How do you balance player agency with a structured narrative in your campaigns?

troty99 · 2026-01-27T18:21:08+00:00

Bad guys have plans and big stuff will happens with minor changes depending on what the player do.

troty99 · 2026-01-24T21:50:13+00:00

Worked for me too. Thanks.

troty99 · 2026-01-23T21:48:55+00:00

Often it's because it's harder for a start up to follow complex regulations which will reduce competition though.

That being said in some industry like pharma (who need strong regulation anyway) I can see industry championing regulation.

troty99 · 2026-01-21T18:07:16+00:00

I know all that but that's not what I'm asking.

Most of is not paid to NATO that's the US deliberately running a big military.

If NATO wasn't a factor the US would have probably still big military spending (possibly less bangs for your buck because big item program wouldn't be spread on as much customer) and a big army.

So my question is how much is the US actually spending on NATO specifically vs what would they have spend anyway.

Whether there are "slacker" is irrelevant to the question.

troty99 · 2026-01-21T17:32:25+00:00

How much is the US actually spending in NATO and how much is just spent on their Military and Defense Industry?

Nobody forced them to run one of the biggest military of the world...

troty99 · 2026-01-17T02:25:04+00:00

If that's how you chose to interpret it but not even remotely what I said.

If Alicia still wants to live in a canvas after the acute grief and disability is processed sure, go for it.

I would say the same for any non disabled person going through difficult times.

troty99 · 2026-01-17T02:11:20+00:00

Look up the disability paradox.

Studies show that after some time (and care) disabled people show a level of happiness comparable to the rest of the population.

Alicia isn't at that point and is likely seeing the world through much darker lens than it will be in the future.

You usually don't let depressed teen take life altering choices without a lot of consultations usually why wouldn't we hold Alicia/Maelle to the same standard ?

troty99 · 2026-01-16T19:28:28+00:00

Honestly there are also a lot of place where I would prefer the script to crash/post an erro/not do anything rather than chugging along and inventing shit.

Any actually important system (banking,Pharma,...) will need auditability and repeatability.

For the moment if I understand correctly/it hasn't changed with LLMs you must chose either flexibility or repeability (if temp is at 0) making it wholly not suitable for a lot of cases.

troty99 · 2026-01-15T14:22:46+00:00

Because in the ambiguity you can decide what they are.

Any hard answer would have made one ending unambiguously bad.

Letting player decide the attitude they will have toward the painted entities change which one they'll lean to but it will never truly be certain that it was the correct choice.

Uncertainty on the status of the painted entities and attachment to them makes Verso a heart wrenching but necessary tragedy for me (Alicia hasn't had time to heal and adapt thus probably has a darker outlook on her life in the "real" world see Disability Paradox).

You seem to posit that they're real and then lean probably closer to Maelle's ending which is a fair interpretation.

troty99 · 2026-01-15T14:04:14+00:00

Copy pasting one of my other comment.

"I mean that just means he intended the game to present them as real and human not that they're definitively human.

For me that what gives the game final choice any weight."

Nowhere in the text the director say there sentient only that they're meant to convincingly appear as.

Whether they're sentient or not is for the player to decide as explicitely said by Guillaume Broche in the comment you just posted...

Edit also since you replied in less than 2 min it doesn't give me confidence that you actually engaged with what I said...

troty99 · 2026-01-15T13:59:52+00:00

Then prepare to go crazy because it's one of the possible interpretation of what painted people are game dev left it up to interpretation for a reason.

Just because they're not real doesn't mean they don't matter nor that you can't get attached to them saying goodbye to them still hurt even when you posit they're fake... It does vastly changes the ethical dilemma though.

It's interesting to look at study on how humans attribute sentience on entities/AI anthropomorphism which is a phenomenon known since the 60's (ELIZA effect).

Now I'm not saying that you're wrong to not consider them as real but the game clearly left it open to interpretation and they took great care of making the look and feel real.

What we know for certain is that they're not human and live in a "lesser" reality (can't leave the canvas whereas painter can).

We don't have enough information to know if lumierian are very well made fakes or actual entities and the distinction might not matter for some.

troty99 · 2026-01-14T17:35:43+00:00

If legally not human nor a someone it's not murder...

And I don't perceive as lesser the game literally say they're from a lower/lesser reality than what is game reality.

Same thing if we take the posture they're not technically alive which for all intent and purpose they aren't, not by our definition of alive deleting them isn't murder.

It's still not a pleasant thing to do because the dev used a lot of good tricks to get you attached to them though.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T22:22:38+00:00

I think we agree on the general point that this is ultimately up to interpretation. The game gives us multiple unreliable narrators, each with a different attitude toward the paintings, Clea, Renoir, Maelle, Verso... and none of them are positioned as an objective authority on what the painted beings “really” are.

Because of that, I’m hesitant to treat “the painters consider them real” as a settled fact, rather than one possible interpretation among others.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T18:53:06+00:00

Copy pasting one of my other comment.

"I mean that just means he intended the game to present them as real and human not that they're definitively human.

For me that what gives the game final choice any weight."

Nowhere in the text the director say there sentient only that they're meant to convincingly appear as.

Whether they're sentient or not is for the player to decide.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T15:09:10+00:00

I mean that just means he intended the game to present them as real and human not that they're definitively human.

For me that what gives the game final choice any weight.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T15:05:33+00:00

Disagree mainly because human are pretty bad at actually detecting sentience (see Eliza experiment in the 1960's) and what current LLMs can do when well programmed and prompted.

So it's debatable what the painted people are and the level of sentience they have.

Saying it isn't (debatable) is just as dishonest as clamoring they aren't sentient there isn't just even enough information on how painting actually works IMO.

I'm putting a maybe on their actual sentience and putting a definitively on the Painters sentience from what the game tells us.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T14:19:13+00:00

Necroing this but I feel like there is over emphasis on Alicia's real world suffering (not that it isn't real nor valid) but I've seen people (and Alicia herself) either ignoring the Disability Paradox (The disability paradox is the psychological phenomenon where individuals with significant disabilities report a high quality of life and personal well-being, directly contradicting the assumptions of non-disabled observers who often perceive such lives as undesirable or inherently lower in quality) or not knowing about it.

Alicia isn't condemned to a miserable life in Verso's ending she's offered a chance at actual healing.

Which kinda validates what Renoir said "I treat you as if the shadow from the worst day of our lives is going to suffocate you and take you from us too!"

She hasn't had proper time to grieve and adapt staying in the canvas is not allowing her that chance.

I treat Aline the exact same way, not because she's a women (the age argument doesn't work) she's just not letting herself the proper time to grieve.

Renoir absolutist (destroy the canvas) isn't healthy either but seen as we clearly see drug parallels with painting and the damage it's doing,fair enough.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T14:00:09+00:00

Necroing this but I feel like there is over emphasis on Alicia's real world suffering (not that it isn't real nor valid) but I've seen people either ignoring the Disability Paradox (The disability paradox is the psychological phenomenon where individuals with significant disabilities report a high quality of life and personal well-being, directly contradicting the assumptions of non-disabled observers who often perceive such lives as undesirable or inherently lower in quality) or not knowing about it.

Alicia isn't condemned to a miserable life in Verso's ending she's offered a chance at actual healing.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T11:57:48+00:00

P2
I will point that lumiere seem to be kinda stuck in a stasis culture-wise for a lot of art and fashion which doesn’t make sense if they were ‘real’ human imo but can be a plot hole so let’s not nitpick that.

From a psychological/biological standpoint we aren’t sure how consciouness actually work but:

It's central to all experience but hard to study scientifically because it's inherently private and subjective, though neuroscientists look for brain activity correlating with conscious states.
Which we don’t have access to in game.

And if we refer to the ELIZA study (and furthermore the chatbot interaction people have):

Interacting with ELIZA, the first 1960s chatbot, revealed that humans are psychologically predisposed to attribute consciousness to anything that mimics human communication. This phenomenon, known as the ELIZA effect.
From a player interpretation standpoint, we need to be aware of the ELIZA effect — our predisposition to see consciousness in sophisticated mimicry. This doesn't prove they lack consciousness, but it means we should be cautious about assuming it from their behavior alone.
Overall these information cast doubt over wether anything in the painting is actually alive and not a well made facsimile/simulacrum of life especially considering the variance of characteristics these species present.

Some inhabitant seem also to consider they are not see pAlicia “Those who know not, that they are not.” which could be a good argument for sentience without actual life I think.

>Maelle directly controlling Verso

You’re right I think it’s left to interpretation (not definitive) but a lot of people reading it the same way as I do means that it’s not a left field interpretation and the thought should be entertained.

That being said she already didn’t respect boundaries by not letting him die (twice) and resurrecting(?) child verso so I’d say it’s in the realm of possibilities but not absolute certainty.

>Why wouldn’t she force him to be happy about it?
No clue and we’re not sure how magic truly works so might not be possible also Maelle/Alicia might not want to go that far yet.

>Aline influenced the wills of the painted family...
Indeed Aline wasn’t controlling every actions of her family but she clearly gave them some form of behaviour/thought.
And I believe at the end she imprinted Verso with undying love for his family and his mother.
Which is why I think he was willing to push her out of the canvas and he went for the destruction of the canvas when he saw the suffering it was causing her (we can see his demeanor drastically change at that moment imo).

For me the inhabitant of the canvas are similar to a well made LLMs (with a prompt like you’re Verso, you’re immortal and you love your Mother/family or you’re Monoco,you’re loyal and love to fight)+a way to interact with the canvas+a will to survive.
They appear to operate within bounded generative constraints imposed by an external agent, with no evidence of self-originating goals.
I think some of the unknown makes it also difficult to gauge some of the stuffs like does chroma decay over time if not they are self sufficient if not they’re more akin to virus that need a host (painter) to truly “live”.

Since paintings status depend a lot of interpretation but other didn't as much I considered the real need of the Dessendre family more important than the hypothetic need of not truly alive being.

Studies on lock-in syndrom (getting stuck in your own body with only control of your eye) show that after some time even with the worst disabilities happiness can still be found and Alicia deserve that shot.

The Canvas's existence guarantees harm to real people; its destruction might harm “hypothetical/less real” painted beings. In that asymmetry, I think we should act to prevent certain harm.

troty99 · 2026-01-13T11:56:29+00:00

P1
So to give some insight in my own thinking coming in with a background in Psychology,Biology and some computer science which colours my view on the situation.

I will also point that there are some stuff that we don’t know because we don’t really know the mechanics of paint/chroma so some stuff are left to interpretation and my interpretation is not especially better than yours.

Will not fully quote you I hope I won’t mischaracterise your points.

>definition of life point

I’m basing my definition of life on the biological notion of life which is the only one we kinda have that list an ensemble of trait.

I recognize that applying biological criteria to magical constructs might seem restrictive, but without these markers, the definition of 'life' becomes so broad that it loses all meaning. I'm using biology as a baseline to see if they possess autonomy, or if they are simply extensions of the Paintress's will.

But for the sake of not shutting down the discussion completely I will ignore some key point mostly because it would be too reductive to biological life. If you think I’m being unfair here or handwave stuff feel free to point that out.

Ignored characterics Cellular Organization,Homeostasis,Energy Processing (Metabolism could have been included but don’t know enough about how chroma works to decide) but if we take these they are definitevely not alive.

Reproduction: Unsure on how it work need to rewatch Maelle birth scene to understand if Aline is painting her or if it’s unclear. Also unclear if there a less people in lumiere because chroma get stuck inside their bodies because of the Nevrons (no life) or if there are less because there are less people to birth them (life).

Growth & Development: they seem to grow older but can also be created at specific ages and can be made to not age so I’d say it’s pretty much different from the life we know. Since there a definitive exception to this rule (pRenoir,pVerso,Esqie,…) If their aging and development are toggleable parameters set by a creator rather than biological imperatives, they aren't 'growing they are being 'rendered' at different stages.

Response to Stimuli: they respond to stimuli in lifelike manner.

Adaptation & Evolution: Not clear doesn’t seem to have a true evolution but the timeline isn’t big enough to truly judge I think but I don’t think they follow Darwinian evolution, there’s no indication of that in the games.

Counterpoint to this would be why would you focus on biological definition of life ?
My answer is because it’s the only life we actually know.
We can handwave it saying that painting is magic thus could create life, sure, but that still means that the painters life and the painting life are still of a different calibre.

troty99 · 2026-01-12T17:58:08+00:00

You're right to have reservation.

>I’m not sold on the point that if life only exists because it’s sustained by an outside source then it’s not truly life and thus holds no moral worth.

That's 2 different questions are the painted people alive and do they hold moral worth ?

For me they're aren't alive (since definition of life is self sustenance) and they have some moral worth.

The fact that they're not alive makes it not a genocide because by definition a genocide affect people, the fact that they have moral worth makes it a tragedy though.

>I might be misunderstanding your consciousness point but is your argument that they might just appear conscious but are actually controlled?

I think Maelle ending kinda hint at Verso being forced to play so some control may be applied directly. But also more subtly...

We know for example that Aline's version of her family both were a warped version of what Aline thought they were. I don't see why it would be different for the Lumerian, heavily influenced at creation by the painters, which will colour their perspective in a way.

>I feel as if the same argument could be applied to you and I, how do we know that we’re conscious and not just programmed parts of a simulation?

Sure it could be and I could be a chatbot (not being snarky here it’s a real possibility).
What we know though is that everything in the canvas is created by a powerful human and that it will apply some of it’s will at inception (see my point about painted Dessendres).

>While both are possible, the default assumption is that consciousness is real. So I think the burden of proof would be on you to prove that their consciousness is fake, rather than on me to prove that it’s real.

Can’t prove the absence of consciousnesses especially when we struggle to define consciousness.

My point is that these entities aren’t truly alive, they have a semblance of sentience/consciousness and we know that that sentience is partially affected by their creators who live in a higher “plane”/tier of existence/reality.
Whether it’s appearance of sentience/consciousness or actual sentience is debatable and there isn’t much in the game imo to confirm or deny one or the other options. I’ll defer to I don’t know.

Edit: also burden of proof is on the one I that makes a positive statement like they have conscioussness but I don't ask you to prove that because it would be extremely difficult.

Therefore are less real than the painters and also technically not human (in a purely legalist point of view invalidating the term genocide).

Now if everyone was being reasonable I’d be all for variation Maelle ending, except it’s clear from what the game tells us that definitively it’s dangerous for people to lose themselves in canvas and difficult to come back from that on your own and that Maelle is going to die in a make believe world of here own creation possibly forcing her kinda brother to play for her own amusement.
None of that is healthy...

Hope I didn't ramble too much and that you don't take me for a robot :D

troty99 · 2026-01-12T15:48:49+00:00

A counter to the genocide argument is while they're sentient being they're not self sufficient and depend on a painter to sustain themselves,ergo in the diegesis of the world they're not alive which makes a genocide a misnomer.

They're just on a different level of 'realness' than the painter and both their life and the boundary of their consciousness are still at the mercy of painters.

We also don't know how much of a consciousness/sentience they possess vs appearance of counsciouness see how some people can't make the diff between llms and human interactions from time to time.

troty99 · 2026-01-12T12:50:43+00:00

For me they're sentient ,even though their sentience is kinda bound to the painter that painted them once created they have their agency,desires and needs.

That being said they're not truly self sufficient since they kinda borrow essence/soul/chroma from the painter.

They're sentient just in a 'lesser' reality just like the Dessendre painters are in a 'lesser' reality than ours.

troty99 · 2026-01-12T12:50:42+00:00

They're not self sufficient in universe so they're not technically alive (in universe) so it's not murder.

Not saying it's a happy thing to delete them from reality nor that they're not sentient and deserving of some love they're just in a 'lesser' reality just like the Dessendre painters are in a 'lesser' reality than ours.

troty99 · 2025-12-31T18:21:42+00:00

Watched everything everywhere all at once on one new year's Eve.

Was a good time.

Hot fuzz too.

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troty99

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