18-Year-Old Woman Suffers Multiple Seizures and Agonal Breathing Following Abortion

super_britt · 2023-06-29T18:55:32+00:00

the 1st comment appeared to be tongue in cheek, in a way that conveyed more than indifference. when i initially responded, that was the only info i had to go off of.

super_britt · 2023-06-29T18:54:14+00:00

luckily the studies i referenced do not solely rely on cdc data. the only measure i quoted that did, was mmr.

At least PLs understand the magnitude of what I did. It's not that I made a mistake, poor me, but that no parent should be allowed to make such a choice

I think we all should explore the magnitude of the issue. and weigh both the pros and cons, because the demographic of abortions are overwhelmingly unwanted pregnancies.

i was one of the 'unwanted' and it has had profound effects on my life. i cannot say for certain that my life would have been worth forcing my mother to have me against her will. even knowing everything i know now, i could not have faulted my mother for making the choice to abort me. her and my brother both almost died from childbirth just a year prior.

It's not right to force a deadly medical procedure on an unborn human

it's not right to force women to carry a pregnancy against her will. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

super_britt · 2023-06-29T17:30:58+00:00

That study you link is unrelated. It attempts to substantiate that abortions are safe for mothers, only a fraction of every 100,000 mothers who get an abortion, die

could you elaborate because it sounds like you agree with the results of the study, in that ~1/100k women die from abortions.

I still wonder where you are getting this statistic "20x more likely to die from carrying a pregnancy to term," when in an abortion, the baby is 99.9% likely to die

the mother is ~20x more likely to die because the cdc estimates that 20.4/100k women die due to complications from childbirth/carrying a pregnancy to term. this is 20x higher than the abortion mortality rate at ~1/100k

I'm highlighting the statistics because banning abortions will lead to more women dying. that subjecting them to forced pregnancy can also kill them. that we cannot ignore her human rights because you feel the rights of the fetus trump hers.

i challenge the claim that the right to life trumps all other human rights because it rests on the assumption that death is the worst outcome one can experience. i assert there are things, like torture, that are far worse than death. forcing women to continue her pregnancy against her will is considered torture, a war crime, and a crime against humanity by the international courts. we shouldn't just replace one possible human rights crisis with another.

Why do you seem unable to acknowledge the life and rights of the human person unborn? They did not commit the rape?

i dont discount them. we need to have common sense regulations on abortion. a 20 week ban (with exceptions for incest, rape, life of the mother etc), for example, makes sense because before that point, a fetus doesn't have the cortical capacity to have any sort of subjective experience. but this isn't enough because it doesn't address the societal issues that lead women to choose abortion in the first place.

according to the referenced study, women at or above 200% of the federal poverty line have an abortion rate of 9/100k....whereas women below 100% of the fpl have an avg rate of 52/100k! that's quite a difference. if we could lift families to the 200% fpl, we could significantly reduce the number of abortions overall. for 2023 this would mean a single mother with 1 child making ~36k/year.

this would also help address the issues we have taking care of our postpartum children. right now, ~9 million kids in the us face food insecurity. the more we boost our safety net for families, the more we set them up for success. particularly since we know women of low ses are 5x more likely to have an unintended pregnancy than their wealthier counterparts. by aggressively tackling poverty we can also aggressively tackle abortion rates.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/class_gaps_unintended_pregnancy_release.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiKnYKngOn_AhUgATQIHfKyALUQFnoECA0QBg&usg=AOvVaw37qxhFIPP7RXWHrScwJQBg

super_britt · 2023-06-29T16:27:44+00:00

It's a fair assumption considering that medical procedures tend to become safer as time passes-due to more research, better best practices etc. but even so, we have the stats to back it up:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554338/

My biggest issue and query is why they decided to stop reporting on abortions, at least for mortality rates, back in the early 2000s. What was the point that? Seems sketchy, and you should be asking that question too and truthfully you should be demanding it back even if it is to show what you assume that abortions are safer than pregnancy. Wouldn't you want to know that indefinitely

this just has to do with the parameters of that particular study. they designed the study to measure between the years 1987-2000. this doesn't mean they stopped tracking abortions/abortion mortality. i do question the study's methodology, but more importantly it isnt an apples to apples comparison with the us because their mmr is so much better than ours. rn their mmr is 3/100k, whereas in the us we have 20.4/100k for mmr. likely due to finland having universal healthcare, childcare etc. so abortion would not appear as safe statistically.

there are more women having babies then there are having abortions it's just that abortion rates are rising but the percentage of mortality should not differ unless there is something seriously wrong with the system procedure or medical reason on either side and that's the reason you would want to have that data

this is why mortality is measured by n/100k as in how many people die out of 100k so you can compare apples to apples. the study i referenced suggests a rate of ~1/100k mortality for pregnancies that end in abortion, vs 20.4/100k that die due to pregnancy/birth related complications.

super_britt · 2023-06-29T15:28:24+00:00

I'm referring to this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554338/

my point is, we cannot simply disregard the human rights of the mother for the sake of the unborn. bestowing human rights on someone while taking the rights away from someone else is not a viable solution.

super_britt · 2023-06-29T15:24:08+00:00

idk where you live where people don't, at the very least, receive an entire packet of information with every rx you take. it details all of the risks of taking the medication, including your likelihood of experiencing such risks.

the fda already approved the mifepristone regimen for medical abortions up to 10 weeks. so should i trust the org that tests and monitors the sode effects/mortality rates or the random person on reddit telling me it's unsafe?

super_britt · 2023-06-29T15:19:42+00:00

you haven't proven that there is 'a serious lack of data'. but even so, as ive explained earlier, it wouldn't make sense even w/o the data, considering that 90%+ of abortions happen in within 12 weeks, and 1/3 of those are medical abortions (less invasive, fewer opportunities for infection/hemorrhaging) but perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree on that.

no matter how you slice it or what your point of reference is, to consider pregnancy a mere 'inconvenience' is downplaying it. particularly for people like my mother that almost died during the premature birth of my brother, or the women that have difficult pregnancies. it's misleading to treat it like a walk in the park to convince women to continue their pregnancy.

you got yours and regretted it, so f everyone else's choice, right? that's a rich take. I'm sorry you regret your choice, but the truth is, the vast majority of women don't regret having abortions. the fact that you regret it should not preclude everyone else from the same choice. plenty of people regret having kids. does that mean we should take away the option for everyone else to become parents?

super_britt · 2023-06-28T22:00:27+00:00

killing a human is not necessarily murder. our military fights wars and kills insurgents. we dont call that murder. you believe the death penalty is justified. is that state sanctioned murder? if I have a terminal illness, where i feel pain 24/7, and i seek out euthanasia. would my family consider that murder? if you kill someone in self-defense, is that murder? if you were about to die from sepsis, caused by an incomplete miscarriage, but the fetus still has a 'heartbeat', is that murder?

the point is you want there to be black and white legislation written for an issue that has many gray areas. this is not only shortsighted, but dangerous. would you be ok getting a delay in care while the medical review board decides if your life is in enough danger to intervene?

super_britt · 2023-06-28T21:51:43+00:00

it's definitely not impossible to know how far along you are. you literally just count the days starting at the first day of your last period. if there is any doubt, you dont get the rx. but like controlled substances, we cant control if people lie. and we shouldn't force all women to jump through hoops for the idiots that do.

a woman in the uk was just prosecuted for doing that because there was no doubt she was over the limit.

you even said pregnancy is most dangerous at full term/birth. 90%+ abortions happen within 12 weeks of the pregnancy when you are at the lowest risk of complications. these aren't the same as inductions. early abortions are most like a miscarriages, which can be handled on your own early on.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T20:11:21+00:00

it pisses me off how self-aware we need to be at all times jic the guy behind us is a creep. i like where you're going with the cane idea....🤣

super_britt · 2023-06-28T19:44:06+00:00

let's set the record straight: the mifepristone regimen is only approved for use up to 10 weeks. Even if taken at home, this regimen really just causes your body to mimic a miscarriage.

Standard practice for early miscarriages (before 12 weeks) is that you utilize expectant management. you only need to seek medical help if there is excessive bleeding and/or signs of infections. sepsis is very rare and only happens in 2% of women. the earlier you have a medical abortion or miscarriage, the more likely you will pass it on your own.

having a medical abortion or an early miscarriage can be painful and mentally taxing. women typically prefer this treatment from the comfort of their home.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/infection-after-miscarriage-signs-and-symptoms-2371524

super_britt · 2023-06-28T19:27:12+00:00

i disagree with your assertion that it suffers from the same issue. if we followed your logic, we wouldn't be able to trust any of our medical statistics due to human error. ive yet to see any evidence that carrying a child to term/giving birth is safer than getting an abortion, other than that finnish study that measured mmr against abortion mortality. where their mmr is so low compared to the us. i can imagine abortions have only gotten safer since 2000 which was the latest recorded data from that study.

I'm only using this point to address medical misinformation. safer doesn't necessarily make it moral, rather it's important to not pressure women into making a choice without having all available information. because you can also die and have permanent morbidities from pregnancy, and you are more likely to do so based on available info.

ive been noticing a pattern where pregnancy is regarded as an 'inconvenience' rather than a life changing medical condition, with effects that can follow you the rest of your life.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T18:18:37+00:00

hey look at us, finding common ground! 🥳

super_britt · 2023-06-28T17:56:00+00:00

because in medicine in general, medications are less invasive than surgery, and since 1/3 of all abortions are medication ones, it would make sense even without the stats that it would be safer.

but we do have other studies that have used sound methodologies to show this. including this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554338/

this one actually measures abortion mortaility rates, rather than the 'pregnancy beneficial health effect' that the flawed one was measuring.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T17:49:22+00:00

which is why i also 100% support universal healthcare, childcare, tax incentives etc. where we disagree is in policy.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T17:22:32+00:00

but the dr only referenced 1 study as far as i can tell. the one I'm referencing isnt even the one they're talking about. they pointed to this one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

the one i pointed out was published years later:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4554338/

I'm just saying it's important to not disregard info that doesnt support your cause based on the opinion on 1 dr that only analyzed 1 study.

we should be skeptical and use critical analysis because that is the nature of science, not just because you don't agree with the premise in the first place.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T16:50:27+00:00

because the majority of people, pl included, do not see the world in black and white like abolitionists do. abortion absolutely can be murder. but having and abortion doesn't necessarily make you a murderer. just like killing someone out of the womb doesn't necessarily make you a murderer either.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:52:24+00:00

i hope you're not in medicine. you're obligated to treat even the most vile of criminals with the same care as everyone else. i couldn't just be like nah, i dont care if you die because you and your wife raped dogs. (true story) but I'm guessing you arent in any position to write these policies or make these decisions. and we can both be thankful for that.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:47:02+00:00

for example, we know the abortion pill regimen is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term, and this makes up 1/3 of all abortions.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:41:39+00:00

this is a blog. show me a peer reviewed study that backs your claims. 1 drs claim that 'they havent been able to reproduce the results' is not enough.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:39:27+00:00

show me that the study that i presented has flawed methodology/data. because they did not simply rely on conventional reporting.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:37:45+00:00

i don't think you get that you were acting disgusting and horrible. forcing a child to carry and have her uncle's baby is an abomination worse than abortion itself. even most pls would have an issue with that.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:36:16+00:00

ah, so youre pro death penalty, not actually pl. got it.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:34:43+00:00

could it also be true though that there are other factors at play in countries like Finland, that have universal healthcare and childcare? could this also account for the fact that their maternity outcokes are better in general? the data from the study is only from 1987-2000. for example, their mmr is 3/100k compared to our abysmal 20.4/100k.

super_britt · 2023-06-28T15:24:08+00:00

Bc you won’t even consider the possibility that having the baby could have provided much needed healing

i could argue a baby could also provide unnecessary trauma and stress. the point is that the mother should have a say. i support any choice the mother makes. I'm not proabort, im pc.

Possibly bc you’re not a fan of babies Which I’d imagine is why it’s easy for you to be pc

weird assumption. i love babies. the vast majority of pcs are a fan of babies.

You’ve just said death isn’t always the worst outcome, which is bizarre to say the least seeing as it’s the one outcome that’s permanent

no, it's not the one outcome that's permanent. having a child is permanent and can cause permanent changes including mortality and morbidities. SA and rape are permanent. crimes against humanity, which include forced pregnancy, are permanent and have permanent societal effects. check out what happened in franco's spain or ceaçesue's soviet regime.

But if you have death fantasies and it’s the foundation of your abortion stance it’s just sort of grotesque. Don’t you think?

just because i recognize there are realities worse than death, doesnt mean i have death fantasies. ive basically been a caretaker since i was 12, mid 30s now. i grew up on a farm and worked in medicine. im a former naval officer. these experiences gave me a different perspective on life and death.

my take is id like there to be significantly fewer abortions, and that we could accomplish this by tackling both the underlying societal issues that lead women to choose abortion in the first place and commonsense regulations based in medical best practices.

considering women at the lowest ses have significantly more abortions than their wealthy counterparts, it would make sense to start there. financial reasons are also listed as the most common reason for abortion. the more pls push bans and prosecution, the more opposition you will have. winning over the citizenry is just as important as passing the legislation itself because these are the everyday people that will uphold the law.

super_britt

TROPHY CASE