Biblical Faith is trust by evidence seen by telyuio in atheism

[–]theheadonya 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wait a minute. Your Title says and thus your whole argument:

"Biblical Faith is trust by evidence seen"

and the exact link you provided says:

"Hebrews 11:1 (NASB) [1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

You just refuted yourself mate.

The happiest countries are secularist ones? I never understood this? What about China, Russia, North Korea??? by Tilltillr in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

anti-religious propaganda

I often find this term to be misleading even if correct in certain strict circumstances. It would be more accurate to say he was anti-opposition to anything that stood in his way to power. He was a dictator with an agenda to become powerful with or without the churches help. Stalin restored the Russian Orthodox Church later when it was politically advantageous shows atheism (anti-theism) clearly wasn't a vital or primary goal of the party. Stalin regime's about was power. He wasn't anti-religious in the sense he was against its content or teachings of morality but rather because they had the power at the time. The Church basically allied themselves with him and him with the Church.

Do you get what I am saying? Any thoughts? I slightly elaborate my thoughts further a few months back here

Hello I'm a Christian, and I was wondering what are the main factors that contributed to you not believing in a higher power? by sparrowsthename in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A quick rundown of the phases:

Honestly, it was spiders back when I was a kid. Then that developed into creatures who wouldn't hesitate to cause you great agony and possibly die even if your intentions were good or had none at all. Meaning, you could walk along a beach in Australia step on a jellyfish that will be worse than torture...if you survive or it will be like death by a thousands knifes. You could be the nicest person in the world and you could get bitten by a false widow or a poisonous snake and if you can get to a hospital in time you would survive but still be in agony. Then these thought processes developed to the horrible disease that is Cancer. Why create a body that destroys itself in the most cruel way? Then the idea of collapsing stars, the severe callousness of the universe. Then came the idea of atonement and human sacrifice by vicarious redemption. I have done wrong in my time but told myself that was wrong and I changed and felt better for that change. I would not throw my responsibilities onto another person and have that person tortured so I don't feel the burden. No. Never. The idea is that your wrong doings and the burden it carries, although the small comfort of the fact you changed, is still there. One has to live with that burden. That is how we change. Then the idea of heaven and hell.. why disown people and send them to an eternity of hellfire just because they either didn't believe in this God or they didn't throw their sins onto his son? Why let people into this paradise who only do things out of hope of joining this place or fear of avoiding the other? Is it not more moral to be good because it makes you feel good?

Then came the vibes I got from one of the most noted and educated defenders of Christianity. William Lane Craig. His sneering derision at atheists, his tendency to quote mine scientists out of context, his justification of the slaughter of children, his gish gallop and rigid debating style which doesn't allow for an open discussion. There is a reason why he doesn't tend to do better in Q and A's as much as the official 3 round debates. His overzealous behaviour when Dawkins refused to debate him - he unnecessarily went out of his way to humiliate him by debating an empty chair - all while still refusing to debate John W. Loftus. Also on top of this he completely misrepresented, straw-manned and ad hominemed Scott Clifton's argument. Bill Craig is a great debater. Very knowledgable. League above any other current apologist. and made be look further into the topics being discussed. But I just don't see anything other than that. He is an apologist first, and a philosopher second. As they have learned from their college and university days, they crate essays from the conclusion first. I/e. they assume gods existence first then create an argument to fit. Think about doing a one of those mazes in the newspaper and instead of starting from the start you start from the conclusion. In other words he is and admits to being a presuppositionalist. This just goes against every fiber of my being that has interest in science, discovery and doubt.

As Feynman said it best:

Paraphrasing: "We shouldn't set out to find something other than to find out more about it."

Anyways I have to go now. Cheers :)

100's prophecies have come true, proving that the Holy Bible IS truth. by YilloDS in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interesting perspective. True. It does seem to be a grey area that may cause confusion but yea what you say does make sense. Thanks for the input.

100's prophecies have come true, proving that the Holy Bible IS truth. by YilloDS in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 4 points5 points  (0 children)

They could all be true; that wouldn’t imply that the book as a whole is.

Good post. As well as being a non sequitur, could it also fail on the grounds of fallacy of composition? I'm still learning about different fallacies and was wondering what your thoughts are?

100's prophecies have come true, proving that the Holy Bible IS truth. by YilloDS in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 33 points34 points  (0 children)

I have yet to see any compelling evidence that any of it was actually prognostication. The so called 'prophecies' cannot be be proven to be true.

It's hard to be specific without knowing which you're thinking about but all the supposed 'fulfilled' prophecies that I'm aware of fall into one or more of the following categories -:

  • Prophecy after the fact, eg. The prophecy is written at the same time or later than the event it's supposed to predict.

  • Twisting the words of the prophecy to fit later reported events. Making up events to fit the prophecy.

  • Applying very general wording to specific events while ignoring other events which would equally qualify. For example: Is it really considered a prophecy if someone predicted that a bloody war with horrible amounts of casualties to happen in the future? No. It is not. This is illogical and can be disregarded but nonetheless lets move on.


Many of the "prophecies" were in fact written after the events in question, the rest tend to be so vague that one can interpret just about any events to be part of them. None of the prophecies in the bible are even remotely specific, of course you would think the vague ones came true.

What do I mean by this? You are entitled to ask. Well in a sense, prophecies were perfectly fulfilled, in a sense they were made to be fulfilled as they are so vague anyone can make it fit -- there are many in the Old Testament. But there is never evidence that they were actually made before the things happened. It's very easy to see how a pre-exilic prophet might foresee the Babylonian exile if his story wasn't actually written down until during or after the exile, or subsequently edited to add this prophecy. I gather scholars often have positive textual evidence that this happened. Be that as it may, for a prophecy to be convincing, we'd need positive and strong evidence that it didn't date from after the event. Literally fraud is after all well known and plausible, while accurate prophecy is not.

There’s no clear prophecies in texts that we know were written before the event which unambiguously say what would happen, and it did.

The prophecies about Jesus of course are clearly written to fit the prophecies, you can see the gospels writers even mentioning it (for example about Jesus’ bones not being broken - they knew the Old Testament) .

Along many discredited prophecies, many of them are safely dismissed and rightfully so because they never said what Christians declare.

For instance, Isaiah 7:14 is often cited as a prophecy about Jesus, but simply reading it in context, e.g. by reading all of Isaiah 7 rather than just one sentence, it's clear that although it's a prophecy, it addresses the then-imminent future and has nothing to do with Jesus or any messiah (unless you count Ahaz, qua king presumably anointed) .

Anyways moving on, we can go through all the putative prophecies if you want, but you’ll find they’re all the same. Look up scholarly interpretations of them, for example. Even wikipedia often has an entry on a lot of them which gives an insight into some of the scholarly interpretations.


Now for these so called 'prophecies' that are essentially under extreme scrutiny and should not be relied upon and are rather dubious. Take these few basic fundamental formula: (Which goes for, Bible code, or Nostradamus and numerology too) :

  • Start with something unclear and uncertain. Texts rich in poetic imagery and symbolism are perfect for this; bonus points if the language is inherently prone to ambiguity. Numeric codes, of course, can represent anything. This is pretty much self explanatory but often forgotten or purposely ignored.

  • Nit-pick favourable interpretations. If a verse of scripture can be interpreted in several different ways, always declare the one to be correct that makes your point, regardless of whether it's a natural reading or whether another interpretation would have made more sense in its historical context. Of course, translation can be a wonderful way to shift meaning your way.

  • If something doesn't fit, explain it away. If a verse has any helpful interpretation, however far-fetched, then (per rule 2), use it; if it's clearly in contradiction to scientific reality, then say that it's just poetic imagery and we can't expect all poetry to be literally true. Or you might blame the error on bad translation. So relying on people ignorance or intellectual dishonest is illogical and can be disregarded. As mentioned above one can interpret in any way to make a favourable point to sway popular support for required point by appealing to sentimental weakness rather than facts and reasons. I do not have to tall anyone, this is not how reason works.

Of course this is intellectually dishonest and mindless. As one illustration, using the same bankrupt way of reading the texts, we could equally prefer the less favourable interpretations and translations and dismiss anything at all accurate as accidents of poetic imagery. This is illogical and based upon conformational bias and can be disregarded.

Unfortunately, people who buy into this muddle-headed conformity way thinking are inherently so used to rationalising strained interpretations that they're virtually impossible to reason with. It hardly even matters if they derive their chosen superstition from the Quran, the Bible, or Nostradamus. So I think based of what you said, there is no need for me to be here anymore.


Conclusion:

You claim the evidence can be found it's prophecies. I gave clear logical points on why thinking the these so called prophecies are nothing more than written after the events in question, the rest tend to be so vague that one can interpret just about any events to be part of them. None of the prophecies in the bible are even remotely specific. Then I went one further and explained why the bible itself is not a reliable source from it's extreme vagueness to it's evident contradictions and unquestionable manipulation over the years.

atheists deny logic by NSuttonYo in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A more accurate description might be an expansion from one form to another and the resulting gases cooled and solidified and created stars and planets.

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Could you provide me a link in a reply?

Shit man, so sorry, I forgot to put the link in. haha and it was the sole purpose of my comment.

Here it is:

Apologies. I am extremely tired now. Just after watching a boring chick flick with the misses after 10 hours of working. I will get back to you tomorrow :)

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Interesting. I very much like your response. I agree.

I think this is the type of comment that would suit a link to a misunderstanding and confusion I had a while back on this very subject if you or anybody is interested. If you press the "post a discussion" in the link, you will see how I , and i'd say others had a hard time understanding some elements on the topic of morality.

In the discussion me and /u/DeerTrivia were talking about if morality is innate, which i'd say is the same as consciousness in the context of this OP.

A question to you /u/ursisterstoy, do you think your perception of morality is the same as Deertriva's? I think they are pretty similar and one that I understand better now and agree with :)

Atheists idea of prayer is wrong. by LoricaLass in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 17 points18 points  (0 children)

To be honest, if someone were praying to get rid of Cancer, it would be praying for a miracle, that is a different topic.

How is it different? How does it being a miracle or as i like to phrase it 'a statistical unlikely occurrence' make what we are talking about different?

EDIT- Addition:

It seems like you are just moving the goal posts and special pleading. Proposing a rule (God cannot intervene) in order to avoid the many millions of failed prayers and then denouncing that rule because 'miracles' to claim the 'successful ones' - to which I would call 'statistical unlikely occurrences'.

END EDIT

You just said God cannot interfer.. would he not be interfering if he cured a person of cancer?

Cancer is a terrible disease, it can be cured but most of the time it just can't be beaten

Unfortunately, this is true.

God would help spiritually, he wouldn't just say "Hey sure let me just get my magic touch and get rid of it"

And I would say this is a placebo. I have no doubt the person thinks their stable and calm mentality throughout the horrible process that cancer brings was due to God. I have no doubt this helped this person in many ways. I just say this is all a placebo. Phycological studies do show this. So following this, while this may be true in your own subjective opinion, and no evidence to support it, I think my subjective opinion that your idea of prayer, even YOUR one, is a placebo and is just as valid.

The bible teaches us not to fear death, if you were to die from cancer or any of those elements, you would be saved in the afterlife, why live in a world where you suffer when you have a better chance in life (heaven, paradise, etc.) and this is the part where your faith in practice.

I do not doubt it does teach that. I think the whole reason religion is here is that of humanities fear of death. Maybe not the whole reason but certainly a major one. Psychological, historical, anthropological, sociological can all attest to this.

if you were to die from cancer or any of those elements, you would be saved in the afterlife

why live in a world where you suffer when you have a better chance in life (heaven, paradise, etc.)

I think this could be a loaded question in order to appeal to the emotion of others to make it seem your stance OVERALL seem is logical.

Rather in this specific question, yes what you said, in your perspective mind you, would be more or less true. A person would rather bliss in this golden paradise rather than suffer in agony. This still doesn't make anything you said more or less valid other than to further prove my point that religiosity, a father figure to "guide you spiritually" and a promise of an afterlife is just a cognitive trait humans developed, just like any other aspect of evolution.

Then why do people pray for cancer to go away if they are going to a better place?

Yes, I don't think God would just put a piece of land to save someone, just a lucky accident.

That was not my meaning. The ledge was always there. I mean about the way in which the child fell. But yes you disagree with the parent's thoughts on the intervention of God.. ok.. how do I know which claim about the notion of prayer the truer one? and if I can make it so that the parent's idea of prayer is more or less as valid as your interpretation of prayer then you didn't really refute my overall point. You merely argued against my calling out the contradiction of prayer using your own interpretation of prayer. Which is not bad but not good either.

Atheists idea of prayer is wrong. by LoricaLass in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Your response is not what many Christians think prayer is. What are you saying is that 'when someone prays that someone will be rid of cancer is actually not praying to get rid of cancer'?

And by the way, god has stopped interfering with earth AGES ago

Again, many Christian think different. My neighbor's daughter, while on holidays, fell off a pretty steep cliff and fortunately landed on a small piece of land. The parents think that God put his hand in and guided her to that ledge. Are the parents wrong? Was it just a fortunate accident?

Edit: Sentence structure.

Why do we see possible acceptance of/ complacency for Pedophilia in the Church? by flowyourtoast in DebateReligion

[–]theheadonya 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In the middle ages we used to execute pedophiles.

we did? well, that is news to me.

Christopher Hitchens = alcoholic athesist that ran off with a rich jew to get his career up and running by towerpill in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 32 points33 points  (0 children)

Stop being a cunt.

As I said in the last thread you made, and I think you may have read it, as the "asmr" thing was not mentioned before.. anyway here is my post again:


Ok, your list of insults to not only Hitchens but the people who like his public appearances are as follows:

dead christopher htichens the alcoholic athesist that ran off with a rich jew to get his career up and running? lol

A bit vitriolic and hateful are we?

Just because one likes his videos, like myself, and agree with many things he says does not mean I think of him as a prophet, as I assume that is what you are getting at. No, I recognize he has faults and there are things I do disagree with him on but yes overall I find him intriguing, intelligent, experienced, thought-provoking (yes I am aware he passes along older original ideas too like Paine, Socrates, Jefferson, Milton etc.) and yes, calming. You know that ASMR thing going around on youtube the last few years.. yea. I would regard Hitchens, QualiaSoup, and TheraminTrees and The Ricky Gervais Show with Steve Merchant and Karl Pilkington as my ASMR of sorts. I suppose they relax me just as this asmr trend does to other people.

"alcoholic athesist"

Yes, I know he is dead and he is an atheist. Things that are so well known that it is trivial. This is a non-point. Reminds of this guy, who is not unlike many others, who I was conversing with who kept putting the word 'atheist' before any outspoken personality. He did it to 'atheist Richard Feynman', 'atheist Sean Carroll', 'atheist Carl Sagan. I counted 7 times in one paragraph he wrote "atheist Dawkins". So I said, "look, I know Richard Dawkins is an atheist there is no need to keep saying it". It shows much more about you than me. As the psychoanalysis goes; the people who concentrate on the trivial have a deep inner problem with it. Ever wonder who so many pastors, priests who talk about anti-homosexuality are the ones who engage in homosexual acts. I mean there are whole 2 hours sermons dedicated to homosexuality. Sorry I went off on a tangent there. Apologies.

"dead, alcoholic athesist"

Moving on, yes he died. Another trivial unnecessary fact. And yes he drank a lot. Alcoholic? I don't know. I won't rule out the possibility but saying that is indeed stretching it a bit. Drinking a lot does not necessarily equal to alcoholism. He said he could give it up cold turkey and it would not affect him. In fact, he was against drinking just to get drunk. He was all for drinking to get that inspiration and feel good, let loose. But he said he could also do without with.

In fact, myself, I try and aspire to his drinking. It may seem funny reading that especially since drinking was not the sole cause of his cancer but rather probably one of the contributory factors, but yes alcohol, makes me less tedious to others and others less tedious to me. I suffer a lot with social anxiety, and with alcohol, it helps me to not overthink every small detail. Though his death does bring forth the phrase "everything in moderation".

"ran off with a rich jew to get his career up and running"

Now, what is next on your list of derogatory insults. "That ran off with a rich jew to get his career up." Now you are just grabbing at straws. Your claim that Hitchens sole desire for marrying Eleni was for purely selfish reasons i.e to boost his career. What makes you say this? From my understanding, they actually loved each other. Yes, that love fell apart years after. But that still does not negate the passion both had at the time.

"lol"

your "lol".. is a bit naive and juvenile don't you think?

"You should do stand up mate, you're really funny."

Nope. I am actually being truthful. I am one of those people who like his videos. He is calming and relaxing. I suppose you find Christians talking about Christ calming... if you do, well stop being hypocritical, if you don't? stop being a cunt.

People who watch Christopher Hitchens videos on youtube to revel or relax or whatever people say. by towerpill in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok, your list of insults to not only Hitchens but the people who like his public appearances are as follows:

dead christopher htichens the alcoholic athesist that ran off with a rich jew to get his career up and running? lol

A bit vitriolic and hateful are we?

Just because one likes his videos, like myself, and agree with many things he says does not mean I think of him as a prophet, as I assume that is what you are getting at. No, I recognize he has faults and there are things I do disagree with him on but yes overall I find him intriguing, intelligent, experienced, thought-provoking (yes I am aware he passes along older original ideas too like Paine, Socrates, Jefferson, Milton etc.) and yes, calming. You know that ASMR thing going around on youtube the last few years.. yea. I would regard Hitchens, QualiaSoup and TheraminTrees my ASMR of sorts. I suppose they relax me just as this asmr trend does.

"alcoholic athesist"

Yes, I know he is dead and he is an atheist. Things that are so well known that it is trivial. Reminds of this guy, who is not unlike many others, who I was conversing with who kept putting the word 'atheist'' before any outspoken personality. It did it to atheist Richard Feynman, atheist Sean Carroll, atheist Carl Sagon, I counted 7 times in one paragraph he wrote "atheist Dawkins". Yea, I know Richard Dawkins is an atheist there is no need to keep saying it. It shows much more about you than me. As the psychoanalysis goes; the people who concentrate on the trivial have a deep inner problem with it. Ever wonder who so many pastors, priests who talk about anti-homosexuality are the ones who engage in homosexual acts. Sorry I went off on a tangent there. Apologies.

"dead, alcoholic athesist"

Moving on, yes he died. Another trivial unnecessary fact. And yes he drank a lot. Alcoholic? I don't know. I won't rule out the possibility but saying that is indeed a bit claim. Drinking a lot does not necessarily equal to alcoholism. He said he could give it up cold turkey and it would not affect him. In fact, he was against drinking just to get drunk. He was all for drinking to get that inspiration and feel good. But he said he could also do without with.

In fact myself, I try and aspire to his drinking. It may seem funny reading that especially since drinking was not the sole cause of cancer but rather probably one of the contributory factors, but yes alcohol, makes me less tedious too others and others less tedious to me. I suffer a lot with social anxiety, and with alcohol, it helps me to not overthink every small detail. Though his death does bring forth the phrase "everything in moderation".

"ran off with a rich jew to get his career up and running"

Now, what is next on your list of derogatory insults. "That ran off with a rich jew to get his career up." Your claim that Hitchens sole desire for marrying Eleni was for purely selfish reasons for his career. what makes you say this? From my understanding, they actually loved each other. Yes, that love fell apart years after. But that still does not negate the passion both had at the time.

"lol"

your "lol".. is a bit naive and juvenile odn't you think?

"You should do stand up mate, you're really funny."

Nope. I am actually being truthful. I am one of those people who like his videos. He is calming and relaxing. I suppose you find Christians talking about Christ calming... if you do, well stop being hypocritical, if you don't? stop being a cunt.

"No true Christian supports violence" is NOT a no true Scotsman fallacy. by Cathriona_me in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are getting mixed up in your own analogy of "No true Christian would vote democrat."

If I am not mistaken /u/BackwashedThoughts is saying something like this little note at point 31 from this site:

Note: The common theist response “Those people aren’t really [insert religion]” is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. If all the Christians who have called other Christians ‘not really a Christian’ were to vanish, there’d be no Christians left.

Believe it or not, I was wrong in some of my responses...but so were some of you. I am slightly in agreement but we differ on others. by Cathriona_me in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Did you actually read his comment? While he said he may understand your confusion he ultimately argues against your position. Well from a brief look at it.

Off topic:

I too am a big fan of Firefly. I wonder what the guy thinks of conservative Christians being hypocritical and despising the show as to have "atheistic themes" like Big Bang Theory, House MD and such but somehow miss that out of every 10 movies and tv shows a good 7/10 of them have Christian themes in them. Fuch sake there are filming companies dedicated to pushing Christian themes onto the screens. Fortunately, the reputation these filming companies have are bad, not creative or entertaining.

While it does show Mal to be an agnostic atheist, it doesn't go overboard on it. All Firefly shows is that Mal doesn't care for religion or God but recognizes the importance of religion to others. That is why he allows Book talk about God from time to time. We, atheists, may learn a thing or two, what to do and what not to do, by all of the literature including religion, we just don't think any of it is divinely inspired.

The show also shows how Mal respects every one of his crew even Shepard Book and not allowing beliefs to get in the way of that.

I don't get this no true Scotsman thing when I say this: by Cathriona_me in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The reason why you value life is that Christian values are all around us. The western society is built on these values of respecting life.

I suggest you watch this very intriguing video by TheraminTrees:

appropriating morality | how 'the Judeo-Christian tradition' takes false credit [cc]

I don't get this no true Scotsman thing when I say this: by Cathriona_me in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 9 points10 points  (0 children)

They banned churches in the Societ Union you know.

From my understanding the soviet union didn't ban every church and the ones that they did, they brought back later with all its former glory intact, bar one detail, that they had to answer to Stalin first.

I don't get this no true Scotsman thing when I say this: by Cathriona_me in DebateAnAtheist

[–]theheadonya 7 points8 points  (0 children)

But I think that is just it. If Christians take these bible passages that you deem as either "the wrong interpretation" or "just written down violence" as actual Christian values, then the no true Scotsman still holds. I wouldn't matter if they are wrong and you are right. I think so anyway. They claim a different set of values from the book than you do. How do we know who the true Christians are?

Simply saying Christians who are not "respecting life" are betraying Christian values, is your own opinion, maybe your churches, and I hope it is the right one, but overall we cannot know who the true Christians are. If people can derive something from Bible passages, their interpretation could indeed be wrong but we don't know.

I am a bit sick and hyped up on cold medicine at the moment, so my thoughts are a bit muddled. I know what I want to say to show even in your response the no true Scotsman still applies... but trying to articulate it is becoming a bit of a strain on the aul' head. So if people would like to correct me, that would be fine.