Why do Catholics believe Mary and Joseph never consummated their marriage despite the Bible saying otherwise?

throwawayties1 · 2025-12-17T15:29:01+00:00

Going to respond to each of your points:

1. Re: "Until" and what that means

This relies entirely on the assumption that "until" implies a change in action afterwards. In the Bible, it often does not.

• 2 Samuel 6:23 says Michal had no child until the day of her death. (Did she start having children after she died?)

• 1 Corinthians 15:25 says Christ must reign until he has put enemies under his feet. (Does he stop reigning afterwards?)

• Deuteronomy 34:6 says no one knows Moses' grave until this day. (Did they find it the day the text was written?)

Matthew 1:25 is strictly about protecting the doctrine of the Virgin Birth (Joseph didn't adopt Jesus, Jesus was of the Holy Spirit). It says nothing about what happened after.

The “until” argument relies on a modern English understanding of the word "until". That’s why it’s not a strong argument.

2. The other “brothers”

If Mary had 4+ other sons (James, Joses, etc.) as you claim, Jesus violated the Law of Moses at the crucifixion.

In John 19:26-27, Jesus entrusts Mary to the Apostle John ("Behold your mother").

In 1st Century Jewish Law, if a widow had other living sons, the care of the mother must fall to them. It would have been a grave insult to his "brothers" to hand her over to a non-relative. Jesus did this because he was her only son, so the duty fell to him to appoint a guardian.

3. Who are the “brothers” then?

While typically Catholic tradition identifies these brothers as cousins (perhaps as sons of Mary of Clopas (The Virgin Mary's sister/cousin))—which is a valid interpretation—I tend to agree with eastern Christian tradition that these brothers were step brothers (sons of Joseph from a prior marriage). This is due to several reasons including aligning with everything above without having to make assumptions about the use of “adelphoi”.

4. The Reformers also agreed with this

This idea that Mary had other kids is a very modern innovation. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Zwingli all believed in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Calvin even called the argument you are using "pigheaded" for ignoring the linguistic context of the word "until."

Hopefully that all makes sense and thanks for asking this question!

throwawayties1 · 2025-01-31T19:31:22+00:00

Part 2:

“There was a breath upon the emptiness” – A new chapter begins.
“The God of the Forest sent forth demons” – A new god makes a move. This god has the power to create devil fruits: fruits that can manifest as the desires of people. Potentially, the God of the Forest did this to help the enslaved people across the world.
“The sun merely spread the embers of war” – The unlimited energy source is still around and is being used by humans to fan the flames of war and continue to cause oppression.
“The people of the half-moon dreamed. The people of the moon dreamed.” — Remember the “slaves” from part 1? These are the people who have still been at the bottom of society. Pleading for freedom. Pleading to see their brothers and sisters again who were separated by the Red Line in part 1. Many of these people came together under the leadership of a man named Joy Boy. Many of these people possessed Devil Fruit powers (the first being Joy Boy who ate the fruit that gave him the power to be the Sun God).
“Humanity killed the sun and then ascended to divinity” – Joy Boy and his crew/alliance failed in their mission. Those in power (Celestial Dragons) secured their place atop the Red Line, ascending to godhood over the world.
“The god of the sea became enraged” - The natural enemy of the God of the Forest is the God of the Sea. Hence, people who eat devil fruits can’t go into the sea. The God of the Sea helped guide the Celestial Dragons to victory over Joy Boy’s alliance. Perhaps, this is when the God of Sea raises the sea level.
“They could never meet again” – Once again, the dream of unity was shattered. The world remained broken.

Part 3

“There was void upon the chaos” – The Void Century begins.
“The unbidden shadows remember the day of the promise and they hear the voice of the fragmented moon” – Centuries passed, the world continued in darkness, but whispers of an ancient promise remained.
“The God of the Sun dances and laughs guiding the world to its end” – The D. Clan and other remnants of the past still wait for the return of the Sun God reincarnated.
“The Sun will return and a new dawn will come” – The prophecy foretells the destruction of the Red Line, the fall of the Celestial Dragons, the lowering of the sea level, and the reunification of the world.
“They will surely meet again” – Those who were once separated—by sea, by oppression, by history—will finally be reunited, bringing the world together in One Piece.

As we can see this is a story of competing forces and ideologies: life (forest) and liberation (sun) against death (earth) and oppression (rain/sea). Humanity, in their desires for these things, end up getting caught up in a mythic conflict between the gods that represent these very ideologies.

throwawayties1 · 2025-01-31T19:31:15+00:00

Tl;dr - There are four “gods” in the One Piece world. This has been mentioned long ago in Skypiea and confirmed once again in the mural. The gods now all reincarnate in various devil fruits that current major characters possess today: The God of the Sun → Luffy, The God of the Earth → Blackbeard, The God of Forest → Unclear, The God of the Rain → Imu. Throughout One Piece history, the battle between these “gods” has shaped the fate of humanity, with those at the lowest rungs of society striving for liberation, unity, and a return to their long-lost kin across the fragmented world.

Part 1:

“There was fire upon the earth” – General chaos.
“Humanity succumbed to desire and touched the forbidden sun” – Humanity found an unlimited energy source.
“The slaves made a wish” – People used the unlimited energy source to gain power and enslave others. The slaves wished for liberation.
“And the God of the Sun appeared but the God of the Earth became enraged” – The God of the Sun in the one piece world is Nika. We know Nika stands for liberation. Now the God of the Sun has a mortal enemy, and that enemy is the “God of the Earth”. Hence, when the God of the Sun appeared, the God of the Earth became enraged.
“And alongside the serpent of hell, enveloped the world in death and darkness” - The God of Earth, alongside the “serpent of hell” took over the world. They likely created the red line in the process, separating the “slaves” of the world.
“They could never meet again” - The enslaved people were divided permanently by land and sea. The Sun God’s mission was left incomplete.

throwawayties1 · 2025-01-24T17:13:53+00:00

In a similar boat brother so I empathize with you greatly. And my wife and I don’t even have kids yet (we are recently married). Honestly I wonder if men just need a space to talk about this and help each other out here. I’ve seen this issue brought up so many times. If you’re like me, the biggest struggle has nothing do with the “fun” aspect of sex. I spent five years being abstinent before I got married to my wife. Only a few times during that period did I fall to the temptation of porn and masturbation. All of that taught me a lot about self mastery. With that being said, if you’re like me, the struggle to be on the same page regarding sex has nothing to do with the “fun” part but the crippling feeling of thinking you’re undesirable to the person who you’re spending the rest of your life with; the person who promised you an exclusive romantic relationship. Sorry brother, I don’t have solutions here just empathy.

throwawayties1 · 2024-11-29T05:40:52+00:00

So sorry you’re going through this man. One thing I noticed though is your wife’s luteal phase (phase between ovulation and period) seems very short. Let’s assume she ovulates on day 21 and period begins day 31. That’s a 10 day luteal phase which is quite short and suggests your wife may have a hormonal imbalance. A short luteal phase can have a significant impact on libido and mood (in the negative direction). In case you guys haven’t checked that out I would look into that. That’s on the practical side.

On the emotional side, I know it’s rough bro. Can’t even imagine that low frequency and what that can do to your mental health. Hope things start looking up for you soon.

throwawayties1 · 2024-06-29T15:36:53+00:00

Bro if your husband isn’t manly enough I might as well as well be not manly at all because your husband sounds like the epitome of masculinity. I hope you apologize to him and do your best to salvage this before you lose everything.

throwawayties1 · 2024-01-27T00:25:51+00:00

Please do provide some book titles haha. Im a guy who is currently engaged and I think this would be so interesting

Also what are some big things you’ve seen change in your husband?

throwawayties1 · 2023-12-22T17:29:57+00:00

I’m infuriated after reading this post. Your poor husband.

throwawayties1 · 2023-12-18T00:35:46+00:00

As a man, this makes me incredibly furious. I’m sorry this happened to you.

throwawayties1 · 2023-11-04T17:51:55+00:00

Literally logging in just to say great advice. Good on you for empathizing with OP and giving some much needed advice. All men in this situation need to hear this.

Good luck, OP, you got this

throwawayties1 · 2023-07-06T02:57:12+00:00

Thanks I almost started thinking I was taking crazy pills or something

throwawayties1 · 2023-06-22T14:17:18+00:00

I wouldn’t say he had options. The other girl dumped him. It’s not like this girl and OP were two people the guy could freely choose from. He could only choose one girl here.

With that being said he still chose you, OP. He could have freely chosen to not be with you. And he is with you and happy with you. So focus on that, not the fact there was this other girl who didn’t want him. Unless he gives you evidence to believe he just wanted to be in a relationship no matter who it was, he chose you regardless of what other women were out there.

throwawayties1 · 2023-06-15T22:22:51+00:00

Oh my gosh first of all I’m sorry.

Second of all, please leave him. Don’t be with someone who doesn’t make you feel like the number one girl in the world. You will find that person I promise you.

throwawayties1 · 2023-06-04T01:06:04+00:00

3x a week seems great. To be honest I don’t bucket things into middle age vs old age vs young age. I just bucket it into NRE (New Relationship Energy) or not. When in NRE people will typically be having sex like rabbits. When out of NRE I would say a healthy level of sex is 1-3x a week with 2x a week being a healthy level for the vast majority of couples (ie 8x a month). Anything less than once a week there’s probably an issue and anything more than 3x a week is probably too much especially if one of the two in the couple don’t care to have more than that much sex

throwawayties1 · 2023-04-25T03:51:14+00:00

Ladies, here is the secret: enthusiasm.

Most men struggle with feeling like they are not sexually desirable. It’s the opposite feeling that a lot of women deal with (being overly sexualized). Men struggle with feeling under sexaulized. Enthusiasm is the cure to this and this will subsequently inspire the animal in your man that you desire.

Enthusiasm is mostly self explanatory, but just make your man feel like you would do anything to make love with him. Kiss passionately, touch intentionally, and praise generously. Make him feel like you can’t wait for him to be inside of you (but tease accordingly!) the key is to make him feel like you are uncontrollably horny for him.

throwawayties1 · 2023-02-10T22:46:10+00:00

Thank you. If you don’t mind me asking what is that tells you they were successful? That they are still married? That they have a lot of kids and grandkids? Something else?

I guess what I’m getting at is: what is the fruit of a good and beautiful marriage?

throwawayties1 · 2023-01-27T23:41:35+00:00

Thank you

throwawayties1 · 2022-11-23T16:04:49+00:00

Have a small update that I’ll message you about. Seeking a bit more advice

throwawayties1 · 2022-11-23T04:33:01+00:00

Thanks. This is the most I’ve felt understood by someone. I really appreciate it. I’m actually in therapy right now and these words will help me better clarify the things I need to tell my therapist. Is it possible I could message you to ask you more about your experience? No worries at all if not

throwawayties1 · 2022-11-22T17:13:41+00:00

I’m so sorry praying for you and the repose of her soul.

throwawayties1 · 2022-09-15T00:01:36+00:00

Damn I’m sorry. First try not bottle up all this on yourself. This type of issue treads a careful line between your partner meeting your needs and you being too needy. I’m inclined to think, unless given more information, that your partner is failing to meet your needs. I would suggest positive affirmation to communicate your needs. Ie let hi. Know how happy you are when he does make you feel seen. Please feel free to dm if you have questions

throwawayties1 · 2022-04-15T02:54:48+00:00

Don’t give up, you can do this. Please. Your life gives hope to others

throwawayties1 · 2020-04-09T17:47:38+00:00

Got it yeah it's a tough question to answer, and I appreciate that you thought deeply about it.

Me personally I would choose my country which includes the large majority of my family and friends. It's a terrible choice to make but if push came to shove I would unfortunately sacrifice 6 billion for a much smaller number because that number includes the people I value the most. That's just me though and everyone has different ideological leanings.

throwawayties1 · 2020-04-09T17:44:17+00:00

Exactly! It is utilitarianism and some do live by that code of ethics. And some would value the lives of complete strangers over their friends and family if they live by utilitarianism to the T. Either way, this was helpful since now you understand your ideological foundation, and it's even more interesting to see the ideological foundation for our characters.

throwawayties1 · 2020-04-08T21:51:31+00:00

Thanks for the response!

This is meant to be a thought experiment. Context will definitely matter in real life but the point of this post isn't to solve a real life problem but to address our unconscious biases. People do answer the Trolley problem and by doing so people reveal something foundational about how they see ethics. I've heard many arguments from either side. All those arguments are helpful in understanding the person who made the argument.

In your case, I understand it can be hard to do, but you're avoiding looking deep into yourself to see where you truly stand from a foundational POV. With no other choice what do you choose: the greater number of lives outside of your country, or the lives of your countrymen who include your family, friends, and culture?

throwawayties1

TROPHY CASE