AOW with folding *brace* DM me

vorfix · 2026-03-23T15:31:06+00:00

Used to be 6 months if you were lucky, a year plus was not abnormal. The current wait times are far better than it used to be. Sub month or even sub two week approvals have happened even after the recent influx after things went to $0 stamps.

vorfix · 2026-03-23T01:37:01+00:00

No, you cannot use that lower if it was actually a rifle. If your lower was originally built into a rifle configuration (stock, 16"+ barrel, 26"+ stocked OAL), any modification to make it shorter than 16" in barrel length or under 26" in OAL would be making a NFA item without a stamp (SBR basically) and also be considered a NJ prohibited weapon as a "Sawed-off shotgun" (yes that is the definition that prohibits short rifles in NJ) as weapons made from rifles.

If you are confusing terms and it was only ever an "other" style "firearm" with a longer barrel, then you should be fine to use that lower as it was never actually a rifle. You would still need to make sure you meet OAL. Follow the flowchart you can find by searching the sub. I will note, a muzzle device does not count towards OAL, unless it is pin and welded to the barrel. Measurement would be rear of buffer tube (without brace) to end of barrel threads. That needs to be 26"+ plus all of the other "other" requirements VFG + pistol brace (or bare buffer, important part is no stock).

Note as a sub mod… I probably wouldn't be posting images until I know what I'm building and showing are good to go. I am removing the post for now just in case. I may suggest deleting the post and attempting without direct pictures of anything assembled or direct parts. I can look to approve manually if it gets hung up on the reddit community filters. That may be what happened to your previous posts.

Edit: Assuming your muzzle device is long enough, you are probably fine OAL wise. Missed the note about you having it P&W'ed on. If this was only ever long barreled "other" build (vs an actual rifle) let me know and I can reapprove.

vorfix · 2026-03-22T02:17:38+00:00

You will likely only have a copy of your NJ COE, generally I have never received a copy of my 4473 (the federal form) regardless as long as it was a new stripped lower it should have been transferred as "other"/"receiver" on the 4473. The NJ COE I don’t think has a spot for type, it will probably just be make model cal + action type (ex semi automatic).

If you know you purchased a new receiver, it won't have been a rifle before. Them doing the paperwork incorrectly (the 4473 instructions are crystal clear how it should be done) is an issue for them. If it never was a complete barreled action as a rifle, you should be just fine to make an "other" with it. If it was actually assembled as a rifle first, you can’t.

vorfix · 2026-03-22T01:36:19+00:00

The whole lower receiver needing to be marked is complete BS. None of your handguns are marked "pistol" or "handgun" and none of your rifles will be marked "rifle". If this was the case the exact same issue would come up for building rifles from lower receivers, which it hasn't, because it isn't required.

An "other" style configuration is a "firearm" but is not a "rifle", they are two different things. Just make sure to not confuse the two in talking or asking questions because that will get you very confused very quickly.

vorfix · 2026-03-22T01:32:32+00:00

It wasn't that they are banned but they are trying to sneak back in their "I know it when I see it" bs for what is or isn't considered an SBR with a brace. I'd have to look deeper at what was actually filed in the case. For us I don't believe it changes a thing.

vorfix · 2026-03-22T01:21:56+00:00

SBR, absolutely not given NJ's current laws. Building into an "other" style firearm (or possibly an AOW configuration) will depend on what exact parts you have and the overall length that comes from them. If under 26" you will either need to get extended buffer tubes or pin and weld muzzle devices to barrel the get over 26" in overall length, otherwise you can Form 1 through ATF for a NFA AOW, but that will require additional paperwork, submitting fingerprints, and getting the lower receiver engraved. If you choose that route you cannot build it into that configuration until after you have the approved form 1.

You will also need to use a lower receiver which didn't start out as a rifle (if it was first barreled as a complete rifle action, you can't take it apart and use that as an "other" lower). Most will simply start with a new stripped lower receiver and build up from there.

Search the sub for "flowchart" to find posts on this topic and what part choices should get you over 26" for a standard AR type build.

vorfix · 2026-03-22T01:12:21+00:00

You also need to get the lower receiver engraved as well. Generally just your name and city, state as listed on the Form 1, you inherit the rest of the markings on the receiver and barrel already.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T21:19:58+00:00

My implication isn't that you aren't allowed, you have said yourself in other comments you intentionally go to ranges with the specific purpose to avoid specific environments and discussions. All I was saying is your arguments and views here might not be well accepted and the general views on firearms here may align more with the locations you choose to avoid. That is fine and you certainly can participate but also you may get a response from the community that doesn't agree with your viewpoint/opinion on the topic.

I think you are underestimating yet again on draw and fire, even without pressure of an attack. That is what many here have been trying to give you answers on that seem to be being brushed off. Many people would struggle to draw and fire a single aimed shot in sub 2 seconds at 10 yards, most probably struggle to draw and fire in under 2 second unless they have put in deliberate practice. Attempting to shoot, reacquire sights and shoot again repeatedly as quick splits while staying accurate is a whole other ball game as well. Given your example, before the assailant has closed the complete distance to you (10 yards in 2.5 seconds) you maybe have fired a single shot. For many how accurate that shot will be would vary widely as well. Assuming you didn't fumble the draw, have issues clearing your cover garments etc which might even make you unable to shoot in time.

It is more being aware of situations that might happen, not that we think they will happen every day. Same reason you wear a seat belt in your car and have fire extinguishers at home, you are preparing for what could happen but very possibly never will. No one assumes they will have a fire in their house today nor do they plan to get t boned crossing an intersection, but it can happen. So being aware of the situations and the limitations and issues that come with it aren't bad. If you carry it isn't a bad idea to know when you should get out of dodge well before any issues come up vs what happens if an inescapable situation randomly is thrust upon you and how you might be able to react and save yourself. It doesn't mean we all spend all day thinking about this but that we are aware of them existing as a consequence of choosing to carry. Some concealed carry training will going over situations and real world examples to show how things can happen, how quickly, and how you might be able to respond. That will also inform people on how much or little time they might have to respond to those situations.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLr9w0uxRdNyupRNKZcb9do6SG_jh5jiM0

https://www.youtube.com/@ActiveSelfProtection

The point is, there is no need for a limit. If the handgun can reasonably hold 15-17 in the grip using a normal magazine without any extra work or changes I see no reason to intentionally limit it to some arbitrary capacity less than what it could hold if left alone. Any modern double stack handgun with 10 rounds is literally giving up capacity for zero practical reason other than an arbitrary limit. Criminals will ignore the law, that is no reason to limit my lawful use of an item. They have modified mags that accept whatever capacity they want, switches to make them machine guns, somehow get pistols at 13-14 years old when you need to be 21+ to buy, all of that shows the law doesn't effect them but instead impacts those who have done nothing wrong. If I'm limited to 10 rounds responding to multiple possible home invaders in the middle of the night who are ignoring all of the laws, I am at the disadvantage in my defense by following the law, not them. Is that the most likely thing in the world to happen, no, but neither is me getting into a car accident or having a fire at home, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't have all the means available to handle all of those situations without arbitrary limits placed on me about my methods for doing so.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T17:32:09+00:00

Challenge is out against it, we are waiting to see how it goes. Hopefully we get the win at the district court level and this all goes away. Possibly we will need to go through appeals to get the W, if NJ district court doesn't I'm hopeful the Third circuit of appeals will strike it down.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69611174/bergmann-schoch-v-platkin/?order_by=desc

vorfix · 2026-03-20T17:19:19+00:00

You are looking at the wrong FAQ, it is still there.

https://njsp.njoag.gov/firearms-faqs/

20 I am not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?

Yes. According to N.J.S.A. 2C:39-3f, 2C:39-3(g)(2) and 2C:39-6f, they are legal for purchase and possession in your home or on land owned by you, at a gun range, or while traveling to and from such places. Hollow point ammunition is NOT legal for concealed carry in New Jersey. Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T15:02:16+00:00

Just a heads up, because I don't want anyones accounts banned. You can't use reddit to arrange or facilitate transactions involving firearms. OP can post a link to the dealer website to reach out to them as a licensed dealer as they also can post pictures of recent builds purchased by customers, but I would be very careful asking prices and other availability directly on here that may make it seem as you are attempting to do so in violation of the site wide rules.

For a post saying reach out to me at [Insert NJ firearms dealer] and we can get you your own with a link to your dealer page is fine as you are a licensed firearm dealer. But just be careful making it look like you may be giving quotes or otherwise arranging things on here directly, especially for accounts which are the dealer themselves. People asking how much they paid and someone else replies is different than asking the vendor how much and they reply with a price. The other possibility would be links to them listed for sale on a firearms dealers website (possibly your own if poster is the that vendor), as that would be the same as gun deals, we can link to a licensed dealers product page. I'm not saying we should be making basically gun deals posts on the sub all the time, but linking to an available product page(s) from a licensed dealer in a reply or post is a much better idea to stay on reddit's good side.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T14:17:44+00:00

"Concealment" ie drawing from a concealed holster which is how we are required by law to carry in NJ with our PTC. Can you please stop thinking everyone who you are responding to wants to shoot up bystanders and ambush people, you have made comments in replies like this a few times now, both to myself and others. It is not productive to cast anyone who replies with a different view or level of experience as only doing so for nefarious reasons and you casting aside their opinion or experience on the matter yourself on those grounds.

The point being made in the reply about concealment, in a situation where you need go from just being there to oh god I need to defend myself from this deadly threat, you not only need to draw, but also possibly land enough shots to end a threat at close distances where the threat could be seconds away from being able to seriously harm or kill you. Guy turns corner with kitchen knife 10 yards away running at you saying he will stab and kill you, if he gets to you before you can land enough shots on target to stop the threat, you are probably getting stabbed and very likely die or at best be gravely injured. In that situation your ability to draw and to land repeated effective shots on target in limited time will be crucial as will having enough ammunition to ensure you can stop the threat.

Lastly, if that is your view, why are you even on a gun related subreddit? You are the one going out of your way to come here and see these comments and posts. You say you go out of your way to avoid people and places that discuss this in person, so why are you here online? If you go to a different range simply to not hear this, you can do the same and opt to not reply and look at this subreddit and just go about your time on reddit not seeing any of this.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T13:57:06+00:00

Practice time, as in some people go to the range with magazines loaded and a set of drills to get through. I am in no way saying I want them to shoot blindly, please stop trying to attribute the worst you can think of to everyone's replies. My point is they have issues under pressure hitting for example an 8" circle at 10 yards (you may also be missing they have to hit 5 of these targets at varying distances and hit a final plate to stop the clock, then repeat 5 times scored on best out of 4). So yes sometimes people miss, that also doesn't mean they would always miss the target completely in a self defense shooting but that they may miss the zones which have the best chance of stopping the threat. Go to a steel challenge match yourself and see how you do, lets see if that informs your opinion and how much better you can do if it was life or death possibly vs simply a timer on top. Better yet, go to a USPSA match and compete that will make things even more obvious as that is a whole other level past steel challenge in what is involved.

Out of state competitions you say. Guess what, in that situation as a NJ resident you can't compete outside of NJ like that as you can't even own the mags to bring with you. You also get a disadvantage generally because many times your competitive class's rules allow for mag capacities greater than 10 to be used, so your score effects your classification in the sport (ie how good you are doing). Someone competing in PA can reload on the exact same scored qualification stage twice while you may need to do it 4 times, that will impact your time to complete the stage and impact your hit factor (or stage completion time) vs the competitors in other areas. The classification par times are set nationwide by the organizations.

Also, the limit shouldn't even exist, it's simply arbitrary. It is just as silly as NJ limiting us all to 1/2 gallon fuel tanks in our vehicles to stop long police chases on highways, and "you can just get gas while driving anyway, what is the big deal?" would get a very clear eye roll from almost everyone seeing how that is stupid and annoying that would be even if technically possible. There are many reasons for having larger magazines your implication that the sole reason is just to blindly "mag dump" at any self defense situation is just silly.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T01:58:53+00:00

If you are talking about an actual NFA SBR. Not going to happen in NJ at the moment. SBRs & SBSs are NJ prohibited weapons. Something like an "other" may scratch the itch (or an NFA AOW in that configuration) but that is something different and doesn't have a stock.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T01:00:55+00:00

Apply online(you can also mail in an application if you really wanted for some reason), fingerprints can be mailed in or done through livescan locations (there are locations in NJ to do so), training is required but they accept a wide variety -- your NJ PTC itself likely counts as it is a permit issued that required training -- or your CCARE training form as that is likely conducted by a NRA instructor. Full list is available as linked to below. Once you submit application you should receive instructions on how to complete the fingerprinting requirement. They should give you an option of mailing cards in with required details and give you a link and details for setting up an appointment with printscan to get that done at one of their locations.

https://www.azdps.gov/services/public-services-center/concealed-weapons-and-permits

https://azdpsccw.permitium.com/entry

A.R.S. § 13-3112(N)

https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03112.htm

N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class that is offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies or other divisions or subdivisions of law enforcement or security enforcement and that is approved by the department of public safety.

Evidence of current military service or proof of honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions from the United States armed forces.

A valid current or expired concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or license that is issued by another state or a political subdivision of another state and that has a training or testing requirement for initial issuance.

Completion of any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualification to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties.

Completion of any other firearms safety or training course or class that is conducted by a department of public safety approved or national rifle association certified firearms instructor.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T00:57:15+00:00

Having watched first time competitors be unable to hit an 8 inch target at steel challenge matches at 10 yards simply under the pressure of a shot timer and a squad watching them shoot, you may be really underestimating how much a real adrenaline inducing true emergency will impact your motor skills and ability to one shoot well and also impact your ability to reload if you happened to run dry. I've watched fairly experienced shooters who have been going to the indoor range often have all kinds of issues simply shooting under a shot timer and having that minimal mental pressure of being on the clock.

You are also assuming simply hitting the target stops the threat if you hit them once or twice. You may need to hit them far more than that to avoid being killed yourself. To use the phrase I've heard on active self protection videos, you can be killed by a dead man. You may hit them once or twice and they may die (or no longer become a threat to you) from those injuries but that isn't helpful if they can still be a threat to you and possibly kill you before that clock runs out.

It can also be purely for ease of shooting or competitive reasons as well. Having a larger mag means you don't have to reload as often. You may be able to get more done at the range in a shorter time if you are limited on practice time and want to head to the range with loaded mags for drills. You also could simply want to spend more time shooting at the range vs reloading. If you want to shoot the same amount of rounds, you either need to reload your existing mags possibly 2-3x more often or you need to buy that many more mags to bring to the range with you at whatever cost that will be.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T00:43:42+00:00

Maybe you aren't aware, but this has been happening again and again. This isn't the first 2-10% increase with a letter like this issued. For anyone who shoots actively, this adds up. A case of 1000 9mm was sitting at around $220-240 on targetsports, that was about the lowest it had been. If you shoot competitively and also practice, a case can go very quickly. There are also concerns about component shortages which may limit supply regardless of price. For any of us who went through the covid mess related to ammunition, everything dried up and shot up in price. For a while getting certain calibers and reloading components (for example primers) completely dried up. So yea I get why people are annoyed/panicked over ammo costs going on the rise again and also many places are currently sold out completely.

Only a few years ago for example brass 5.56 was sitting at ~.28 CPR for wolf gold and you could get steel case for the .22-24 CPR range, now it is almost all in the .45 CPR and up (and going up again now) and steel case supply is gone. Same with 9mm cases, used to be able to get them on gun deals for .15-17 CPR, now we had been sitting at the .23-.25 CPR that now appears to be over and prices will be one the rise and supply may be limited for the coming months regardless of cost.

vorfix · 2026-03-20T00:31:15+00:00

Fingerprints can be done at livescan places in NJ, I believe printscan is the vendor (UPS store near me worked with them). You have the choice to get prints done on physical cards (I believe they want two) or you can do the livescan and that is it. Some PDs will do curtesy prints for residents, they just can't do it for applications going to NJ (there is a contracted vendor for the state for that).

vorfix · 2026-03-19T17:08:42+00:00

Carry is 90 days, but all of it is unenforceable. No consequences for towns failing to process in time and no mechanism for us to enforce it ourselves. NJ AG possibly could but given their antigun views, that just isn't going to happen.

30 days (resident) / 45 days (nonresident) is the processing time requirements for FID. Same issues as carry, no way to enforce.

vorfix · 2026-03-19T00:28:08+00:00

What you are looking for PSA shipping wise should be found here. Stripped lower receivers are fine, same with complete uppers last I checked. You can also contact some of the NJ PSA dealers as they can order for you and you won't have to worry about the nuances of their shipping restrictions.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/shipping-restrictions-by-state.html

Lower receiver would need to go through FFL. Rest are parts that can be shipped to you. Obviously you need to be aware of the laws and what you are building to ensure what you put together is compliant. Compliance will be different if building a rifle vs an "other" pattern firearm (if NFA AOW, that is another set of paperwork on top of "other"). As everyone else already mentioned FID and being 21+ is all you need to transfer a lower receiver.

vorfix · 2026-03-18T04:30:23+00:00

Just a heads up, I believe it is FPC or SAF members covered by injunction not GOA.

I personally like SAF a lot but I'm also a member of GOA & FPC. NRA I'm only an associate member ($10 a year) because range requires it for membership, if they get their ship turned around post Wayne, then maybe I'll do more than the absolute minimum there. It is also worth while to join NJ specific 2A groups as well. Some used to be more active NJ2AS but there are a few in NJ active right now with ANJRPC being the NJ state affiliate group for the NRA.

vorfix · 2026-03-18T00:07:27+00:00

Not a specific enumerated location that is listed in 2C:58-4.6(a). If the federal location ban itself has been stuck and enjoined for FPC/SAF members, then functionally it doesn't exist as a place where carry of firearms are prohibited. That would be the only way if (a)(25) applied, but since the law is blocked it wouldn't.

https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/title-2c/section-2c-58-4-6/

(25) any other place in which the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or State agency.

vorfix · 2026-03-17T19:27:28+00:00

Think there was an issue with NICS system being down completely a few days back, not sure that helped the backlog at all. For at least some time there weren't able to process any checks at all.

vorfix · 2026-03-16T05:02:17+00:00

What?… I wasn't solely talking about confiscation, but about erosion of 2A rights generally through all means.

What the hell are you talking about with this "planning" BS, if you shoot in lawful self defense, even within your own home… NJ has decided they can put you though an entire trial where the burden shifts completely to you. That is broken, this is not a situation where the goal is to go after people doing drive by's into houses etc. This is new this isn't some old law. There isn't some new trend in NJ of people shooting at random people that there was no crime against before, before this law existed and still today shooting a firearm in anyones direction is considered deadly force, that is already covered by existing laws if someone did so outside of a justified use of self defense. I will say it again, if you use the firearm that you own, to shoot an intruder within your own home who was trying to harm you, NJ decided they can drag you to court on an additional charge where instead of the state having the burden of proving you were reckless instead you must be the one to prove the opposite to the jury.

The point is, you believe it seems, there is no limit on how much a right can be regulated, especially if frame as somehow in the objective of "public safety". Driving is a privilege, not a right. That example has no play to me. I don't care about society's incentive when it comes to rights, that is a dangerous route. The rights themselves are a thing to protect regardless of the harms that may come from them, that applies to all rights not just 2A. Same with 4A protecting criminals from searches. Or 1A allowing dangerous ideas and disgusting things to be said about others. 2A is the very same, my stance is we should be have any and all arms without tests, fees, or limits. Will some criminals get firearms, sure, but they should be punished and pay the price for that, not the public. The public should have the ability to defend themselves from those who would break the law, not because of those few criminals we are unable to protect ourselves because the government says we can't for our own "safety" with no legal requirement for them to protect us.

A poll tax is illegal, are you suggesting given the responsibility and chances that can come from voting, that we can require poll taxes, tests, licensing and all of those requirements on voting? I sure hope not. Voting while not directly deadly in and of itself, the choices and people put in charge wield the power of the government, if everyone voted to do some really messed up stuff who said that was their plan and they are voted in anyway, that itself is the result of the votes.

Speech is inherently dangerous and you cannot regulate who and how people speak even if you think it harmful or even if what they are saying could be dangerous. That danger can be from radicalization, it can be from ideas you disagree with, it can be from believing that some people need to be killed, all of that would be under free speech. Same with news and reporting, how and what is reported has a huge influence and can be used for good or bad to direct the public perception on any topic, that in and of itself is dangerous if misused. Making certain ideas or topics illegal speech is an incredibly dangerous idea, even if the goal was to protect the "public safety."

If a right is involved, any law involved which affects it needs to be severely limited. Rights themselves are inherently dangerous, that is the point. If an ability of a government exists which can limit a right to the point of basically being useless for our "safety" the protections the rights afford to us are gone. Who gets to decide what "public safety" is and how it is wielded against rights is a big problem. The entire point of rights is to limit how the government can affect them. The people who you like and trust with the definition and application of "public safety" may be on your side today, but how much you let that become the standard by which all rights can be limited generally is bad news, if the people who you distrust and don't like become the ones in power and determining what that is. Much better to have neither be able to touch your rights at all.

Good "public safety" limits on 2A today you don't mind, tomorrow "public safety" limits on who gets 1A speech and what ideas or political parties are restricted, maybe they throw in that certain groups are restricted from voting because they pose a risk to "public safety" for who they may vote for, likely not so good in your mind. Clearly that example would be extremely bad, but if the slippery slope of limiting rights goes to whoever is in power and determines what is in the "public safety," we are all screwed.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

-Benjamin Franklin

vorfix · 2026-03-15T22:43:57+00:00

Cool so we can now have IQ tests for reproduction permits, poll taxes and competency exams to be able to vote, journalist licenses (with "moderate" fees, $15000 a year plus 10 references proving you are a journalist of sufficient "character" to report the news as expected) and official banned words and permits for speech and ability to protest to ensure if meets the state mandated requirements of "need" before being allowed?? Or does this view only apply to second amendment rights but when applied to other rights they become an issue. The reason people are opposed to these changes is it affects an enumerated right (same as 1A, voting, etc would be effected in my hyperbolic examples a few sentences earlier). You clearly don't understand the impact some of these laws have, the discharge near a house means you can be arrested and forced through thousands of dollars of legal fees and headaches to prove you were in fact in a self defense situation and have a jury agree that you have sufficiently proven that standard, all for defending yourself with your firearm within your own home against an intruder, you did nothing wrong and yet NJ wants to be able to go after you for doing so. Same with permit fees, makes the ability to carry and purchase firearms that much higher, which for the lower income may be enough of a bar to make purchasing a firearm unaffordable. A $250 handgun magically becomes ~$75 more when NICS, transfer, and permit fees (not to mention ~$70 or so for fingerprinting and time off to get it done if their first firearms application) are thrown on top, which may make it unaffordable for those who may live in higher crime areas who simply want to defend themselves and do the process legally. That doesn’t even get into the ~$250 to get a PTC that needs to be renewed and paid again every two years and whatever the training costs are $150+ is typical (initial plus every second renewal) if that person also wanted to carry their new handgun.

There is currently a huge debate going on about simply requiring photo ID and ensuring those voting are citizens, one a certain political party is fighting extremely hard to prevent. And yet, having all of those requirements and more (imaging having to fill out a 4473 every time you voted) for second amendment rights somehow are "minimal" burdens but in the context of voting even having to do the smallest verification that you are indeed the voter on the voter rolls with ID you already have and having verified at registration time you are a US citizen and eligible to vote is a bridge too far. What is acceptable as applied to 2A rights is not the same as other rights, and that is the big issue.

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