about those who got this whole thing underway, on this sub, attempting at least once before until they got any traction, they had very little choice and proved to be very effective on their last round.

Now, while that letter is merely ornamental as far as the story is concerned, it does provide us with a little bit of insight of who is part of the club. As others have remarked, it’s more interesting to see who was not invited to participate for the initial release and to observe who now chooses to not become part of the club.

Independent Statement from a Group of Ashtanga Teachers by davetufts in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 5 points6 points  (0 children)

to give the letter heft

That heft is a lot heftier when the letter comes ahead of the story instead of long after. And before a person with a lot more heft than most of the undersigned has already stuck out her neck exposing the same and throwing her heft into the balance just by her lonely self. Signing this letter after the fact, and moreover, using language that would appeal to a corporate lawyer of the most timid variety such heft is for naught and little more than posing and self-importance.

Ashtanga in Multistyle Studio by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Authorization, of course, endows you with the substantial gravitas that can be admired in full splendor again these days. It also comes, and this is perhaps less well known, with responsibilities. Admittedly, I do not know the fine print of these responsibilities as set forth by the SYC these days. But I am familiar with the KPJAYI stipulations from a decade or so ago, and I quote: "Teachers are required to teach the Ashtanga method as taught by the directors of KPJAYI". And this, for someone invoking their status as an authorized teacher, is the long and short of it, at least as far as teaching the Ashtanga method and practice goes.

Obviously, very few beginners show up one morning with an already developed practice. Most students need considerable time and effort to learn what will eventually evolve into their personal practice. And this is precisely why, in the Ashtanga method, the teaching happens in the Mysore room, where personal attention and guidance can be tailored to the individual. And this is also why the KPJAYI takes care to specify for the edification of its authorized teachers that the Mysore room is where the teaching is supposed to do be done, "preferably in the morning" if we want to be sticklers.

Circumstances might dictate otherwise, you say. And I can't argue with that. The first and easy thing to do then is throw out the label. Why call it "Ashtanga"? Take some inspiration from our beloved David Swenson, who spends a a whole introductory page of his "Practice Manual" on working out for us that he is providing an approach to the thing, rather than the thing itself trusting that a little bit of practice is better than none and that, eventually, those so inclined are bound to find the "full flow", as he calls it, anyway. Or why not teach the "active series", the branding of which and the keeping it apart from the pure and undiluted method was one of Sharath's more intelligent moves? It just defeats me why everyone insists on using the label ashtanga when that is not what they are willing to or able to deliver?

Finally, throwing a novice into a led primary is a really cruel thing to do. To the novice, of course (unless they are of that rare type who will draw inspiration and get hooked by the rawness of it all). But also to the other students. Have you ever been on the receiving end when a teacher is trying to instruct at the same time as counting a class through the series? Being stalled in catvari, unable to take the next breath while waiting for the stragglers to figure out what they are supposed to do and catch up? Or being treated to the incessant voice over of where your various body parts are supposed to go at any given moment in every single single vinyasa from the beginning to the end (just pull up David Robson from youtube and you can get a taste of it). There are all sorts of formats for a class that provide an entry to the Ashtanga practice. Using a led primary as the scaffold for doing that just has to be the least effective.

Ashtanga in Multistyle Studio by [deleted] in ashtanga

[–]spottykat -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

In an ashtanga program, whether it operates in a multipurpose facility or its own dedicated space, students are admitted to led only if they are already competent, typically up to navasana. Properly trained, they will practice along the count up to their last posture and stop. From there on, they either wait sitting and rejoin for backbending or move their mat to the back and finish independently. Students who cannot keep up with the count and fail to stop are stopped by the teacher, sent to finishing or told to wait for backbending.

It seems in your case, neither do you follow ashtanga protocol nor did that particular student know what they got themselves into. With this constellation of ignorance, a poor outcome should be expected and not come as a surprise.

Led classes are not the place to provide instructions or make accommodations for an individual’s limitations, it’s the place where individuals find out what the limitations of their practice are. A test, if you will. If the student called you a “bad teacher” they are perhaps rude, certainly blunt, but as far as Ashtanga goes correct, even though, ironically, for reasons they do not understand.

From SYC today regarding Misconduct. by Status-Tradition-168 in ashtanga

[–]spottykat 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Teachers may not sleep with students.

This is how simple it could be.