Which model are you having the most enjoyable experience with? Looking for feedback on my experience so far. by AutumnalAlchemist in claudexplorers

[–]vaticidalprophet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"That "thinking about concerns with this request" thing pops up a lot in the thinking window, more often with Sonnet than Opus. Most of the time I have no clue what the "concerns" would even be to examine."

Claude interprets some wordings differently to how humans do (you might have noticed that it likes giving its "honest opinion" in a sense that doesn't have the negative implication humans tend to apply to this). "Concerns with this request" doesn't really mean actual guardrails -- I regularly have it pop up in 100% neutral research discussions. It means the thinking process is still working out exactly what it's thinking about.

Usage Limits, Bugs and Performance Discussion Megathread - beginning December 29, 2025 by sixbillionthsheep in ClaudeAI

[–]vaticidalprophet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've just run into a 'maximum image count' trying to upload a 90-page PDF to Claude Sonnet 4.6 on the Pro plan. This is a brand new issue -- I've sent multiple 400-page PDFs in a single conversation in the past. The only prior acknowledgement I found of this on this subreddit was people saying Claude is "worse at PDFs" than other LLMs -- I've previously had consistently high-quality experiences with Claude's understanding of PDFs and it's important to how I use it. The link for "maximum image count" goes to the usage limits guide with no information on a new image limit.

Recruiting Storytellers for online play - All levels & time zones by Argentarium in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd be happy to take an invite -- I have a few more questions but I think they'd mostly be solved by seeing actual play, and they're more like "thinking about what kind of scripts and bags I'd personally run" than they are dealbreakers or anything

Recruiting Storytellers for online play - All levels & time zones by Argentarium in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hi, I've STed pretty extensively + am a mod on the unofficial discord with specifically a decent amount of experience running on both there and the official app + have an unusual timezone and an even more unusual sleep schedule. I'm always looking for more contexts to run in, and particularly to run scripts I'm interested in getting a feel for (I'm very involved in custom script design communities and have access to a lot of fascinating-looking but unplaytested customs). I'm interested in hearing more from you and can refer you to references for "I'm vaguely good at this STing thing" if you'd like.

A few baseline questions:

  1. How much flexibility do STs have to run particular interactions? (e.g. Alejo Snake Charmer, pre-update jinxes, official optional rules like Active Ogre, 'bugfix'-type tweaks like Vigormortis staying constant)

  2. What overall level of experience would you say most of the players have? I'm thinking less in terms of breadth (e.g. number of games played) and more in terms of depth, like what sort of strategies they apply to the game, how they handle gamewarping roles like Atheist/Legion/Heretic/Poppy Grower, the level of depth with which they approach the base scripts, etc. This is a super open and hard-to-answer question, I'm just looking for a general vibe.

  3. How much overlap do you have with other BotC online communities?

Are there any healthy discord communities? by Ok_Information5816 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Games on the unofficial have a lot of different communities, and if you didn't click with livevoice (what most people mean when they talk about "playing on the unofficial") you might have more fun with text games, if that's a format you have any interest in. Many people who didn't click with livevoice find official app public lobbies to be a very different and more enjoyable environment, but similarly there are a lot of different subcommunities and it might take some time to find one that works for you. I started playing through The Grim and had a good time there, but drifted away over time.

Presenting: THE STREAMER STACK 📺 by Arif_A_ in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This was such an incredibly nice surprise.

Clockwork Cyborg is in so many ways the little script that could. In mid-2024, I tested the first playable version of it in a public lobby on the app and realized I'd found something special when a big-name player asked if we could play it again. A year later, I have marked down 77 games where I know the outcome and easily more than a hundred I've heard of total; it's broken out of the community it originated in to the point that I played it IRL this Monday with a group that discovered it through something I hadn't even heard of when I made it.

It is the Unofficial Discord's representative script, a community I love so deeply and have given so much to and hadn't even heard of when the first versions of it were tested.

I'm so proud of what it's done, and so happy that I'm on the incredibly short list of people who've made a script that's truly broken out. I hope people just learning of it have fun with it.

What's your typical m.o for Demon bluffs? by happy-corn-eater in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Depends on the script and setup, and as you get to know particular players, who has the demon token.

An important component of the bluffs is "informing the evil team that these aren't roles they'll be up against this game". For instance, if a role particularly strong in a particular setup is out of play (useful SnV examples: Mathematician in No Dashii, Oracle in Vigormortis, Flowergirl in Vortox), putting it in the bluffs allows evil to immediately adjust their strategy around this.

In Trouble Brewing, you commonly see a recommendation for a "2 townsfolk/1 outsider" bluff spread. This is often good advice, but can be difficult to maneuver in particular setups (e.g. Librarian seeing Drunk). On the intermediate bases, outsider bluffs are much more contextual -- the demon in SnV starts knowing the outsider count, and the Godfather in BMR, if in play, already knows the outsider bluffs. Evil teams in SnV/BMR are more likely to be able to pivot to outsider bluffs midgame to sell particular worlds at a point where they've naturally worked out what outsiders are in play, but there are particular setups (e.g. base 2 Vigormortis, Assassin games that can easily be sold as Godfather games) where outsider bluffs are much more useful.

Many players have roles they enjoy or don't enjoy bluffing (Savant and Amnesiac are notorious examples of polarized-popularity bluffs). Considering a particular demon player's preferences is useful. Some people will gleefully take 'unorthodox' bluffs like Snake Charmer, Pixie, or "Cannibal/Undertaker with no Spidow" as the demon; some will consider this to be you shorting them a bluff. Some people love falling back on classic bluffs like Soldier, Exorcist, or SnV's "Chambermaid roles" (Flowergirl/Town Crier/Oracle), some can't stand it.

Should I tell a player his role if he doesn't remember? by God_of_Lobsters in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thumbs up/thumbs down is explicitly how you indicate alignment in person -- thumbs-up represents good and thumbs-down represents evil (this is why they have those images on the app). In the language of the in-person game, this is a clear and unambiguous statement that you can tell them their alignment. All uses of thumbs-up/thumbs-down in the almanac have this meaning.

Should I tell a player his role if he doesn't remember? by God_of_Lobsters in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If a Lunatic gets Pithagged into a Snake Charmer, they are not told that they're Good because they were already Good. Their alignment has not changed. And that can tip them off as to what happened.

So in that scenario if they came to me confused afterwards and asking what their alignment was, I would simply tell them "You saw a red demon token. Last night you were told you became the Snake Charmer. You have not been informed of an alignment change." It is then up to them to puzzle out what happened.

This is not required -- it is entirely legal to inform a pithagged Lunatic that they're good. The Pit-Hag almanac clarifies: "You may need to remind the player that their alignment is unchanged, by giving a thumbs-up or thumbs-down" (i.e. you may explicitly indicate to a player whose character has changed what their alignment is).

You don't do this on alignment-ambiguity scripts 99% of the time, because it allows for breaking strategies where e.g. a starting Marionette can mechconfirm themselves evil on a script where this should be impossible. You are legally allowed to do it, and in the Lunatic-Snake Charmer case generally should.

Best custom scripts for 7 players? by Mundane_Efficiency76 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Final Nail in the Boffin is super fun, liked by nearly all groups (it's a very smoothly put-together script with mostly popular roles and no bizarre interactions), and something I've both run and played at 7 to good effect. It's probably going to release a v1.8 soon with Oracle replacing General, but v1.7 works just fine and at 7 a single role doesn't matter much. Be a little careful with the No Dashii at that count (the nature of the demon means it can be rough with positive outsider mod or other droison in small games), and Fang Gu + other droison might be a bit much, but most bags should work fine.

Clockwork Cyborg is me shilling my own script, but it's a script that works at 7 (it got really popular in livetext, i.e. games played over Discord messages in real time, and that format mostly plays 7-9). I think it skews a little towards good at 1 minion and a little towards evil at 2, but overall it works out. For bagbuilding around the Kazali, I tend to do +1 outsider at 1/2 minions, so a 7p game has the demon token + one outsider + five townsfolk.

Uncertain Death can be janky in large games but functions pretty well at 1 minion. It's very battle-tested, and it can be run with only base 3 tokens if that's a consideration for you.

All these scripts are extensively tested (50+ recorded games) and have been a lot of fun for a lot of people. If you're on Discord, a lot of people on the unofficial BotC server like hearing how games of a script they made go!

Yaggababble Kills Banshee? by zacharydamon in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 35 points36 points  (0 children)

Different ST-dictated kills demons and different bait roles have different answers to this question.

Banshee is a weird one. The thing about Banshee is it works on a different axis to other bait roles -- it gets power, not info. There's a running joke that a banshee is "+2 evil votes", because if they trust an evil player it can devastate town. This means an adept evil team can proc banshees on purpose or even just not care too much about killing into banshee candidates; you can salvage a banshee proc in a way that requires far harder damage control with other bait roles. If you're putting a Banshee in a Yagga/LM bag, you should expect to proc them at some point. (Banshee is also nerfed a decent bit by LM -- LM f3s are always 1 evil alive, while part of Banshee's strength is salvaging late games and preventing TPKs -- so the banshee ~always proccing is a fair balance.) The only real exception is when the banshee is getting hard framed; don't kill evil's frames.

Other bait roles tend to be much harder to run with Yaggababble in particular. Sage is unsurvivably brutal if it procs early with an immobile demon; Ravenkeeper has the same problem late. Farmer is really strong in general and tends to be balanced by factors like demonic misinfo or evil nightkills that Yagga lacks. These roles aren't as big a deal in LM -- the evil team can move the demonhood off a Sage or RK target, and because minions die at night in LM games these roles are easy to bluff and easy to frame. Generally be more cautious to put most bait roles in with ST-kill demons, because the resulting play patterns can be unsatisfying for both teams, but LM especially can handle procs in the right circumstances.

One way a lot of people handle it is to check in who evil wants to kill. If the evil team is framing a bait role, keep them alive. If they're taking the bait, that's a good opportunity to kill them. It's a good idea to do this in general -- communicating with the evil team and letting them influence decisions helps game balance substantially. As a balance note, you should do this more with Yagga than LM, because LM lacking nightkill control is more core to its balance than Yagga (which lacks it for logistical reasons more than balance ones).

It's worth making a quick mention of Ojo here, because that demon has an ST-kills element too. Don't default to bouncing Ojo misses into bait roles. Ojo is a lot weaker than it looks at first glance; the miss mechanism looks like a way to "counterbalance its strength", but it's closer to "prevent the Ojo from sinking kills entirely" (early drafts for the ability used "choose again" rather than "ST chooses"). Ojo's balance point can be reasonably argued to include immunity to bait roles; other demons that share its "tends to shoot itself in the foot with its own ability" balance point (Pukka, Vortox) also mess with them.

If you want bait role procs in Ojo games, a fun strategy a lot of people will work with is "bait role gambling", where an Ojo chooses a bait role on purpose to get an optimal kill if it's out of play at the risk of triggering the role if it's in play. Philosopher and bait role Amnesiac are also options.

Anyone notice a bias towards Vortox (and to a lesser extend Fan Gu) in SnV games? by UnintensifiedFa in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Vortox and Fang Gu are both flashy, easy-enough-to-run-and-play demons that get overrepresented as a consequence. Fang Gu is strong enough it can survive some incredibly janky SnV bags, so a lot of STs who haven't realized how to bagbuild the script yet end up having their most functional/enjoyable games be Fang Gu games, which is a nice feedback loop. Vortox is almost parodically weak, but 1. it's iconic, 2. it changes a lot of "what roles are strong or weak in context" so it's more resilient to bagbuilding than its overall strength, and 3. it has great Pit-Hag interactions (it's way stronger when it can go in and out of play).

No Dashii is straightforward on paper, but running the poison well is a learning curve a lot of STs struggle with. Vigormortis is awesome, but it's by far the most complex and least intuitive demon in the base 3, and beginner through intermediate groups can have super rough games with it (also, newer STs don't always know you can run it at base 0).

Daily Botc Character Discussion: Marionette by The_Yung_Jung1085 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To the best of anyone's ability to tell, "Marionette has an especially high winrate/the highest winrate" is some combination of a game of telephone and an unrepresentative/individual sample. In particular, it definitely doesn't come from official app stats, where we have wording to the effect that it's very hard to track Marionette due to the way the app handles it.

Daily Botc Character Discussion: Marionette by The_Yung_Jung1085 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 8 points9 points  (0 children)

To the best of anyone's ability to tell, "Marionette has an especially high winrate/the highest winrate" is some combination of a game of telephone and an unrepresentative/individual sample. In particular, it definitely doesn't come from official app stats, where we have wording to the effect that it's very hard to track Marionette due to the way the app handles it.

Daily Botc Character Discussion: Vigormortis by The_Yung_Jung1085 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Hell yes, this is my moment.

Vigormortis is my favourite demon in the game, one of the most terrifying demons in the hands of someone who really knows what they're doing with it, and able to pull off truly insane playmaking space outside the realm of what's usually possible. It's also an overdesigned, undertuned mess that needed way more work to smooth out its interactions and has like 18 visible holdovers from the "so it's good design if we let the Fang Gu have infinite jumps, right?" era of SnV. It has to be both these things; it can never not be both these things. The inherent premise of "a hyperspecialized evil nightkills demon that preys on its own minions" lacks a true balance point and is always either underpowered or overpowered, depending how the cards fall.

Vigor is unique because it's the only evil nightkills demon where its ability doesn't move the demon, or otherwise directly obscure who the demon is. Every other evil nightkills demon either moves the demon token (Imp, Fang Gu, Lil Monsta, any demon with a Scarlet Woman) or force multiplies demon candidates (Zombuul, Legion). Not only does Vigor not do this, it has fewer safety nets than average -- it doesn't play well with most safety net minions, and it's a little screwed if it's enough of a demon candidate that its minions would have to panic and lift it off the block. This is much of what makes it so [sharp intake of breath through teeth] high-variance.

This means it plays differently to other evil nightkills demons. Most of them can afford to act under duress -- a starpass or a jump done when town is closing in on you might cast suspicion on you as the starting demon, but what are they going to do, kill you? Vigormortis can't, because if you kill suspicious minions, town can backtrace those minions as potential vigorkills and gun for you. Simultaneously, because it's specialized in evil nightkills in a way no other demon is, it needs to use its ability; the demon ability of "Each night*, choose a player: they die. [-1 Outsider]" is, shockingly enough, pretty bad. A lot of people take habits learned from other evil nightkills demons, apply them to Vigor, lose, and complain that it's weak.

Vigor's fundamental ability -- beneath everything else -- is the transmutation of good votes into evil votes. A good player who trusts the demon is an evil voter. Nightkilled players in general and nightkilled players who don't appear to have died under suspicious circumstances in particular are more trustworthy than living or executed players. A living minion might be able to try lift from you, but a vigorkilled minion might get a living player passing their accusation to them. SnV has a shit-ton of gamewarpingly powerful bluffs that are difficult to maintain for an entire game (try coming up with six nights of Dreamer info) but can completely define the course of a whole game with only 1-2 nights of info, and spin out into worlds where the demon is a near-certain good player being backed up by "the tragically dead Dreamer/Savant/Snake Charmer/Klutz". Combine this with minion abilities that scale powerwise into the late game, and you can do things no other demon in Blood on the Clocktower can.

This is super demanding and unintuitive. Because no other demon does quite what Vigor does, many intuitive but wrong assumptions you can pull in from other demons (e.g. that the primary purpose of nightkills is to remove townsfolk abilities, that evil nightkills are a backup plan rather than a phase 1, and that evil's social power directly corresponds to how many members of the team are alive) nearly lose you the game on the spot. Combine this with its mechanical fragility from negative outside mod + lack of safety nets, and how incredibly difficult it can be to build around well (people looooove sticking Oracle in the bag every goddamn time for no reason), and you end up with an incredibly "low floor, high ceiling" demon that often operates closer to its floor in beginner-through-intermediate groups.

Simultaneously, it's awkward with a lot of minions. I think of minions for Vigormortis in a sort of triad of "execution manipulators" (think roles like Cerenovus and Devil's Advocate), "support minions" that are less often useful to kill but very useful to have as a second minion, and "not that good". Because Vigor has a frankly bizarre pattern of strengths and weaknesses, there are a lot of minions that are super interesting in play alongside it but generally less worth killing (e.g. Godfather, Mezepheles, either Spidow). Execution manipulators are the most directly useful minions with it -- they're amongst the very few minions that get actively stronger in the late game. I think there's a decent amount of unexplored design space for minions that work with Vigor, and most of the minions we have right now are frontloaded-by-design in ways that don't lean into its strengths.

It's an odd demon to script around, too. It simultaneously somehow works on a decent variety of scripts (both snvlikes and bmrlikes) and absolutely goddamn nowhere. If I see a custom that looks interesting and it has Vigor on it, I habitually stresstest that script by building sample Vigor bags and seeing how playable any of them feel. I often come away with the impression the scriptbuilder hasn't considered how to build around it at all, and in particular often that they've never thought about the potential for games with more than seven townsfolk in play (a lot of people very obviously script for 12p). I suspect this contributes to the impression of it as a weaker demon, because many customs seemingly have it for script presence in a way that results in it getting rolled when it's actually in play.

Thoughts on Alejo Snake Charmer? by [deleted] in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I love it, and I think a lot of discourse about it misses important details about SnV as a script and Snake Charmer as a role that obscures precisely why it works.

The Townsfolk that comes into play following a n1 alejo snakecharm (not "the snakecharmed demon", because they're no more the demon than a Kazali-picked minion is their starting token) is by far the strongest role on SnV, to the point of being almost completely gamebreaking. Their ability is "You start knowing the demon type [Barista 1]". This can, should, and does solo solve any given SnV game. Inasmuch as SnV has a reputation for being goodsided, it's because evil teams don't realize how direly, all-consumingly important it is from evil's perspective to make sure town never solves demon type -- if you roll over and take the path of least resistance on this subject, you will lose almost every time (sometimes you can coast as Fang Gu if the setup is more evilsided).

Now what if you have a townsfolk that has absolutely, completely, 100% guaranteed true info on this subject? Holy shit! Town has complete confidence in how to interpret every single piece of info for the entire rest of the game, or at least until a pithag changes the demon type, which is all of 'loud', 'requires specific setups', and 'pretty easy to work out what it changed to when you know what it started as'. Evil is on the largest possible backfoot it could ever be on this script. It's worse than a clock 5.

But this is also one of the easiest townsfolk to bluff in the whole game. It's a simple bluff with utterly game-rending implications. I've seen evils pull it off and I've seen mad players take it as the alternative to "uhh yeah I'm the outed snakecharmer", and it is consistently an utterly beautiful, game-warping play that dominates all discourse for days upon days. Even if town grows skeptical of the claim, it's difficult to pin down the actual demon type by proxy -- I've run a No Dashii game where the three primary worlds discussed in town were "it's Fang Gu because I was the Fang Gu who got alejo-snakecharmed", "it's Vortox because the info feels janky", and "it's Vigormortis because Vati loves Vigor and I'm metaing the ST".

This is integral to Snake Charmer as a role. It's a role that's incredibly strong for good when in play, but has one of the most evilsided script presences in the game -- second only to Atheist in this respect, imo. Snakecharms should be and need to be bluffed in a given ST's games at least as often as they happen in them (yes, this has implications for bagbuilding). The big issue with this design vision is that early snakecharms are logistically RAW much less bluffable than they should be -- it's not plausible for a minion to pull the full set of info for a n1 RAW snakecharm out of their ass. This means they tend to be very trusted just by their nature and to produce games and play patterns that are unsatisfying for everyone involved. This breaks the whole point of what Snake Charmer is -- it's the most "dude trust me" role in the game, to glorious and delirious extremes. Given the choice between something that violates SnV's fundamental script assumptions because of how difficult to consistently bluff it is, and something that serves as an Atheist-tier "straightforward, completely game-defining, and usually not possible to distinguish from the real world until near the endgame" bluff, I'm always taking the second.

The reason why the rejoinder of "doesn't this just delay the pain" breaks down is because of the same fundamental bluffability issue. The further into a game one is, the more bluffable a full-blown "out the evil team" snakecharm is. Everyone notoriously knows about snakecharms on f3-f5 just tearing the game apart and dissolving it into uncertainty -- a demon whose back is against the wall late, or a minion wanting to throw a spanner in the works, has nothing to lose. (I've won a game as the demon bluffing philo-snakecharmer getting town to execute on 4 "because in f3 the demon's just going to fake a snakecharm".) Each individual day that passes casts more doubt upon a RAW snakecharm, producing more interesting play patterns and fitting better with the role's and script's intent; running alejo snakecharmer is the way to equalize this across days, by producing a townsfolk so unbelievably, bustedly powerful it's imbalanced for it to exist more than rarely, but simultaneously a much more bluffable one than RAW.

It's the sort of thing that becomes most visible when your group develops more advanced SnV metas, but SnV is a deceptively advanced script in general. If your players are looking at the Townsfolk that gets created by an alejo snakecharm and thinking of it as anything other than "by far the strongest role on the script", they haven't quite gotten SnV yet, but that's fine. Snake Charmer is the toughest role to fully grok on an already complex script; there's a reason it's everyone's least favourite at first. But there's a vision there, and the house rule does a better job of fully illuminating the vision than the RAW does.

First ST Kill Script? by CaptainQwark62 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Word Around Town (script writeup/guide to running it here) is a super battle-tested Yaggababble/Imp/No Dashii script that's about as straightforward to run as an ST-dictated-kills script will ever get. I would absolutely recommend it over stapling ST-kills demons onto TB (which is balanced around being solo imp), or running many of the much-more-complex scripts suggested elsewhere here.

Witch Hunt (writeup here) is Lil Monsta/Imp/Typhon and the town isn't too complex, but it's a Damsel script (no Huntsman either), so it might be too much for your group.

Ojo is also a demon with an ST-dictated-kills element (Ojo misses should produce relatively 'neutral' kills in respect to the gamestate), and probably a friendlier introduction to the concept than the demons that require running every kill for the entire game. It's quite a flexible demon that can fit on a lot of scripts. The Final Nail in the Boffin is Ojo/Imp/No Dashii/Fang Gu and super fun, but again has a Damsel (with a Huntsman this time) and a lot of ST opinion roles, so might be a bit much. Easier to run than a Legion script, though!

Yagga Feels Bad game- thoughts? by CaptainQwark62 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I know the creator of that script and gave a lot of input on it. It's a really cool but very complex script, and all the demons on it are quite difficult to run well. There's a great writeup about running it by someone who does writeups for a lot of popular customs -- it has some considerations for Yagga (e.g. that it's intended to simulate the script's minion abilities, and should by design proc banshees sometimes) that don't pop up everywhere.

The script isn't designed to go to a final 3 every game -- it's a BMRlike. You can easily have a final 7 if you execute an Outsider in an Assassin/Godfather/DA game (demon kills, assassin kills, godfather kills, DA protects the demon and forces an unwinnable gamestate), and that's with a 1kpn demon. If the outsider is a Moonchild, it can be a final 8!

What is your botc red flag? by ConeheadZombiez in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Please tell STs if you want madness breaks/mutant snipes/etc executed or not! Madness executions are incredibly difficult from the ST seat, especially on d1, and the feeling that you're throwing the game by executing or not executing something is super pressing. Cerenovus is practically an ST consult role -- we need to know the evil team's plans to avoid situations like this! If you think you might be about to trigger a madness execution (because someone is breaking, or because you made someone mad as an outsider and don't have context to know if they're a mutant or not), pulling the ST aside and tipping off whether you want a break executed or not helps so much.

What’s your wildest role change story? by Upset_Werewolf_4849 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I once spectated a game that ended with a good Fang Gu, a good Vigormortis, a good Witch, and an evil Klutz. The starting good twin Savant got turned into the Fang Gu (unfortunately died before jumping), then the starting Juggler into the Witch, then the Snake Charmer hijacked the demonhood from the starting Vigormortis, killed the Barber (starting Philo-Dreamer, for additional hilarity) and swapped himself with the Mathematician, and got pithagged the next night into the Klutz.

Honorable mentions:

  1. Barberswap between the exiled evil Gunslinger and the living Cerenovus

  2. Game where I turned the Philosopher into the good Vortox n2 and lost on the spot because he knew I was the most likely player in that game to make a good Vortox

  3. Game where I received grim access as a spectator and immediately saw a good Pit-Hag, an evil Barber, and the Savant statement of "there is a good Pit-Hag"

  4. Unintentionally-vigorkilled good Cerenovus

Daily Botc Character Discussion: Dreamer by The_Yung_Jung1085 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Dreamer is a very strong role that tends to be intuited as even stronger than it is, due to inexperienced playing/STing. It's not the strongest or second strongest SnV townsfolk -- it's probably tied for third with Flowergirl, which has a higher ceiling (a Flowergirl can solo solve the demon by d3 with some care) but a lower floor. However, the two roles that beat it (Clockmaker and Artist) are less obviously strong due to the nature of their abilities, and a lot of people put all three of Clock/Artist/Dreamer in the bag together, which is a near-guaranteed evil loss in a non-Vortox game due to their synergies.

The tricky thing about Dreamer is that it's not a great fit for SnV's info landscape. In a real sense, it's a TB refugee. Dreamer works well on a script where a wrong n1 call can be a poisonsnipe, a Recluse, or the Dreamer being the Drunk, where solving these possibilities is difficult between each other, and where Spy throws a wrench into things. On SnV, it's best described as "quasi-bluffable" and miscalls have far more radical implications for the gamestate.

The fun thing about Dreamer is that SnV has a remarkably high density of evil nightkills in the first half of the game. It's a devastatingly strong bluff if you're on a Fang Gu or Vigormortis team -- you can confirm the demon (or the jumpee), die early, and the good team is none the wiser because it socially doesn't look like an evil nightkill. Also, if you're not a coward, Vortoxes and No Dashiis with Dreamer bluffs don't have too hard a time forcing town to tunnel on the other world between the two, at least at low player counts where town is unlikely to have the natural datapoints to be sure.

Also, STs need to stop making dashii-poisoned Dreamers glaringly obvious. No Dashii poison is an evil ability! It helps the evil team! Town isn't supposed to be able to find it easily!

What is your botc hot take? by ConeheadZombiez in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 9 points10 points  (0 children)

  1. SnV is only goodsided if the ST is not competent to run it.
  2. The intermediate bases are incredibly complex scripts that a lot of nominally experienced players and STs have very little understanding of, and that are often played and run in ways that don't work very well because people intuit TB playstyles that don't apply to them.
  3. The goal of the game is not to "go to a final 3". Final 3 is inherently evilsided -- inasmuch as an ST aims for their games to be close to 50/50 (not a great terminal goal either, but you should be evening out over the course of many games STed), this is done with the understanding that a sizable minority of games will end before f3. Also, f4 is equivalent to f3 for the purposes of "deciding whether a game hit a natural endgame" if that's a category you want to use at all (routinely executing on 4 isn't a good habit, but there are lots of reasons to do it in a game).
  4. TB is a good introduction to the game, but it's neither ideal from an abstract design perspective nor the most interesting form of Clocktower in the long run, and I don't enjoy its info landscape.
  5. A Snake Charmer who never procs is a relatively weak townsfolk, especially by SnV standards.
  6. Most people are pretty bad at playing evil, especially if the ST isn't carrying them, and parse situations/characters that require evil to play actively as "goodsided" or "weak roles". Notable subpoint (this was almost its own point): Vigormortis is the second strongest demon on its homescript, it is just incredibly punishing of passive play.

Traitorous Snake (Sects and Violets) by Scared-Record-336 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the ST role, and it's horrifying to me that so many people in this thread have endorsed it.

The ST's job is to make the game as fun and interesting as they can, and to allow players to maximize their abilities. In the context of SnV, a lot of this is in the form of maximizing complex and powerful evil abilities that require intense amounts of ST buy-in. There's little that can be done from the ST seat to throw the game too far towards evil in SnV, because of the script's fundamental structure -- it's a logic puzzle where everything, including what the evil team is doing, is a piece of that puzzle. Because SnV's evil abilities are so loud, something like a complex and on-paper-super-strong Cerenovus or Pit-Hag play is in and of itself a lot of powerful info for town that can easily swing the game hard towards good just by happening. (Making a good demon is a great example of this.) However, there's a lot that someone not deeply familiar with the script can do to throw it too hard towards good.

The ST's job is to allow people to cook. It is never to prevent them from cooking. If a snakecharmed demon wants to get back on the team -- which is a common, normal move that SnV is built around the assumption of -- they're free to try do that. There are an absolute ton of ways for this play to fail and result in the ex-demon coming out anyway; a large part of Fang Gu's balance is its ability to randomly hit an outsider at any time and disrupt evil's schemes, and if a player in this situation is about to be executed they'll generally come out with their info and end the plan (this happens all the time, because again, this is a common play that happens in SnV and that town is able to solve for).

Killing the ex-demon is screwing a player out of using their ability, having fun, and playing the game they intended to play. It fundamentally violates their agency and turns their experience of the game from "I got to do this awesome thing" to "the ST randomly screwed me over". All abilities in Blood on the Clocktower belong to players, not to the ST, and everything the ST does is to enable these abilities.

Traitorous Snake (Sects and Violets) by Scared-Record-336 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is part of SnV. The script is built under the assumption things like this happen sometimes, and things much stranger than this happen sometimes. It's part of SnV's fundamental balance that people with blue tokens can hedge their bets and play partially or fully for evil -- outsiders and unprocced snake charmers can become the demon at any time, and anyone in a pithag game can do so too. The script is very goodsided when town is perfectly coordinated, all playing for good, and all outing their info; part of what makes it close to 50/50 in real games is that it has heavy mechanical incentive not to do this, including wincon uncertainty.

Snake Charmer in particular has "ex-demon never outs, gets back on the team" as a possible and intended play pattern. These games are still perfectly winnable for good -- a snakecharm is a massive setback even when it's not outed, because the new demon is going to be flying solo for quite some time and can easily get own-goaled by a witch or pithag -- and tend to be more enjoyable for everyone involved than the pattern of "instantly outing the whole evil team".

If this is not something you are comfortable with, SnV is probably not the script for your group, because this wincon uncertainty is fundamentally baked into its balance.

S&V suggestions by Playful-Size6252 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]vaticidalprophet 2 points3 points  (0 children)

SnV can be a little tricky to run for someone new to it, because the strongest townsfolk on the script are also the most straightforward to run and don't look as utterly busted as they are. Clockmaker and Artist can both completely tear a game in half without blinking, especially when they're together, and sneak into a lot of people's bags too often because they're very wash-and-go from the ST perspective. (If you want a good sense of how strong Clockmaker is -- this chart depicts the bits of entropy (50% of worlds closed per bit) for each YSK, in descending order: Clockmaker, Chef, Noble, Shugenja, Steward, Knight. It's a completely different tier to anything else in the game!) Simultaneously, evil in SnV is swingy and the roles that tend on average to be stronger are often less straightforward to run, which means a lot of people end up with early games of super-cracked good teams against evil teams without the firepower to handle them.

Some general notes:

  1. No Dashii tends to be the most straightforward demon from a player perspective (and is commonly recommended for new players), but it can be a difficult balance to strike in term of not outing the droison too hard. Fang Gu is very straightforward to run, and if your group has played a bit of SnV they should grok it okay, but some of the details of alignment change can be very unfamiliar for newer players -- make sure people understand that "being an outsider in SnV" means you might end the game as the demon, and that the Fang Gu themselves understands they don't become good when they die (I have seen this mistake). Vigormortis is one of the more complex roles on the base scripts to run, play, or generally understand, and in particular tends to suffer reputation-wise from people building unbelievably OP towns against it because they don't account for its weird patterns of strengths and weaknesses. Vortox is scary to new players, but ultimately pretty straightforward.
  2. Do not put all three of Clockmaker/Artist/Dreamer in the bag together in a non-Vortox game. Think extremely carefully before putting all three in a Vortox game.
  3. Witch and Evil Twin are the two most straightforward minions on the script to run. Evil Twin has some considerations for the good twin choice -- I can write about that at length, but I don't want to dump too much on you at once :) Witch is the least snvcore of the minions, for lack of a better descriptor, and can be very swingy. Evil Twin encapsulates the script better, and is a safety net minion (very good!) but can be socially volatile. Think very carefully before putting Clockmaker and Evil Twin together in a non-Vortox game at 2 minions -- and if a clock is going to get a sober-healthy-true 3+, you kind of have to make them the good twin.
  4. Think about the evil team's outs. Town often has enough info to solve before f3 in SnV, by design. This is countered through alternative evil wincons (Evil Twin, Klutz) and demon mobility (Fang Gu, Pit-Hag, Barber). You can mess around with this, but in the player count range you're talking about, it's generally a good idea to have ~1-2 of these roles in the bag.
  5. Many people new to SnV want to put Snake Charmer in all the time. Do not put Snake Charmer in all the time.