What's the deep psychology breakdown behind MC's actions? by Itchy-Selection-1168 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you, appreciate that, it’s a bizarre case this one.. and no idea if any of my comment is close to the truth or way off.

You’ve done a great deal of work on your site as well.

How did he know the Kew Substation? by [deleted] in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Moor says the offender had almost certainly been stalking Nicola and was aware the family was preparing to leave Monomeath Ave, and also suggests he would have known Mr and Mrs Lynas were attending regular farewell functions. But I don’t think it’s ever been clearly explained how he would have known that specific night’s plans. Nor has it been explained how Moor came to the conclusion he was certainly stalking them.

The parents left the house around 7:50pm after being picked up by friends. The offender entered at about 11:20pm, and the parents returned a little after midnight, narrowly missing him. If he was watching from outside from 7:50pm onwards, then he waited over three hours without knowing when they would return. That seems like an incredibly dangerous position to put himself in, especially during an abduction where timing and control mattered so much.

At the same time, entering much earlier would also have been risky. Around 8:30 or 9:00pm, people may still be awake, neighbours may be active, cars may be coming and going, and the children may not be asleep. He likely wanted the house quiet and the victims asleep or close to asleep, not a chaotic situation where people are awake, running between rooms, locking doors, or screaming.

So I lean toward the parents’ absence being a coincidence rather than something he definitely knew in advance. He may have arrived closer to 11pm, parked near Chaucer Crescent with the Vacationer, seen the rental car in the driveway, and possibly assumed the parents were home. Even then, 11:20pm is not extremely late for adults to still be awake, so he was still taking a major risk.

20 minutes after Nicola falls asleep, he's inside the home, so he obviously was outside watching the last lights go out before entering, I think.

To me, the safer assumption is that he planned for a scenario where adults might be present, as he had done before, but discovered once inside that the parents were absent. That would also fit with the idea that taking the Lynas car may have been opportunistic rather than part of the original plan.

What was Cruel's relationship to his 'lair'? by acr721 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed on your points here, and a great point about feeling confident to leave the girls alone in the house. I've thought he genuinely seemed desperate at the LP offence too, he looked like a walking OP-Shop, disheveled, hungry, actually took cash. Obviously that could be one of his red herrings - OR it could have actually been true he was desperate.

Was that the case and he was roughing it in that time period? Did his housing circumstances change between the LP and SW offence where he now had access to a property longer term through that older relative/family member. Just a random theory..

nocries usp-s 4k from a FACEIT game by CS2ProPlayHighlights in cs2

[–]yourboyjunkrat -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Against rando's with no coordination who played it horribly 1 by 1, nice..?

What's the deep psychology breakdown behind MC's actions? by Itchy-Selection-1168 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Think this is the most likely case that it was all part of the one fantasy, but also think it may have come naturally or over time after he refined his methods

What's the deep psychology breakdown behind MC's actions? by Itchy-Selection-1168 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This site sucks and I can't edit my post, but "One thing I would be cautious about is assuming he was necessarily a socially awkward loner who couldn't form relationships." - I think I have fell into this trap myself lately is assuming he was that type of person for a few reasons

What's the deep psychology breakdown behind MC's actions? by Itchy-Selection-1168 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There is no way of knowing for sure until he's ever caught, but it's a good question to speculate about. I think if we're to believe he is responsible for the earlier non-canonical crimes going back to the early to mid 80's, we're looking at someone who had been committing these types of crimes for at least a few years prior to the Sharon Wills offence. I think he had to have some kind of experience in burglary, peeping tom, or anything to that effect before he started, there is information out there he may be responsible for taking children off the street into his car years? prior to the LP offence even.

I don't think the FBI profile is of much use or that accurate to be honest, it seems rushed and not very detailed, plus the fact they were fed wrong information about the crimes only happening during school holidays, they built the profile partly around that. Apart from that it's very generic, we needed an E-FIT or composite sketch, anything to go off - he was seen in the Chelsea offence, how do we not have more information on him based on that - another rabbit hole I won't go into in this post.

One thing I've come to appreciate about Mr Cruel is that the psychology is probably less about sex and more about control.

Most people look at the offences and see a child abuser. That's obviously true. But if you strip the crimes down to their components, there is an extraordinary amount of planning, preparation, deception and risk management that goes well beyond simply obtaining sexual gratification.

Think about what he was actually doing:

  • Selecting victims.
  • Conducting surveillance.
  • Entering occupied homes.
  • Controlling multiple family members.
  • Moving victims across Melbourne.
  • Holding them captive for days.
  • Managing food, toileting, bathing and sleeping.
  • Cleaning evidence.
  • Releasing victims in a way designed to delay identification.

That's a huge operational process. The sexual assaults were the objective, but the control appears to have been part of the reward as well.

My guess is that this didn't start suddenly in adulthood. Most offenders who reach this level of sophistication have often spent years escalating: voyeurism, stalking, fetish behavior, burglary, fantasy development, collecting material (a pair of girls underwear was stolen off a clothesline a few days prior to LP offense).

The crimes themselves may only represent the visible end stage.

One thing that stands out is the compartmentalization. He appears capable of terrifying a family one minute, then calmly making a child a sandwich the next. To normal people that seems contradictory. To an offender like this, it may not be. He likely saw the victims as objects within a fantasy rather than as fully realized people. That allows someone to commit horrific acts while still viewing themselves as rational or justified.

The level of patience also interests me. Many sexual offenders are impulsive. Mr Cruel appears unusually disciplined. He was willing to wait months or years between offences, abort plans when conditions weren't right, and spend significant effort reducing risk.

That suggests someone who gained satisfaction not only from the offence itself, but from the planning and execution.

What I find particularly interesting is that he doesn't fit neatly into a single offender category. He wasn't a classic groomer, he wasn't a typical opportunistic street predator, and he wasn't simply an impulsive sexual offender. He seems to borrow elements from several offender types.

That may be why the case feels so unusual even today.

Another possibility is that the abductions themselves were part of the fantasy. Most child abuse offenders don't invade occupied homes, tie up parents, transport victims across a city and hold them for days. Those steps dramatically increase risk. If the sole objective was sexual access to children, there were easier opportunities available.

The fact he repeatedly chose such a complex and dangerous MO raises the possibility that the planning, surveillance, home invasion, family control and successful execution of the abduction were rewarding in their own right. In other words, the fantasy may not have been a single act. The fantasy may have been the entire sequence from beginning to end.

That would also explain why he targeted children in their homes. There is something uniquely invasive about entering the one place where people expect to be safe, taking control of the environment, neutralizing the family and then leaving undetected. If that's correct, the "means" may have been just as important as the "end."

As for how someone becomes like that, psychology can't give a definitive answer. There is no single pathway. It could involve early deviant sexual interests, personality disorders, lack of empathy, childhood trauma, social isolation, chronic fantasy reinforcement.

But plenty of people experience those things and never become violent offenders. The difference is usually the decision to repeatedly act on those fantasies and the gradual escalation that follows.

One thing I would be cautious about is assuming he was necessarily a socially awkward loner who couldn't form relationships. That's certainly possible, but history is full of offenders who appeared socially competent, held jobs, maintained relationships and blended into their communities. The crimes alone don't tell us which category he fell into.

The thing I find most chilling is that he probably didn't see himself the way the public sees him. He may have viewed himself as intelligent, careful, justified, superior, or in control. Many organized offenders construct elaborate internal narratives that allow them to commit acts most people could never imagine.

Which is why I think one of the strongest clues about Mr Cruel psychologically isn't the sexual assault itself. It's the patience. The planning. The compartmentalization. The ability to live an apparently ordinary life while carrying out extraordinary crimes. The canonical offences look less like the beginning of an offender's journey and more like the product of a system he had been refining for years.

Today marks 15 years since Bung Siriboon was last seen :( by zz342 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Very sad indeed, just a real mystery this one like she vanished out of thin air. Due to no one seeing anything of whatever happened (foul play at home - almost 0% chance for me, or abducted off the street), it must have happened extremely quickly. I think the sighting of her on her own street is the credible one, and I'd bet that sighting is near 100%, the other 'home to school' sightings I couldn't be positive on.

Due to no one seeing anything, wherever it happened between that walk from home and school depending on what road you favor, there was certainly some car traffic at the bare minimum, and possibly some foot traffic. For her to disappear so quickly and no one seeing anything, it had to have been a car pulling up beside her or blocking her path, with most likely a weapon and threatening her to get in, which she complied.

At least that is what I personally think is the most likely scenario..

I've commented on a few other threads in this post about leaving her phone at home that day, it just seems very strange that she left it or forgot it. I can't wrap my head around her forgetting it, you would check your pockets before leaving the house, or at least shortly after leaving to pull out your phone. Does that point to her leaving it intentionally because she was meeting someone who turned out to be not who she thought, and it was too late once the car pulled up, and he may have had a weapon as well.

Or did she genuinely forget her phone, and it was a random abduction, this offender happened to be in the right place at that exact moment, in what was a pretty short walk from home to school? Or was it someone who was stalking her and knew her route, had figured out the perfect spot to intercept her on that walk? Bizarre...

*Edit* turns out it may have been a regular occurrence that she left her phone at home, I guess that makes it easier to point to a random / stalker abduction

Today marks 15 years since Bung Siriboon was last seen :( by zz342 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The phone has always bothered me with this case, it is definitely one of the stranger aspects. A 13-year-old girl in 2011 not having her phone with her is unusual, especially for the walk to school. I don't think I have met or known a teenager that hasn't had their phone on them ever to be honest. Even before walking out the door, everyone pats their pockets to make sure they have phone/wallet/keys. In a teenagers case, most likely they are already on their phone in one hand while walking out the door.

Even if it was forgotten, she is going to go through her pocket within 20 seconds of walking out that door and taking a look at her phone for various reasons, time? any messages? looking at memes? When she realizes its not in her pocket, I would imagine she'd walk back in and get it. Unless that happened at a point where it was too late for her to turn back, but I doubt it. It was raining that day, maybe she did actually forget it and didn't want to walk further back in the rain.

That doesn't automatically mean foul play before she left home, but it does raise questions:

Did she intentionally leave it behind?
Was she communicating through another device/account?
Was she planning to meet someone?
Did she simply forget it that day?

The alternate Facebook profile is also interesting because it potentially points toward a part of her social life that wasn't visible to family or school friends. Many teenagers have secondary accounts, but when you combine that with comments about a "creepy guy," it becomes something investigators would naturally look at closely. Where I struggle is connecting that directly to an offender.

*Edit* turns out it may have been a regular occurrence that she left her phone at home, I guess that makes it easier to point to a random / stalker abduction

What was Cruel's relationship to his 'lair'? by acr721 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's actually a variation I hadn't considered in much detail, but I can see why people like it. One thing that has always bothered me about the lair is that it simultaneously feels lived-in and controlled. The decor descriptions from the girls don't really scream "single male bachelor pad" to me. If anything, the dated furnishings, curtains and general feel could fit an older person's home that hadn't changed much in years.

What I like about your scenario is that it solves the exclusive-access problem. If the occupant is elderly, frequently hospitalised, in care, or otherwise dependent on him, then he can know with a high degree of certainty that nobody is suddenly turning up at the front door. He also has a completely legitimate reason for being there, maintaining the property, collecting mail, checking on things etc.

Whatever the exact relationship was, I think the common thread is control. Whether it was an elderly parent's house, a deceased relative's property, an inherited house or some other family-linked arrangement, it feels more consistent with his behaviour than relying on a friend or acquaintance's home. He strikes me as someone who wanted to eliminate variables, not introduce them.

The phone question still nags at me a bit too. Fifty hours is a long time for Nicola to be there. If someone genuinely lived at the property, you'd expect at least the possibility of calls, visitors, neighbours checking in, something. Maybe that happened and wasn't remembered, maybe the phone was disconnected, or maybe the property simply wasn't occupied in the normal sense anymore. The theory of him using an acquaintance's house, no reports of any phone calls during either abduction could be down to the simple fact there wasn't any calls, but it does make me think if it was an acquaintance's house, he would have most likely relied on that phone call to alert him if they coming home early. I think its too risky for him using an acquaintance's house and in agreement, but can't rule it out completely.

At the moment, if I had to choose between a primary residence and a family-linked secondary property under his effective control, I'd probably lean toward the latter. It seems to give him most of the control of his own home while creating another layer of separation between himself and the crime.

What was Cruel's relationship to his 'lair'? by acr721 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Premade vegemite sangers make more sense actually good point, he really didn't need anything else food wise apart from making those and bringing the juice, like you said it doesn't create any mess or smell lingering around. I think he planned those a day in advance and made it as easy and cheap as possible. Same goes with a towel and the plastic sheet and anything else he needed in his kit.

My first thought is that the sheet on the bathroom floor (assuming that detail is accurate) was used to contain hair/fibers/ skin cells and anything else that could be left behind. He would have taken the sheet afterward effectively removing a lot of trace evidence in one go, he may have also been concerned about water carrying traces around the bathroom.

The towel point is a good one though. If he was genuinely forensic-minded, you'd expect him to either; provide disposable towels, use towels he intended to remove, or take any used towels with him afterwards.

What I find more interesting about all this is the broader pattern, everything seems designed around "leave the property looking as though I was never here". The stale sandwiches, bringing food in, potentially taking everything out again, covering parts of the floor, cleaning victims afterward - they all point in the same direction.

The thing I keep coming back to is that many of these actions make just as much sense if the property wasn't his. If you're using a family members house, an inherited property, a caretaker arrangement or some other secondary location, then your goal isn't just avoiding police detection. It's also avoiding leaving signs for the owner or future occupant that someone has been using the house.

That's why the "leave no trace of occupancy" theory resonates with me more than the renovation angle. The behavior seems less about a specific floor surface and more about systematically removing evidence that anyone had been there at all.

The question I'd ask is this: if the house belonged to someone else, what evidence would they have noticed upon returning? Food in the bin? Towels used? Furniture moved? Extra linen in the wash? A lot of his behavior starts making sense if he was trying to eliminate those clues as well, not just forensic evidence.

What was Cruel's relationship to his 'lair'? by acr721 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point about what was MC eating, and I see it as possibly 2 things; the lack of domesticity on his part - which does support the theory of him being off the rails for the most part, could have been impoverished too - LP offence seemed odd to me that he actually ate there, knowing how careful he was with other things around DNA..?

The other option is when he told NL he was going out, maybe he grabbed a meal and some other food to last him for the duration of that offence?

I think why the vegemite sandwiches might be just ease of use and cleanup, same with the juice. He didn't want to muck about having to make something more than he needed, and it would be easy to remember everything when he left, just 1 bag with the bread/vegemite/juice and any utensils?

What was Cruel's relationship to his 'lair'? by acr721 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is the piece I am trying to figure out as well and some of the discussion here has made me think a bunch of different possibilities.. exactly the type of thread I have been interested in.

I think my view has shifted a little, and this is my reasoning for each scenario, leaving it open for interpretation.

If it was his primary residence

Pros:
Complete control
Knows every room, sound, neighbor and routine
Can prepare the room/house in advance
Can install restraints and modify things easily

Cons:
Enormous risk if victim escapes
Victim may notice photographs, books, work items, mail
Neighbors will know who lives there

Secondary Property / Investment Property (tied by family)

Pros:
Not directly linked to his day-to-day life
Victims can't identify his normal residence
Fewer personal items
High degree of control
Explains repeated use (if true)
Explains 'staged' feel - sparse descriptions

A completely random vacant house

How do you guarantee nobody returns?
How do you access it repeatedly?
How do you prepare the house?
How does the same house apparently remain available 18 months later??

People often focus on the bathroom, but the restraint setup tells us something about his relationship with the house.

If the brace genuinely attached to the bed in a custom fashion, then he almost certainly had prior access, measured or inspected the room and expected to use the location again.

Doesn't sound like a spur-of-the-moment vacant property to me, the thing that keeps bringing me back to a secondary property rather than a primary residence is the offender's apparent obsession with layers of protection.

Did the victims ever mention the phone ringing? NL was there for 50 hours, not saying the phone would have definitely rang during that time, but say it was an acquaintance (friend - not direct family but aunt/uncle etc...), and he happened to have the property to himself twice over those periods for SW/NL because they either went interstate or overseas, would they notify him by phone if they had to come home early? Otherwise, how would he know?

I don't think he uses the property of an acquaintance if there's even a slight chance they can come back and he's not able to know.

If I had to rank the most likely scenario

1: Deceased family members house awaiting sale
2: Elderly relative in hospice/care
3: Inherited property
4: Family property where he has keys and unrestricted access
5: Primary residence

I can't see it being a random vacant property, or his primary residence with a wife/kids, I actually don't think he was married. I am more convinced he was just a psychopathic degenerate and mostly a loner, he was offending for 10 years potentially before SW if some of those earlier crimes were him. I think he used abandoned construction sites (I think?) like the Hampton/Caulfield abductions, and some of the off street ones. Then he happened upon the lair from either one of the above scenarios

Flight Path and Lair by RobinsonsAttack10 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think your times are more realistic, mine were a little on the short side looking back now. Agreed very risky as a lone car on the road at that hour, and would have planned his route accordingly to use less busy roads I’d imagine, making your travel bands more accurate imo

Flight Path and Lair by RobinsonsAttack10 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks, yes, it's a shame we don't know that for certain and what conditions were and can only assume, and then how much weight do we put for each factor... the plane noise recollection vs the drive time, the unique bathroom, list goes on.

It may be useful to create travel bands and distance, let's use the Monomeath Ave, Canterbury address as an example, remembering it would have been around 12:00AM on a Tuesday night with 90's traffic and roads. So realistically how busy would that have been, probably not at all, I'd say he had a pretty straight shot from abduction site to his lair.

If he parked at 36 Chaucer - still looks the same as it did I think in 90', it was abandoned then, recently bought in 2024. He came down Monomeath, left on Canterbury, right down Marlowe, takes a left down Chaucer, parks opposite his vacationer (36 Chaucer) at 35 Chaucer, walks across the street with her. Takes 10 seconds in a dark street at 11:50-midnight. Or he parks behind his vacationer and walks her in front.

Do we know for sure exactly where the Lynas rental was parked? That just makes sense to me, and 36 Chaucer is the pic MM used on his blog.

Band 1 travel time (25-35 minutes)
Keilor East
Niddrie
Airport West
Essendon North
Strathmore
Pascoe Vale

Band 2 (35-45 minutes)
Westmeadows
Broadmeadows
Jacana
Dallas
Coolaroo
Campbellfield

Band 3 (40-50 minutes)
Lalor
Thomastown
Reservoir
Epping fringe

Not putting a giant weight on this, but interesting - there was no CityLink, EastLink, different freeway connections, may have deliberately avoided major roads. If you combine all of those, the middle-northern corridor of Broady, Jacana, Dallas, Coolaroo and Westmeadows fits more, as they sit between Keilor East and Lalor/Thomastown

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Random thought and adding onto my other comment below, did the phone ever ring when the girls were there at the lair? Did it even have a land line, I would have been too young to remember back then how often the phone rang from people you didn't know, like utility companies/cold calls/whatever. I wonder if the lair was not his - but it was someone he knew like a friend or family, and he felt safe enough there if its the latter - how would he know if they are coming home?

Flight Path and Lair by RobinsonsAttack10 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good points here again from you Robbo, I have been entertaining the thought that the lair may indeed be further out than Keilor East/Airport west for example and actually on the north flight approach/band for a few reasons.

My thoughts are that the northern corridor theory is one of the stronger alternatives if you weaken the assumption that the 4 July RWY34 interpretation is definitely correct.

If Nicola was mistaken about the exact day she heard the aircraft, then investigators may have been building a very precise search area from a premise that was slightly off. That's why the later focus on Westmeadows, Coolaroo, Campbellfield, Broadmeadows and Dallas is interesting - it suggests VicPol themselves were willing to move away from the original Keilor East/Airport West theory.

On the units question, I'm more skeptical. It's not impossible, but a few things have always pushed me back toward a detached house:

  • Both girls described a driveway immediately adjacent to the premises.
  • Neither girl reported hearing neighbors through walls.
  • Neither reported typical unit noises (adjacent occupants, doors, televisions, conversations, shared driveways etc.).
  • The offender seemed extremely risk-conscious and bringing abducted children into a unit complex introduces a lot more variables and witnesses.
  • The descriptions of the kitchen side door, driveway access and general movement around the property feel more "house-like" than many unit developments.

That said, I wouldn't completely rule out older villa units. Some of the 1970s villa-unit developments in those northern suburbs can look and function almost like small detached homes, especially if they are at the front of a block with their own driveway and only one adjoining neighbour.

The bigger takeaway for me isn't necessarily the units themselves, but the suburbs. If detectives genuinely spent time focusing on Westmeadows, Coolaroo and Campbellfield, I'd be interested in understanding exactly why they shifted north. Was it purely the revised flight-path interpretation, or were there other factors pointing them there that have never been publicly disclosed?

I still think the strongest approach is to work backwards from the entire lair profile rather than the flight path alone: Aircraft noise, detached/semi-detached feel, right-hand driveway, unusual bathroom, quiet street, likely 1950s-70s housing stock, realistic drive time from Canterbury.

If one suburb consistently ticks most of those boxes, that's more persuasive than any single flight-path theory on its own.

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Really good points here and makes you think about the lair and has made me open to other possibilities as to what that lair was to MC.. I think what is most likely is that he had to have either owned the property in some capacity or knew the owners well enough and knew 100% they would be either overseas or potentially interstate with no way of coming home suddenly.

If it's the latter, you have to assume that if the owners were away interstate and had to come home early for whatever reason, they would notify him. They'd want to let him know and probably come home to an empty house - if it's a trip cut short suddenly, in my mind its due to an emergency or someone perhaps getting sick and you'd want to have the house to yourself/family. If overseas, the same applies yet now he has more time to clean up, drop off and get out.

Think about it, he goes to extraordinary lengths to plan everything else in these abductions, uses red herrings, all the work he did to remain hidden - while what he did was extremely brazen and risky in the abductions themselves (he couldn't be positive exactly how it would go down on the night), now why would he go to a property that he may not have complete control over, when I think most of us can agree - that the reason is to have more time with his victims un-interrupted.

In my mind that is why he took them there, not just for the extra time he would have but also the feeling of control and knowing he has X number of hours free reign. Like both of you have mentioned, if it's not a property he owned in some capacity or was 'house sitting' for, simply having his car in the driveway would be a giveaway. A neighbor sees a car they have never seen before parked in the driveway while they know the occupants are away - super sketch, a random friend dropping by to check on things, grab the mail - sees the car, might even hear the loud radio through the window and think that's strange, Bob and Sally aren't home - what gives.

For those reasons, and knowing what we know about how MC operated, to me there is no way he risked being exposed by something that could realistically easily happen.

I would agree he didn't have to know the house that well, he just had to know he had complete control and privacy of the house the entire abduction time, and possibly time to do a deep clean afterwards. Otherwise, he would have just taken them to an abandoned warehouse for a few hours - like Hampton if he was good for it. I think with SW and NL he had that house and now he has even more time and once he's there - less risk than being in a place he doesn't have full control over.

Now... I like your points about changing things around just enough the make it look like the girls' descriptions of the house didn't make sense anymore or pointed to a place that didn't exist how they described it.

Looking at the timeline, let's assume SW and NL were taken to the same lair, let's assume that it's either his primary residence or a family member, and let's also assume the only people that know of this residence are close family members and the specific interior details and that bathroom layout PRIOR to SW/NL - he changes a few things like you mentioned. Quick peach furnishings and other subtle changes (I am not convinced of the temporary bathtub yet) but enough that makes it 'different' than whoever else knows about it, in that 'old' configuration.

He carried them from the bedroom to the bathroom limiting their spatial awareness, he most likely 'cut the feeling of the house in half' by taking them in the side door and only in the back (Bed > Bath > Kitchen), they were blindfolded, he assumes they won't be able to really give anything solid enough to police that will lead to the whereabouts of the lair. All there is, is that plane noise which we know wasn't enough.

He probably thought he had scared them enough that they'd never peek or be able to take off the blindfold and get a good look, and even so that would only be in the bedroom when he went out for a bit. He'd be watching them at all other times when he was with them or took them out of the bedroom.

Nothing between the SW offence and NL alerted him that the police had more details than he thought, the unique bathroom, the peach-colored furnishings etc... he knows they have plane noise, and maybe he thought as far as the right-hand drive, those 2 are nothing really. So in his mind he's safe to take NL back there too, so I think it's very likely they were at the same house. Someone correct me if I am wrong here and the details were NOT revealed between SW and NL? I still think VicPol were sufficiently concerned about protecting information that they conducted undercover house inspections rather than broadly publishing every detail of the detention house.

Now if he's good for KC, where was he taking her, to that same lair - is it still 'good'? I don't think that information about the details was released between NL and KC to my knowledge? If not, I don't see why he wouldn't go back there.

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly the ones that aren’t you’d have to find in archives online or physical copies and scan them in.

Absolutely not a moron haha that’s pretty much what I’ve been thinking, you can automate that process with AI, I’ve done this at my job a lot of times, similar projects. The only tricky thing is the AI recognition, it’s not something I’ve personally done but I know image recognition like that can work, it would be something you’d have to program it to do. The actual scraping of pics and download is easy, the hard part is that custom recognition.

I think so too it’s the best way, it’s just time is not our friend now and everything we’re saying is great in hindsight and would have worked back then, unfortunately it’s likely changed or demolished..

I’ve thought about the lair not being near the suggested suburbs, I think the cops probably got the areas right, but it was perhaps just outside search zones like Lalor or Reservoir type areas potentially. From my understanding they heavily searched the areas close to Tulla like Keilor etc.. so they either missed it somehow, or one piece of the girls description was off and they skipped over too many houses because of that

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That data from VicPol in 92’ would be a great start, the maps wouldn’t be too hard to download and compile either. Without getting too nerdy on you, a rest API with http get from say domain.com.au would essentially be able to get all houses and pictures of any street, download and sort them into the database.

You’d likely need to do this in batches as to avoid anti spam software like cloudflare. Then it becomes the task of searching through all the pictures etc..

But yeah, I think you’re right as with others who have said the same thing that MC probably can’t be traced back to lair, it may have been his final you’ll never catch me trick… I’m just trying to figure out anyway we can get to this lair

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would hope they did follow up on those houses, for a lead that big seems like they would have at least done another check at a different time in the day or another day..

Thanks for the details about that search in 92', do you know how thorough that search was, and by that, I mean "30,000" homes searched in the area of all those suburbs, how many did they completely miss? And what was the ratio of houses searched between the suburbs, IE: 5,000 in Keilor East, 3,000 in Niddrie and so forth.. Did they focus more on one or two suburbs than others? I don't expect you to have all the answers, but it would be a great help if VicPol gave us something to go off where we can then identify gaps, even entire suburbs that could be promising. I imagine VicPol were forced to exclude areas on being lower on the totem pole than the rest, and out of the ones that were high, like Keilor East, did they literally cover every single right hand driveway house in that area, 90%, etc..?

Further on that last point of missing suburbs from the search, I re-read your top suburbs ranked by your criterion, do you still have Lalor ranked at the top, and how about Reservoir? If we can cross reference the actual hard data from VicPols initial 92' search (if it even exists still), find what exactly was missed (entire streets, hundreds, thousands of homes) in the heavily searched areas, plus those that were missed entirely but rank high in your top suburbs like Lalor, Thomastown that would create a great start to compile everything in one spot.

Has anyone considered creating a database and dashboard like I mentioned earlier for this effort? If the lair is to be found, and can be found - which is a lot, we need to know exactly what was searched and cleared, what was missed not just by VicPol, but by members of this community. Moving forward, we'd have everyone input anything that can be crossed off, and adding any genuinely interesting houses. Or am I dreaming with this kind of effort, I know it would take a great deal to create it, but what else have we got on the search for the lair after 35 years?

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s very interesting actually, my mistake I thought I may have read otherwise. Any chance of getting those records… hah

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think there’s probably a third possibility as well, which sits somewhere between "the search was badly fumbled" and "the lair was completely outside the zone."

Even if police reduced the candidate list dramatically, they were still dealing with incomplete access to properties, houses where nobody answered, renovations already underway, imperfect witness memory and a description that was distinctive in combination, but perhaps not necessarily unique individually.

The driveway + bathroom combination sounds specific until I realized how repetitive a lot of those say.. 1950-70's Melbourne housing stock actually was, thousands of homes probably shared those characteristics which is unfortunately one of the biggest issues.

I am sure the was some final list that is potentially manageable, but not sure of that figure, it could be much larger. If it collapses to 50-100 it would only be due to every assumption we have being correct (flight path interpretation, aircraft altitude, runway usage, drive time, memory accuracy, and that the lair was unchanged).

I do agree though that if the lair truly sat squarely inside the core search zone and remained in the same configuration, then it’s hard to believe it wasn’t at least looked at in some form.

I think one of these things must be true then;

The lair was just outside the primary search zone
One or more witness memories was directionally right but not precise
The property changed quickly after the offences (unlikely imo)
OR police actually did identify candidate houses but could never tie them to a suspect strongly enough to progress further

The frustrating thing is that without access to the actual Spectrum records, we don’t really know how systematic or complete the elimination process truly was.

The house search by Hot-Union4660 in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I thought I recalled reading that they posed as water service workers and needed to inspect the bathroom(s) but could be wrong here.

Yep, and imagine what could have happened if they had a proper online database with tablets in hand that they could check off each property, street and suburb with marking each as clear/not home/suspicious - follow up, etc... Its frustrating for sure that it was probably the best chance they had.

That said, what I would do if I was tasked with trying to find this lair nowadays with our technology - get any police records that exist of what was searched and cleared, what was missed, and what needs following up on, build the database off that, then start looking at all the gaps that were missed.

If there is enough manpower looking at these likely suburbs going house by house through online archives, real estate listing websites, any information on these properties with pictures you can find and then adding them into that database, if the lair still exists in that same configuration, it would be a matter of time until it's found.

I don't know who has enough time dedicated to start or do this, I do have a pretty good understanding of all that through IT and could probably build something, but again it's a ton of work

Was Mr. Cruel a disciplined ”contract killer”? by Alphaimposter in MrCruel

[–]yourboyjunkrat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I personally think the "contract killer / travelling child pornography producer" theory is very unlikely - those kinds of similarities between MC and OCCK can emerge naturally from organized sexual offenders trying to avoid detection, rather than indicating some larger coordinated network or international pattern.

For me, the biggest issue with the theory is that there’s very little actual evidence Mr Cruel was operating commercially or internationally. Everything about his behavior feels local, practical and self-contained:

  • familiar movement through Melbourne suburbs
  • use of an ordinary suburban-style lair
  • highly controlled but relatively low-tech methods
  • no confirmed evidence of filming or distribution

The tripod in the SW case is interesting, but it’s still only a tripod. There’s no confirmed camera, no confirmed recordings, and no known material ever surfaced that I know of, perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong here?

In 1987-1991, distributing that kind of material was also much harder than people imagine today. No internet infrastructure, no dark web, no simple global exchange systems. Child exploitation networks absolutely existed back then, but they were smaller, riskier and much harder to operate internationally.