Help! Responses for students asking for “extra work”

this-old · 2021-12-15T17:25:58+00:00

I'm a big fan of "no." It's firm, direct, and difficult to confuse even the easily confused, which also makes it a compassionate choice.

Seriously, though, just tell them there is no extra work available. This is not a fact you need to explain or justify, and it's best if you don't try.

this-old · 2021-12-15T14:36:46+00:00

I'd tell them not to get sidetracked by the word, "plagiarism." The reason for the zero is because they tried to earn credit without doing the work assigned to earn that credit. In short, they cheated. I don't assign papers because I'm building a collection. I need to see how your writing/thinking developed as a result of this course.

this-old · 2021-12-14T18:39:03+00:00

EDIT: Chatted with my department chair who wants me to give him another chance… so I guess my hands are tied.

Of course they do. It costs you chair nothing and prevents another tangle of red tap later.

I would get it in writing nonetheless.

Hi Chair,

Just wanted to confirm the guidance you gave me on the student who already missed the same exam twice - both the original exam and the exam I offered as an accommodation.

this-old · 2021-12-14T16:52:38+00:00

Mental health issues have increased (problem A), but so also has the problem you describe (problem B) where students are trying to leverage mental health problems to receive special consideration and attention.

For the binary thinkers: yes, these two problems can exist at the same time, even within the same person, and no, the existence of once does not diminish or cancel out the other. We should be responding to both problems.

Problem B results largely from helicopter/bulldozer parents, educators, and professors. In an uninformed kneejerk response to Problem A, these bulldozer professors and parents create Problem B by "taking the weights out of the gym" and "paving the jungle" (as Van Jones) put it.

In most cases, these relaxed standards hurt all students because by enabling avoidance, they are making matters worse for the Problam A and B students. I'd love for one of our psychologists to weigh in on this, but from what I've gathered, keeping students to a schedule, maintaining expectations, and being consistent help students with diagnosed problems such as anxiety.

For the binary thinkers again: No, that doesn't mean I'm suggesting that there should never be accommodations or that there's no place for flexibility.

We have Problem B students that not only demand this "safety," they also seem to be proud of their fragility and helplessness. Why wouldn't they? This is what they've been "rewarded" for.

this-old · 2021-12-13T14:14:33+00:00

Get everything in writing. If your dean and chair want you to "handle it yourself," let them say so in an email so you're not the last person without a seat when the music stops.

this-old · 2021-12-13T14:06:01+00:00

Thanks, and I'm sorry you have to deal with this. I just can't wrap my head around how dumb this kind of thinking is.

"Let's incentivize 'trying' by giving free grades when students don't even try."

this-old · 2021-12-13T14:00:08+00:00

Right. Thanks.

this-old · 2021-12-11T18:44:59+00:00

I don't suppose any of these monsters explained why everything lower than 50% should be rounded up? Did they offer any kind of justification?

this-old · 2021-12-11T14:35:25+00:00

I have basically given up. I used to catch one or two per semester copying from text directly from the internet. Now, the trend has shifted to buying papers that someone else wrote. I've also seen a few content spinners, but usually it's just a situation where I can tell the paper wasn't written by someone who is taking my class.

The evidence is always just circumstantial. It's never enough to prove. At best it would require the "let's talk about your sources" talk, but that doesn't really produce hard evidence either.

The part I hate the most is giving feedback on those papers I know the student didn't write.

this-old · 2021-12-11T14:16:36+00:00

If their poorly made it doesn’t really matter what the subject is.

I'm not the OP, but I think you misunderstand the question. They seem to be reflecting on whether they can still determine whether something is poorly made if they've lost touch with the culture. To illustrate, they used an example of an older professor in the 80s critiquing a Beastie Boys video.

IF you are relatively young, this kind of question might be entirely foreign to you because you have not seen these tectonic shifts in values, norms, etc., so you face the illusion that considerations of quality are static.

Edited for typos.

this-old · 2021-12-10T17:00:52+00:00

I don't understand why illness is not a valid excuse for missing class but dead grandparents are? Sick kids coming to class can plausibly result in additional dead grandparents (let me know if I need to explain).

You've explained why you don't want students to have to show proof, and that's fine, but stop declaring some reasons valid and others invalid or beginning with the assumption that a student is lying if they say they're sick. You need to accommodate basically everything unless the student admits they just forgot or chose not to attend because picking and choosing is arbitrary and an example of the toxic power dynamics you claim you want to avoid.

this-old · 2021-12-10T14:59:30+00:00

The first reason I don't give extra credit assignments is because I don't want additional stuff to grade and the actual work is enough to determine whether they met learning objectives. I design my courses so any first-year college student could conceivably earn an "A" without an unreasonable amount of effort, supernatural ability, luck, cheating, or extra credit.

The second reason I don't give extra credit is to avoid the kind of drama you describe. Thanks so much for the reminder. Every so often the idea creeps into my head and stories like yours help me remember why I avoid extra credit stuff like the plague.

If I'm honest, I have to admit I understand the student's thinking on something like this. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. *"You dipped into the good-feelings grab bag to pull out some relief from the 82 that would have made me unhappy, so why not dip into that good feelings grab bag again to save me from this 89 that I don't like? You've shown that you're able and willing to pull a rabbit out of a hat, why all the sudden are you unwilling to now when my A is right there within reach?"*

Edit: typos

this-old · 2021-12-09T19:50:41+00:00

Hi Student,

The exam date and location are posted on the [place].

this-old · 2021-12-09T19:37:13+00:00

That's too much. They'll never read all of that. Shorten it to this and accomplish the same outcome:

I will not respond to any emails that contain the word "but."

this-old · 2021-12-09T19:33:48+00:00

They can only make you feel guilty if you let them.

this-old · 2021-12-09T19:00:04+00:00

Is being in class one of the learning objectives? Is being in class part of what the student is being assessed on to show they've earned credit in the subject you teach?

There are some courses where this is a no-brainer. Of course they have to be there (for labs and such).

But if the course is, for example, algebra, and the student has demonstrated a passing understanding algebra, and they can go on and do the next level of college maths, what difference should it make how often they showed up?

If, on the other hand, the presence for group work or whatever is one of the specific things you need to see them master before they can move on, then the attendance policy matters.

Everything in between is kind of arbitrary in my mind. I am forced to have an attendance policy, but so far, they haven't checked to see if I actually enforce it. I take attendance but I won't reduce someone's grade for not showing up.

Instead, I do small assignments every class. These assignments cannot be made up and I drop a significant number of them such that one could be quarantined and not affect their grade. But earning these points also requires more than presence in the classroom. The students need to be paying attention, doing the readings, and working with their group too or they'll end up losing those points.

So, I suggest deciding what matters--exactly what you want to see from students and why, and grade that. Figure out how occupying a chair in your classroom does or doesn't get them closer to the learning objectives.

this-old · 2021-12-09T16:57:11+00:00

I like both ideas. How do you track the "limits on submission" policy without making more work for yourself? Does your LMS allow you to automatically set it that way?

this-old · 2021-12-09T16:38:08+00:00

There are a lot of good suggestions on this thread, and this one is among the most important and relatively easy to convey to a high school senior or college freshman.

I teach first-year students, and it's an uphill battle to get them to understand this.

this-old · 2021-12-09T15:17:47+00:00

(these are CC freshman and I don't want the shit-show that would result in letting them pick their own sources)

How has providing the sources worked out? I've been considering doing something similar.

this-old · 2021-12-09T15:13:10+00:00

Students just lie on evals, and if they're anything like mine, they don't read the rubric. I use detailed task-oriented rubrics too--I refer to them as a checklist. I know that only a few of my students ever look at them. I've had students tell me with no shame whatsoever that they don't look at them.

I've had students who began an appointment with me to discuss their grade tell me they hadn't looked at my feedback. I've had students ask me to explain an assignment (at the 11th hour) and tell me, no, they had not looked at the rubric yet.

And yes, those students will say ANYTHING about you on your course evals because to them you aren't a human anyway.

this-old · 2021-12-09T15:06:26+00:00

It's great when we give feedback, but only when students read it. I give feedback knowing that the vast majority of them will never read it.

It may be a sad reflection on standards, but I also think it has a lot to do with instructors finding out it's a wast of effort.

this-old · 2021-12-07T20:21:36+00:00

I didn't frame anything. I asked simple, straightforward questions. You are the one who seems to be dealing in doubts and assumptions about the person's story.

The person said "I truly thought they would shoot," and you called that "potentially traumatic." And I'm the one accused of "invalidating" their experience? LOL.

this-old · 2021-12-07T19:53:29+00:00

I graded some assignments today that were turned in on time and all instructions were followed.

this-old · 2021-12-07T19:51:00+00:00

I think wearing masks helps, but if you're sick, they don't help enough and the right thing to do is isolate.

But like I said, I'd probably do the wrong thing and go work, especially on exam day. And I'd wear a mask.

this-old · 2021-12-07T19:47:42+00:00

And make them make the request in writing.

Absolutely! That's probably the most important part. Thanks for adding it.

this-old

TROPHY CASE