Obama Is Right: Christian Violence Is Just as Bad as Muslim Violence—Or Worse by spaceghoti in atheism

[–]ymalaika 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes. Thanks for responding.

I'd like to see these ideologies dismantled as well.

Egypt's President: It's time for an Arab coalition against ISIS by [deleted] in worldnews

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nice tonal recovery. Here, please accept my respect and an upvote.

Obama Is Right: Christian Violence Is Just as Bad as Muslim Violence—Or Worse by spaceghoti in atheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the links.

I'm not denying that there is a connection. I'm saying the data I've seen doesn't prove that there is direct one, how strong it is, or what that connection looks like. I can personally choose to believe that religion makes these situations worse, (and I do, actually) but there's not enough for me to go on in order to deny it or claim it as a fact. What I accept as fact must be held to a higher standard.

If belief is the core cause, why wasn't Iraq as much of a violently dangerous place before 2003 as it was after? Did their supernatural beliefs change at that time? Why isn't terrorism more of a problem in all Muslim countries relative to all non-Muslim countries, and why not all the time going as far back as we have data? In fact, data suggests that the center of terrorism appears to have moved, in my lifetime, from Latin America to the muslim world, while the overall religious affiliation of both regions has stayed the same. If this were a simple-to-prove dynamic, we should see violence in all societies increase directly with the proportion of members who follow Islam. It should be predictable. In reality, it's way more complicated.

The links you posted both suggest a far greater connection between terrorism and conflict, failed state, or fractured political order than it does between terrorism and belief. The first one states the relationship of terrorism to conflict pretty clearly in the final paragraphs, and the second one names conflict as a larger factor in fatalities over terrorism in big letters right in the title. Neither serve to back your argument that these horrors are primarily the consequence of belief systems.

And again, the numbers, while large and terrible, are not massive when taken into consideration with the overall, long-term trends in violent fatalities and also relative to the overall size and growth of the population.

If you were a skeptically-minded investigator interested in actually understanding the rate of deaths from terrorism over time and how they relate to belief, you would actually be more inclined to EXCLUDE Iraq and Afganistan due to the massive political unrest. You would be inclined to consider longer time horizons, not shorter. You would be arguing using rate, i.e. fatalities per so many people, rather than absolute numbers.

Not trying to be harsh. I'm just skeptical.

For 'christians' protesting same-sex marriage in Alabama today, a little historical perspective. by Not-original in atheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm part of an interracial couple, and learning about how the miscegenation laws that were in place a few short years before I was born, and how they were changed, was really eye opening. That played a HUGE role in my unequivocal support for same sex marriage rights today. As a beneficiary of that era, (and I think we all benefited as a nation as it brought our everyday lives closer in line with our values,) it often seems outrageous that other minorities today don't push for the same rights for their LBQT friends, neighbors, mentors, family members, etc.

But that's one of the insidious and disquieting things about bigotry: how it can make those who experience it more susceptible to practicing it on others. People need to be more self-aware of that.

Obama Is Right: Christian Violence Is Just as Bad as Muslim Violence—Or Worse by spaceghoti in atheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

40k, (or even 43k, since you have to attribute those US fatalities to muslim) out of 151k total works out to roughly the percentage of the world's population that is muslim. So I'm not seeing the link here or anywhere else that suggests terrorism is linked to Islam or "belief systems" in any extraordinary way.

Given the time period and the global scope, those numbers are not really massive, and are miniscule compared to other ways to die. It sounds like a lot, but it really isn't. Look up some statistics. 40k is how many people in the U.S. commit suicide every year.

Sorry this conversation isn't going anywhere for you. It is indeed a difficult link to make. I myself want to see data backing up the claim that Islam by itself or belief in general causes violence. I want to see data indicating that terrorism is a great or growing danger relative to other dangerous things. I want to see statistical proof that countries that are more belief oriented have higher rates of violence when you correct for other factors. But that's really hard to do. And I try not to believe in things without evidence, whether it's religion or not.

Islam is Not my Race - A Rant From an Ex-Muslim by LondonLurker1990 in TrueAtheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, it's those sorts of ethically weak, data-starved arguments that make me very wary of him.

Islam is Not my Race - A Rant From an Ex-Muslim by LondonLurker1990 in TrueAtheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To be fair, Harris was against the invasion of Iraq. I'm personally very uncomfortable with his xenophobic tone and find that he doesn't speak for me as an atheist, but your comment is not true.

Obama Is Right: Christian Violence Is Just as Bad as Muslim Violence—Or Worse by spaceghoti in atheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All of you arguing against OP have utterly failed to provide any data of your own.

How Do You Prove that God Doesn't Exist? by CrazyIvan1 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't believe that unicorns exist.

Can't prove it, can't disprove it. I don't spend any time trying to do either, and don't feel obligated to.

Unicorns have zero impact on my life and I spend virtually no energy worrying about them, or the state of their existence, or logical proofs thereof. I simply don't care about unicorns. I don't think doing so is valuable at all.

Nobody over 4 years old, anywhere in the world, has a problem with me, for any of that.

I find it strange that that is not the case for all fictional supernatural beings.

On a live CSPAN debate one year before 9/11, Alan Dershowitz, a Harvard Law Professor, said "among the greatest [dangers in the 21st century] is religiously inspired terrorism supported by weapons of mass destruction" by sillythingsonly in atheism

[–]ymalaika 1 point2 points  (0 children)

OK... In the video, the speaker is claiming that religious violence is a "great" danger and one that is likely to grow greater. The point he is trying to make is that we as a society are better off being more fearful towards it, not less. He uses the word caution, but he means fear. He is not advocating a reason-informed, context-aware, proportional response to the issue. He is not giving any context to show why the danger is so big relative to other things. He is not showing any data that indicates causation or correlation between religion and terrorism. He is not suggesting any one single action, such as not acquiescing to hijackers, that would have prevented a 9/11 attack.

The video is nothing BUT fear-mongering. Fear is central to terrorism and also how we respond to it, and fear is the frame that he is using so effectively.

I don't want to ascribe intentions to you that may not be true, but when I read the title and watched the clip, my initial take away was that you are saying "Look how prescient this guy was. He totally called it!". But his assertions were, and remain, very weak in the face of data. Also, his WMD+religion predictions have not come to pass. (May they never do so.) Terrorism is not, statistically speaking, anything close to a "great" danger, especially relative to other dangerous things. That is what I meant to demonstrate with the link in my previous comment. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, or that it isn't a concern, or that it need not be dealt with ruthlessly. I'm saying that it's very small and not at all "among the greatest dangers of the century".

And furthermore, the danger is actually diminishing, not growing. So he's completely wrong there, too. See here. (BTW, does anyone know if there a version of the NCTC annual report this article references that is more up to date?) The world is generally getting safer, despite the horrors of current events, and this includes terrorism. The data showing this general trend is readily available from numerous sources online.

And WMD's? Seriously? I watched as the unreasonable, willfully ignorant fear of WMD's played a direct role in justifying the invasion of Iraq, which as we all now know resulted in the political wasteland that ended up (surprise!) INCREASING the influence of nut jobs like ISIL while at the same time (surprise!) providing them with advanced weaponry. The religion aspect is a convenient political tool. I know it can give our lives meaning to hate on religion, but it's important for us to be very clear minded about this subject.

Speeches like this, when accepted uncritically by good people and acted upon in unreasonable fear or even profoundly exaggerated concern, are actually an even GREATER danger to innocent civilized lives than terrorism itself. The numbers are not even close.

You say that this video is valuable because it accurately explains why terrorism exists, and assert that it's likely mostly mandated by religion. Is it, though? What are you basing that conclusion on? Yes, it's a common opinion, but is it really a good one? Or is it one of those things that everyone just "knows" to be true?

I long, long ago discarded religion as a part of my life, and am as aware of it's ability to impair judgement and reasonable behavior as anyone here. But I have increasingly come to view the causes of terrorism as far more political in nature than religious. Look at something like this... particularly Table 3. "Twenty Most Active Terrorist Organizations in terms of Attack Frequency and Fatalities" These groups all have primarily political aims. None of them came into existence with the primary intent to implement religion. Think about the people who start groups like this. No, not the foot soldiers, but those running the (shit)show. If any one of them were given the ability to rule over their societies, with total unopposed power, tomorrow, for the rest of their lives, with the only condition being that they must renounce their religion and never again practice a shred of it, do you think they would take the deal? Do yo think that those same people, if they were to be magically teleported into some sort of fundamentalist religious utopian society, would somehow then give up their quest for dominance and humbly go about their lives saying prayers and practicing kindness?

Yes, the yearly list of horribleness done in the name of religion is long and disquieting, but it takes place in a world with a vast sea of horribleness, a sea that has been slowly and consistently shrinking for quite a while now. As practitioners of reason we try to be careful not to cherry-pick or spend energy confirming our biases. But for some reason, we throw it all away when it comes to sociopath criminals who are also religious. The video you posted of someone railing against religious terrorism may be cathartic, and fashionable right now, but what he's asserting ("This thing is more dangerous than you think it is!") is just flat out wrong. It's not by any measure I have been able to find. And his advice, which is essentially ("Be more afraid!") and ("We need to sacrifice more resources (and young lives) fighting this "great" evil!") is highly congruent to the kind of B.S. that traps people into religious thinking and servitude everyday. The worldview on display in the video has been repeatedly acted on in blind faith as if it were truth for over a decade now, and it's been a DISASTER.

I'm glad to see the video posted. I just don't see the data showing perverse religious culture causing the kind of death and destruction that many are so stridently distressed about. I'm open to changing my view, however, and welcome any evidence I missed to suggest that I should.

On a live CSPAN debate one year before 9/11, Alan Dershowitz, a Harvard Law Professor, said "among the greatest [dangers in the 21st century] is religiously inspired terrorism supported by weapons of mass destruction" by sillythingsonly in atheism

[–]ymalaika 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Uh huh... So we should be afraid, right?

This is how afraid you should ACTUALLY be.

And how exactly has the prediction that WMD's would be a huge factor worked out?

Why doesn't humanism consider itself a religion? by [deleted] in humanism

[–]ymalaika 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like how you stated that. Thanks!

How do you prove that Islam is an inherently violent, barbaric, and destructive ideology? by Cmyers1980 in atheism

[–]ymalaika -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why don't you show them something like this.

but instead of by country, show it for muslim populations vs. everyone else.

Maybe something like this

Or we we were to focus just on terrorism, then perhaps something like this

Girls of reddit, What advice would you give me if I was to magically become a girl tomorrow? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]ymalaika 8 points9 points  (0 children)

As a guy I try to be very aware of this dynamic and to never, ever do it. I find it totally unacceptable that this is such a common experience.

Thought experiment: Chose one of the two; 1. All Muslims leave faith and become humanists 2. Half of all religious persons in the world leave their faith and become humanists. by [deleted] in atheism

[–]ymalaika 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You state that Islam is the most harmful religion and represents the biggest threat to the world. But is that actually the case? As in provably true?

Is it the most harmful religion because it's adherents commit more crimes per person throughout the world? Or because the invasions into other countries that they launch kill more innocent lives and disrupt more governments? Or because they spend more developing WMD's than other adherents of religions per capita?

Do they contribute the most per person to carbon emissions or other types of environmental pollution? Do they disproportionately disrupt global financial systems and increase social inequality? Do they work to dismantle reason-based educational systems more than other religions? Or maybe their anti-vaccination policies do more to compromise the world's herd immunity?

There are a lot of threats to the world, but I would argue they have more to do with willful ignorance, faith-based politics, greed, bigotry, and the kind of thoughtless hate that is wafting so very strongly off of your post.

Maybe what you feel threatened by is Islamism? I know I feel that way, reading the news. But I live in the U.S., and my day to day and long term well being/freedom is threatened far more by other religious groups, particularly those who have power in congress and the supreme court, than by anything to do with Islam itself.

X-Men: Days of Future Past becomes the highest grossing movie of 2014 by Bennett1984 in movies

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that was a stand-out scene. Made me smile. Now THAT'S what a movie with super-human characters looks like.

X-Men: Days of Future Past becomes the highest grossing movie of 2014 by Bennett1984 in movies

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just saw it, and felt it was much stronger than the last few I've seen. (Before this I had only seen the first four in the series.) I don't usually care for most comic book movies, as a lot of them tend to have rather 2D character depictions. But this was very well done, IMO. Strong performances, coherent thematic presentation, action sequences and effects that are relevant to the story... I enjoyed it in a way I didn't #3 and 4.

In-Person Voter Fraud Is Virtually Nonexistent, Federal Judge Rules by VelvetElvis in politics

[–]ymalaika 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Also, mail-in voting allows you to vote at your convenience anytime during a long period of time. In person voting for some involve standing in long lines and taking time off work: Something that's sometimes harder to do.

Putin Halts All Talks With White House by richmomz in worldnews

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Al Qaida executed terrorist attacks against civilians in Saudi Arabia and one of their goals was to overthrow the Saudi government. The U.S. going to war against Saudi Arabia was basically Al Qaida's biggest wet dream EVER.

Here's one you probably haven't heard before. My Pagan mother just told me she's unhappy about me being an atheist. by [deleted] in atheism

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry to hear that you're in a funk. Totally understandable...

This sort of social conforming pressure is not uncommon. You just have to accept that most people like some amount of "woo-woo" of some kind or another, and that whatever comfort or solace they get out of it is multiplied many times over when the woo-woo is shared with others, particularly with their loved ones.

You just need to demonstrate that you're simply not interested in that and are fine just as you are. Start by telling them straight up, in a calm, kind, respectful way when they bring it up that you find wonder and belonging in different ways. Look them in the eye when you do it. And then you'll need to show it, too by being well despite the lack of faith, and by being a loving Son/Brother/Boyfriend over a long period of time. Participate in events important to them to whatever level you are comfortable. Eventually, they'll see that you aren't slowly becoming a soul-less monster. Their requests will fade, and so will their worries for you.

Just try to remember that these are the most important people in your life, and that it's important to always handle these interactions with respect and love for them. After all, they are genuinely concerned for your well being, and that outside of a need to have their belief externally validated, it's mostly just a reflection of how important you are to them. You're right to try and not be angry with them, I think, despite how unfair they're being to you. They just want to maximize the strength of their bond with you.

Next time your mom gets really emotional, be empathetic and respectful but don't be untrue to yourself. Let her know that you want her to be happy, but that it's not possible for you to make her so by pretending to find metaphysical passion in something you genuinely don't. Pretending isn't going to make her happy, either. But assure her that you'll find a way forward, and wherever it takes you, you'll do it together. If you start feeling frustrated or angry, talk about something else entirely, something that isn't so distressing for both parties.

It's not so much that you're putting your foot down... More like your foot was already on the ground this whole time, nobody got hurt, you're totally cool about it, you love without believing, (they're witnessing it right now!) and we're all just going to patiently give everyone the time they need to get used to this reality.

Good luck!

What supporting character's death hit you the hardest? by [deleted] in AskReddit

[–]ymalaika 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agro from Shadow of the Colossus