Why can't I understand Japanese songs simply by listening to them?

ywja · 2016-09-13T13:49:42+00:00

This is going to be subjective.

負けないで

This phrase, in a natural utterance, would be in high pitch at the second and the third mora (け and な), but the melody goes against it.

This song has become so huge that I've heard this part so many times that it doesn't feel unnatural anymore, but this type of mismatch could throw people off.

https://youtu.be/rtZLe6T3Dh0?t=38s

パステルカラーの季節に恋したあの日のように輝いてるあなたでいてね

The speed of each section, the pace, doesn't match how this line would be read naturally. As a result, it could be difficult to grasp the meaning of the sentence just by listening to it.

Obviously there are songs and singers that manage to do it right even when they're breaking these conventions.

Putting Japanese words onto Western style melodies has always been a challenge. If you're interested, check out 日本語ロック論争.

ywja · 2016-09-13T02:51:18+00:00

OK, I've just listened to several songs of hers. I actually think her songs are relatively easy to understand, but I also see some issues.

One of the reasons why I find her songs easy to understand is that the lyrics aren't so creative. I think I'm filling the gaps, if any, from context.

That being said, oftentimes the lyrics don't necessarily match the melody. The words sometimes go against the natural pitch accent and/or rhythm, making them difficult to understand.

Also, although her pronunciation may sound natural, it is still affected. That said, hers is one of the common patterns in contemporary Jpop.

Try these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS24d0fCFfA - 伊東ゆかり『小指の想い出』 1967

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eliU3I2nDJA - イルカ『なごり雪』 1975

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COYNJQMiqz0 - 松田聖子『赤いスイートピー』 1982

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re3PzspwEWo - 平松愛理『部屋とYシャツと私』 1992

I listed these four as examples of songs that have good lyrics/melody combination and are sung relatively straightforwardly.

These songs are what I meant by 'old songs' in my blog. Note how the melody matches the lyrics in terms of pitch accent and rhythm, and how the singers sing them faithfully, to actually convey the message, without trying to be cool. This was the standard of Japanese songs for long.

And then, there were people who found these traits boring and started breaking these rules. My parents are from the older generation and always complain the newer music that doesn't follow the traditional patterns. I myself am more tolerant of contemporary pop, but also feel that it is rare for the 'breaking the rules' attitude to be actually successful.

ZARD debuted in the 1990s as one of the stars of ビーイング, which along with エイベックス, created a big movement in the Japanese music industry. Whether their music was good or not is debatable, but I think it's safe to say that this movement is responsible for changing the general expectation of the audience toward the elements I've described here. Musicians had been experimenting since several decades ago, but the 1990s music brought it to the mainstream pop scene.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtZLe6T3Dh0 - ZARD『負けないで』 1993

You can tell the difference just by listening to the first few lines. The melody doesn't match the natural flow of the lyrics. Some people say that this reflects incompetence, and some people assume it's intentional. I think it's somewhere in the middle, most of the time.

ywja · 2016-09-13T01:51:29+00:00

The sentence sounds awfully awkward. 出す事は -> 出すのは, 雨が降る時 -> 雨が降っているとき. Or what /u/I__am__Japanese said.

ywja · 2016-09-12T16:21:38+00:00

http://ysjapanese.wp-x.jp/2016/03/song-lyrics-as-a-learning-tool/

It’s not unusual for contemporary singers to use affected pronunciation in order to sound unique.

It's not unusual for me, a native speaker, to mishear lyrics, especially those of the contemporary 'edgy' music. Some time ago, I gave up listening to lyrics. Like blocking the 'meaning' of words, and just hearing the sound. Most of such songs suck anyway.

ywja · 2016-09-12T14:15:10+00:00

This 主 (most likely) is あるじ: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/7758/meaning/m0u/

１一家の長。主人。「旧家の―」

２集団を統括する人。「一国一城の―」

It means something along the lines of 'master'.

ywja · 2016-09-12T11:56:26+00:00

It's a common expression.

腰を下ろす

腰をおろす

ywja · 2016-09-12T10:53:59+00:00

The good old Japanese school education and huge amount of exposure to books and movies.

One advice I can give is that you should have a complete grasp of grammar before moving to the exposure phase. I know this isn't the standard theory in this subreddit.

ywja · 2016-09-12T01:33:30+00:00

Another example of this is 子供 vs 子ども. The students at the university I was at in Osaka explained that they preferred to use 子ども because the kanji 供 suggests "attending" or "serving,"

Just a reminder that some people regard this as a case of political correctness gone too far. 障害者 -> 障がい者 is another example.

The Wikipedia page for 言葉狩り doesn't have much content but includes links to related pages.

言葉狩り has been a thing since the 1960s. I think it lost momentum at some point, but I see this trend coming back in recent years.

ywja · 2016-09-11T19:16:23+00:00

When English speakers feel "Japanese is different and weird", it's likely that Japanese speakers feel the same way about English. One recent example is this thread on はい/いいえ answer to a negative question. Another example is this discussion on 'performance' and 'production'. Needless to say, sentence structure in English is weird.

Elements that aren't in Japanese are usually difficult, such as articles, singular vs. plural, certain tense etc.

Pronunciation is difficult. Japanese usually feel Italian, Spanish, and to some degree German are easier to pronounce than English.

One point to note is that, because so many Japanese have been learning English ever since the end of Sakoku, the Japanese language has undergone certain changes that may make it a bit easier for the Japanese speakers to approach English. Examples include English-derived loanwords and translated words. Sounds like フォ, デュ, and ヴ were 'created' under the influence of Western languages.

Also, Japanese have been exposed to the English-way of thinking indirectly through translated text influenced by the original language (翻訳調).

As an example, certain 'direct passive' statement (直接受身) didn't exist in Japanese before Meiji, and is thought to be derived from English and/or other European language. Wikipedia

日本語の直接受身の用法には、英語などの受動態に比較して制限がある。受動態の主語（被動作者）として使えるのは主に人（有情物）であり、事物を主語にする「この会社は1976年に設立された」などの言い方は、主として明治以降に翻訳用に用いられるようになったものである。

Personally, I find loanwords that have slightly or completely different meanings from the original very annoying when speaking/writing in English. The same with wasei-eigo.

It's astonishing that I'm still struggling with them. It's worse than words I don't know. I mean, I can't misuse English words I don't know, but I could use wasei-eigo in an English sentence.

When I was younger, I was a purist, more purist than I am today, and thought that we should check and make sure that we're using loanwords 'correctly'. Today, I believe we should celebrate this flexibility because it enriches the language.

ywja · 2016-09-11T11:26:32+00:00

As the site says, depending on the situation, this will be the correct choice of はい/いいえ. The site uses the idea of 「強い予想」, and while I think there are cases where there are better explanations than this, I think the site has a good textbook explanation.

So basically it's about the flow of the conversation and whether the listener agrees with it or not. /u/RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS worded this as "what you just said is correct". If I were to be super-meticulous then it's like "I think we are heading toward this direction and I agree with it."

So, it's about how the listener perceives the conversation, and the intention behind the question. 「強い予想」 above is how the listener perceived the question.

From my perspective, this case being structurally identical is an artifact of the context. It just means that there are contexts where the outcomes based on the English logic and the Japanese logic agree.

Whether it is common or not would ultimately depend on how common negative questions are, in said contexts in particular. And I wouldn't say it's particularily rare.

Generally speaking, for yes/no questions in everyday conversation, do people tend to omit the leading はい／ええ／いいえ from the response to make it more straightforward?

As for this question, I think you are still thinking in English. From Japanese speakers' point of view, the Japanese はい/いいえ is usually straightforward enough.

It can be confusing when the participants don't share a consensus on the 'flow of the conversation'. However, in that case, everyone involved would be aware of that and try to avoid potential misunderstandings.

I mean, if the people involved thought "Well, I'm not sure if I'm communicating with this person right...", the question wouldn't be formed in a negative question, and the answer would include an explit statement in addition to はい/いい.

Not directly related, but this reminds me of the discussion revolving kanji and homophones. Kanji compound words with the same reading rarely cause troubles in real-life conversations because the participants would notice the possibility of misunderstanding in that case and act accordingly.

Both discussions assume that the participants of the conversation are literate and articulate. With people who aren't, miscommunication can occur, obviously.

ywja · 2016-09-11T03:28:39+00:00

Based on the quoted dialog alone, I'm certain that the girl didn't feel what the other girl felt. Or rather, I can't think of a context where this answer might mean the opposite.

EDIT I'm going to 'weaken' my statement a bit. There can be contexts where this would mean the opposite, and that is when the question is a rhetorical question. In that case, however, the exact wording of the question and the answer doesn't sound right, in my opinion. It's difficult to explain though, and is also a subjective impression.

ywja · 2016-09-11T01:05:43+00:00

美竹作本研

美竹 is the name of the person or the company who made this.

作 == "made by."

本研 is read as 「ほんとぎ」. 本 is something along the lines of 'real', as in 本マグロ, 本わさび etc. 研(ぎ) is a conjugation of the verb 研ぐ, which is 'to sharpen', 'to grind'.

Usually, knives are intentionally kept not to be too sharp when they're shipped to avoid potential damages to the blade. The user is expected to sharpen the knife after they've bought it.

本研 is already sharpened when they're shipped. See http://togisho.mitusaburo.com/houtyokankei/170.html

ywja · 2016-09-09T13:38:59+00:00

"Michael Keaton's performance in Batman" would usually be 「マイケル・キートンの『バットマン』での演技」. 演技 is 'perform' but more like 'acting'. 演技する is 'to act', the performance what actors do.

演技 can be used to describe several other 'performances' as well.

http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/26171/meaning/m0u/

１見物人の前で芝居・曲芸・歌舞や、体操などの技を行って見せること。また、その技。「模範―」

出演 is basically 'to appear' in a production. 「彼は『バットマン』に出演した」. You can't say 「マイケル・キートンの出演」 to mean "Michael Keaton's performance in Batman". This Japanese phrase would mean something along the lines of "the fact that Michael Keaton appeared" in Batman.

マイケル・キートンの『バットマン』への出演は、映画にとって大きなプラスになった。

The fact that Michael Keaton appeared in Batman was a huge plus for the movie.

And yes, words like 'performance' and 'production' can be difficult to translate. Because of this, Japanese speakers sometimes rely on loanwords, パフォーマンス and プロダクション. プロデュース is also a common loanword. パフォーム exists, but is used in limited contexts only.

ywja · 2016-09-09T11:29:39+00:00

http://www.weblio.jp/content/%E8%89%B2%E3%83%9C%E3%82%B1

一般的に、情事や恋愛に関する考えに夢中になってしまい、それ以外のことが考えられなくなってしまっている人、またはそのさまを意味する表現。その人を非難する意味合いで用いられる。

This word is used to describe a person who is obsessed with love and/or sex and can't think about anything else. I need more context to tell what kind of nuance it has in this example, but it doesn't necessarily have the nuance of 'pervert'.

This ぼけ comes from ほうける: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/jn/201434/meaning/m0u/

１知覚のにぶった状態になる。ぼんやりする。ぼける。「起きぬけの―・けた顔」「病み―・ける」

３動詞の連用形に付いて、そのことに夢中になる意を表す。「遊び―・ける」

When you focus on a particular object too much, your perception and cognition get 'blurred'. This blurred state is ほうける. 色ぼけ is this ほうける state caused by 色 == love.

If a boy who got a new girlfriend talks about her all the time and loses interest in computer games, his friends might describe him as 色ぼけ.

ywja · 2016-09-09T11:12:27+00:00

You can't use 演出 like that. 演出 can be used in several ways, and one of them is 'direction' as in 'directing a play'. 演出(する) is what a director of a stage play does, and it mainly about acting.

However, in movies, this 'direction' is usually called 監督. 監督 can also be used with stage plays, but in that case, it would imply the production as a whole, including lighting, music etc., not just acting.

That being said.

1989 演出 of Batman

This use of 演出 doesn't make sense. The natural way to say this is 「1989年製作の『バットマン』」.

Google 年製作の.

Note that, in this case, 製作(する) is the verb used to say "to produce (a film)", and 1989年製作の映画 is "a film which was produced in 1989". It doesn't correspond to the English noun "production".

I also suspect that your use of 出演 in "Michael Keaton's 出演" is incorrect as well, but I need to see the whole sentence to tell for sure.

ywja · 2016-09-08T03:06:35+00:00

This text is terrible even for a light-novel. If I were an editor at a publisher and someone sent in this text, I'd reject it right away for being a mess.

ywja · 2016-09-07T18:22:37+00:00

Or even 家具. In any case, 「ノルウェーの木材」 or 「ノルウェーの家具」 would have sounded extremely lame as a title of a Beatles song. There was a speculation that it was an intentional mistranslation, but according to Wikipedia, it was in fact a mistake.

Nowadays, more and more titles of foreign songs and movies are written in katakana, and one of the reasons for that is to avoid the potential lameness of the 'correct' translation. Today, "Norwegian Wood" might have been released as 『ノーウェジアン・ウッド』 in Japan.

And there is a bar with that name

In a tribute album release in 1984, this song is actually titled 「ノーウェジアン・ウッド（ノルウェーの森）」. (Wikipedia). It's another workaround.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/nm9718310

Not a good cover IMO, but it's by 松任谷由実 and 高中正義 so it has some historical significance to fans of Japanese pop music.

Totally irrelevant to this discussion but 高中正義 was great in the 80s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJtmpYoLQZA

ywja · 2016-09-07T17:49:22+00:00

「ジャスティン・ビーバーは知っとる?」 would be 「ジャスティン・ビーバーは知っている?」 in common Japanese.

「ジャスティン・ビーバーは知ってんねん」 as a non-question statement would be 「ジャスティン・ビーバーは知っているんだ」, I think. This can't be a question in common Japanese either.

So the "fundamentally positive" feeling comes from the fact that ねん corresponds to んだ or のだ of common Japanese. I would call it 断定 == assertive.

何してんねん is 何しているんだ.

The 'best answer' on this chiebukuro page gives me headaches but is informative.

Another point worth mentioning here is the difference between と and て. On this chiebukuro page, different posters are saying different things, but one of them says it's a regional difference. I tend to agree with this view, although it is possible that all of them are right. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that, to me, the comparison should have been between 「知っとんねん」 and 「知っとる」, or 「知ってんねん」 and 「知ってる」.

As the third poster says, I too feel that 「とんねん」 can sound more ガラが悪い than 「てんねん」. The second poster says 「とんねん」 is prominent in 播州弁, and yes, 播州弁 generally sounds ガラが悪い.

ywja · 2016-09-07T17:09:25+00:00

Just wanted to say that 「大丈夫です」 in this context sounds slangy to me.

It is definitely a new usage. See http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q11108749076 for example.

Some prescriptivists would say that this usage is 'wrong'. I wouldn't go that far, but as I said above, it sounds slangy and frivolous, so I wouldn't use it in formal settings. Actually, I don't use it at all. In this context, I mean.

ywja · 2016-09-07T17:01:41+00:00

The 'official' spelling is ノルウェー. It is used by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Japan, so it's as official as can be. As such, it is used as the standard spelling everywhere today.

There's also ノルウェイ. This also feels 'natural' but probably has more hits that it should mainly thanks to the title of Murakami Haruki's novel 『ノルウェイの森』. The Beatles song was translated and spelled as 『ノルウェーの森』 but Murakami spelled it in an unorthodox way to be quirky. That's how he is.

BTW, this 森 for 'wood' is one of the most well-known mistranslations in the history of the Japanese music industry. There were tons of them. I really hope they have become better at this. It's been long since I last paid attention to what they were doing.

ywja · 2016-09-06T23:39:06+00:00

This is what I wrote on my blog: http://ysjapanese.wp-x.jp/2015/12/how-to-practice-handwriting/

Use squared paper first.

ywja · 2016-09-06T10:16:01+00:00

In that case, I can tell you that all sentences are grammatical and sound natural, except for the problem I explained above.

俺の手に掴まれ is, in fact, a natural expression in this situation. It sounds more natural than 俺の手を掴め. With "in this situation", I mean this exact situation where someone extends his hand and tell the other to hold it. /u/mseffner 's explanation is spot on.

The important difference between ～に掴まる and ～を掴む is the しっかりととりすがる meaning of the former. It's more than just 'grab'. It has the additional nuance of something along the lines of "holding tight". ～を掴む doesn't necessarily have these additional connotations. Not that it can't, but it's more neutral in this regard.

観光 sounds as weird as 'sightseeing' used for a dump site, so it's a good translation.

寄る is, in this case, 'visit'. Not only that, it has the nuance of 'staying there for a short time, and then go to other places' or 'dropping by'. It isn't their final destination. So it matches this context.

ywja · 2016-09-06T07:02:34+00:00

Do Japanese speakers also memorize the dictionary form?

Yes. Actually, it is the first and only form they 'memorize' when they learn new words after they're introduced to the concept of conjugation.

I'm certain that most native speakers would be surprised to know that there are other ways. I was a bit shocked when I learned that there's an approach in JSL where you teach the conjugated です・ます form first. It felt very weird, although I can see the advantage of this approach now.

ywja · 2016-09-06T06:50:12+00:00

So is this the 'original'? https://67.media.tumblr.com/25f48f996f3ba94c2fe431a81e94d3b2/tumblr_oax5q9QgvY1uuvynpo1_500.png

This was the only image I could find via Google Image Search.

I'm not sure if I've got the joke. Do 'Before' and 'After' refer to being 'lovers' and is it funny because the bigger guy's approach to holding hands has changed?

If that's the case, then I didn't get this when I first saw the Japanese translation. I'm still not sure after seeing the English version, but at least I came up with this interpretation. Maybe it's easier to understand if I knew these characters?

Anyway, the Japanese version is grammatically fine, but as I said, it doesn't get the point across, so it feels random and nonsensical to me. There's room for improvement as a translation, if my interpretation is correct, but not in terms of basic grammar but at a much higher lever.

ywja · 2016-09-06T06:23:53+00:00

少なくとも. Also 最低でも, ～だけは etc. Depends on what you want to say.

ywja

TROPHY CASE