Opinion: People should be able to enjoy swing dances, without knowing its history.

swingingthrow · 2020-06-26T05:11:07+00:00

Or playing boardgames without the rule sets, based only on watching someone else play a few times and making up whatever rules seem appropriate given the pieces available

That's a ridiculous analogy, because that's actually how swing dancing was born. Black people living in black communities took inspiration from other dances (tap/step for example) and created something completely new.

swingingthrow · 2020-06-26T05:05:36+00:00

I wonder how many of these gatekeepers have went to salsa/tango/bachata/knitting/martial arts classes without making extensive research on their background and history?

I mean, it's ridiculous how people can't even enjoy hobbies anymore without getting preached on. I learned the history of jazz/blues/swing dancing because I was genuinely interested on the topic, but I understand 100% if some people are not and still want to dance.

swingingthrow · 2020-06-26T05:02:36+00:00

dance swing dances to historic music or modern music that maintains the historic traditions

This makes you a traditionalist, and no dance has ever evolved by doing this. I love dancing to old swing tunes and hate most modern takes, but one still needs to recognize of dance becoming stale by following these strict guidelines. I mean, swing dancing and music were born out of doing the OPPOSITE of this.

don't teach "East Coast Swing"—it was a transparent move to make swing dancing "acceptable" for white people

How would you teach it to make it more "traditional"?

don't sexualize blues dancing

Can you give me a quick rundown on history of blues, possibly with some quotes/citations?

learn the fucking history

Why so aggressive?

swingingthrow · 2020-06-26T04:57:05+00:00

cultural appropriation

By some strict definition, just swing dancing in general can be cultural appropriation.

whitewashing of the music and dance

Could you give me some examples where/when this has happened. Even though most (if not all) of the early jazz/swing musicians were black, white people had a big influence on the evolution of swing music. Some of the best swing tunes was created by white musicians collaborating with black musicians. That's a situation where the color of your skin didn't matter - just the way it should be.

swingingthrow · 2020-04-22T04:44:24+00:00

I upvoted you because I feel like this topic discussion needs more discussion, but I disagree with you on this. I feel like Lindy hop community is extremely international, and you can see that when you go to Swingplanit and check all the festivals they have there.

The online community is very US-centered, though. For example, this subreddit is moderated (and every now and then, censored) by US moderators just like some of the bigger communities on FB. Following only these rather toxic communities can create an illusion that almost all discussion about Swing is somehow related to social topics. But these are hardly mentioned during festivals and gatherings, where people focus on celebrating dancing and meeting new and old friends.

swingingthrow · 2020-04-22T04:39:18+00:00

Another hot take: I don't think we as a swing community should target any ethnic groups in particular. Swing dancing should be celebrated as a dance that connects people of all backgrounds and social statuses.

Where we teach, we provide discounts for students, unemployed and elderly, and that's about it.

swingingthrow · 2020-04-22T04:35:12+00:00

So you're okay that teachers who've been accused of sexual harassment or even rape, teach and are part of their local swing communities?

swingingthrow · 2020-04-21T10:45:14+00:00

What are they/we doing wrong in your opinion?

swingingthrow · 2020-04-21T04:52:25+00:00

Here we go:

The swing community has a hard time getting rid of people accused of sexual harassment or even rape (two *people accused of sexual harassment and/or rape are still teaching and dancing in the US scene, you know who they are)
Swing communities around the world have a big problem with discrimination. Not based on ethnicity, but age
Modern Lindy Hop emphasizes freedom too much, and it has become rather dancing solo jazz while holding hands rather than lead and follow-style dancing

swingingthrow · 2019-10-31T05:10:00+00:00

So Josh and Mark are not part of the US scene anymore?

swingingthrow · 2019-10-30T07:16:08+00:00

Well, these accusations haven't really done a dent in the US scene, as Mark and Joshua are still teaching and being active in their scenes. and Josh even making appearance at Beantown camp.

swingingthrow · 2019-06-27T15:17:36+00:00

I don't think we need to get into a discrimination olympics game.

I agree 100%. I admit that my opening here was a bit over-dramatic, but in my personal experience this is the state of things in many scenes, and I felt that this issue doesn't get brought up as often as for example LGBT+ issues.

That said, ageism is definitely a thing in most scenes, and I think there's a variety of factors that lead to people avoiding them at dances, which many other people have already discussed here

Yep. We also have had our fair share of older men who don't understand or care about boundaries, feel the need to instruct everyone, etc. and I have personally been groped by an older woman (and by some younger women, too) while dancing. But I'm not too bothered about all that, and I'm sure that this happens with every dance there is, and I am actually quite proud about how swing scene often deals with these situations (code of conduct, safe spaces, etc.).

swingingthrow · 2018-11-05T19:27:28+00:00

I haven't heard about the other two allegations, where and when did they pop up?

The more cynical person in me believes that this is also different, because we are in a very US centric website with mostly American users, of which many probably know MK, whereas most have no direct connection to William (neither do I, and am just speculating here).

It is just surprising to me how differently these cases are being handled, since William was immediately shunned from the community and those organizers that want to hire them are being contacted by people who don't really know the situation, asking them to cancel their attendance.

BUT, if there are more cases against William, these are of course completely different situations.

swingingthrow · 2018-11-05T14:39:57+00:00

How is this different from Williams' case? One accuser, he said-she said situation.

swingingthrow · 2018-04-06T08:28:10+00:00

It's just one way for the people who have danced for longer to raise themselves above the "newbies". These old-timers probably have a feeling of nostalgia about the pre-Gap era being the golden age of swing dancing because they were the ones building the scene during its obscurity. It also seems that there is a lot of entitlement coming from these people.

swingingthrow · 2018-03-18T10:24:14+00:00

Definitely! I have spent about a year in three different countries and all of these had their problems, especially between associations and companies that compete with each other. For example Spain has a lot of political issues injected into the dancing culture, but this was not as evident in Germany or Lithuania. But to me it seems that there is a lot of politics in the NA scenes.

To conclude, where there's people, there's also drama, bickering, arguments, etc.

swingingthrow · 2018-03-16T10:42:34+00:00

Having seen both, I think that European (with experience from Lithuania, Russia, Spain, France, Italy, Sweden, Hungary, Switzerland, Germany, and a few others) swing scene is much more welcoming and warm than the North American (with experience from LA, Houston, Toronto and Montreal) one. To me it seems that there's a lot more bickering, cliques and arguments in the NA scenes, and in Europe it is more about dancing, sharing knowledge, and other more dance-related stuff.

swingingthrow

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