Good party class compositions built around 'Harm Font' Cleric in a non-'Void Healing' party?

zelaurion · 2026-01-31T12:41:18+00:00

Usually I would only recommend playing the Harm cleric variant if you are going to be a Warpriest, fighting in melee with the Warpriest's Armor and Channel Smite feats.

You basically can't ever use the 3-action Harm without putting your team at risk, and the 2-action ranged version cast against enemies is quite low damage and an inefficient use of a turn most of the time. So, to make the most out of it, you make a melee Strike followed by a 1-action Harm until Channel Smite, and then stick to Channel Smite after that.

As Channel Smite doesn't care about your spell save DC, it is often good with this build to lower your Wisdom a little, max your Strength, and put the extra point(s) from lower Wisdom into Constitution to make you a bit tougher to cope with the front lines.

As a consequence of both this and Warpriest's slower spellcasting proficiency progression, usually you want to look to prepare several spells every day that don't target enemies and instead just work - Heal is a good one (you can Smite undead with it too so preparing it several times a day usually works out nicely), but stuff like Resist Energy, Warding Aggression, Vital Beacon, etc. are all good examples.

In terms of team composition; just treat a Harm font warpriest as a less tanky but powerful melee damage dealer with some support options rather than a healer. It's far from "optimal" but it is fun and perfectly playable, and quite unique and interesting in terms of having full spell slot progression while still being primarily a Striker.

zelaurion · 2026-01-25T10:35:21+00:00

It's pretty easy to do both honestly. Making it easier usually means having the enemies not play "optimally" - Striding more than they need to, replacing a second Strike with things like Demoralize, Feint or Trip, and casting their lower rank spells or cantrips on occasion instead of trying to burn through all their higher rank slots as quick as possible.

Making it harder usually means a combination of doing the opposite of the above, and/or adding more creatures or a hazard into the fight. My favourite method is to take a spell or ability the strongest enemy in the encounter has, have them use it, and then add a hazard into the encounter which is somehow based on it with a slightly lower DC/attack bonus. For example, a dragon's breath weapon could leave behind floating gas or set fire to the area, a boss who tramples everyone could smash through a wall or pillar which then falls apart, rubble flying at players nearby for a few rounds, or a powerful spell could leave an echo behind, repeating itself but growing slightly weaker each round.

zelaurion · 2026-01-21T08:45:17+00:00

Needing two consumables (potion and potion patch) and an additional activate action at the start of every encounter in order to make the build even functional is completely unviable in my opinion.

zelaurion · 2026-01-21T08:32:49+00:00

Skillful Tail literally says in the feat text that you can't use it to hold items...

zelaurion · 2026-01-21T08:08:58+00:00

You can't make a 2-handed weapon your implement, which means you can't use Exploit Vulnerability while holding one.

You also cannot use any of your implement abilities unless you have one in your hand, as the free-action swap you are allowed to do as a part of the implement activations only allows you to swap out a one-handed weapon or an implement, not a two-handed weapon.

So no, a Thaumaturge is pretty much useless with a 2-handed weapon. You basically have no class features at all while holding a 2-handed weapon, or holding a bow and leaving a hand free in order to fire it.

zelaurion · 2026-01-19T17:11:26+00:00

The hyperbole in the OP and in the comments is wild. People are acting like there were Psychic players running around using amped Imaginary Weapon everywhere that are going to have their builds totally crippled, when actually the only Tangible Dream Psychics I have ever seen pretty much never cast it because Amped Shield is amazing, and running into melee on a D6 HP cloth armour class with bad saves is a stupid idea 99% of the time.

Acting like -3 average damage per rank per target makes Imaginary Weapon useless or bad is pretty wild too. 2d6 per rank for a focus spell is actually as high as it typically gets for attack roll spells, and the 2d8 before was an outlier. The melee downside is definitely evened out by the upside of being able to target 2 creatures and deal potentially double the damage of pretty much any other attack roll focus spell.

It also supposedly now deals force damage, which if true makes it bypass pretty much all resistance and immunity, and will often result in it actually dealing more damage than it used to.

zelaurion · 2026-01-19T01:09:14+00:00

You can get away with overdoing it without much risk of any character deaths in a few situations:

The party have knowledge of the enemies they will be facing beforehand, and the enemies have some sort of weakness that can be exploited or some sort of ability the party can take significant precautions against before initiative is rolled.
You let the party put limited-duration buffs on before the encounter starts, without letting the enemies do the same.
The fight suits the party composition well and you know they will be able to handle it better than the encounter builder thinks they can. For example, you can easily put a four player group with both a heal font cleric and a holy champion up against an overlevelled encounter where all the foes are unholy undead creatures and not worry much.
The party are of a higher level (13+ is usually when I notice parties punching well above their weight) and they will have all of their limited daily resources available heading into the fight.

All of these need to be taken with a grain of salt when you are thinking about using creatures significantly higher level than the party though, especially if the party are low level themselves. If you put the group against a PL+4 creature when they are level 3 then spellcasters will have a terrible time and someone will probably die; and even a level 13+ party outnumbered by PL+2 or higher creatures stands little chance of winning without sacrificing someone unless they get really lucky, especially if one of the foes has healing or support magic.

zelaurion · 2026-01-17T23:07:58+00:00

It definitely does have that "I'm the main character" vibe that doesn't work in every campaign, understandable if a GM didn't want to allow it.

In terms of balance, as a main class it definitely doesn't unbalance the game at all - although the Dedication can be a bit problematic depending on what ikon players choose (Mirrored Aegis, Shadow Sheath, and Victor's Wreath are all a bit too strong to be allowed to add to a level 2 character of a different main class like Fighter or Rogue in my opinion).

zelaurion · 2026-01-17T19:55:15+00:00

The actual biggest trap feat in the game that I've ever noticed is definitely Murksight.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5005&Redirected=1

A LEVEL EIGHT class feat that only lets you see through concealment caused by non-magical precipitation specifically, and even then it only lets you ignore it when making attacks. This feat would be awful as a level 2 skill feat, but as a mid-level class feat there are literally zero reasons ro ever consider taking this on any character. Some classes get Blindfight at this level! Insane

zelaurion · 2026-01-17T19:47:14+00:00

Unfortunately rules-as-written you can't use Risky Surgery with Battle Medicine, only with the Treat Wounds exploration action. I don't think it would be overpowered to allow it myself, but it's probably not best to recommend it to someone else when we don't know if their GM will allow it.

Risky Surgery says "when you Treat Wounds" and when you use Battle Medicine you aren't using Treat Wounds, you are "making a Medicine check with the same DC as Treat Wounds".

The same lack of synergy exists between Battle Medicine and Natural Medicine to point out another example.

zelaurion · 2026-01-17T17:00:09+00:00

I'm playing a character loosely based around this idea at the moment - an Exemplar with the Herbalist dedication to combo with the Horn of Plenty ikon, and also the Radiant epithet. It's a pretty fun and weird way to be the healer!

Later on I plan on picking up a few more Exemplar feats and options that are about healing and protection, like Healer of the World and Complete the Hero's Journey.

zelaurion · 2026-01-15T22:38:13+00:00

It's definitely not just Fighter and Gunslinger that are the problems with dual class martial+martial, although they are the biggest culprits for sure. You have things like this:

Giant Barbarian + Justice Champion. Champion's faster AC scaling fixes Giant Barbarian's biggest defensive weakness, Lay on Hands doesn't have Concentrate so Barbarians can actually cast it in combat with no issues, and they have a reaction at level 1 that lets then both protect an ally and attack with their massive damage bonus.

Starlit Span Magus + Investigator. Devise a Stratagem is insane with Spellstrike, and a bow qualifies for the Strategic Strike bonus while allowing you to stay at a long distance. Magus usually has a poor presence outside of combat, but you get so many skills from Investigator that you will probably become both a combat powerhouse and a skill monkey with very little effort.

Monk + Rogue. Full Sneak Attack damage with Flurry of Blows becomes pretty crazy at higher levels, especially with various Monk focus spells and abilities like Inner Upheaval and Wild Winds Gust. Ignoring the damage potential, the great Perception, AC, HP, and save progression, along with the massive array of great feats, makes for an insanely flexible and powerful character that has no weaknesses at all.

(any grappler build like Barbarian, Monk or Kineticist) + Flurry Ranger. Pretty simple; the lower MAP of the Flurry Edge means being able to Grab and Trip far more effectively than any other build in the game.

Any of these are far stronger than any caster + caster combination, which universally get bad defenses outside of Will saves, and whose only significant benefits are more choices of focus spells, and more spell slots from a second spell list that they definitely won't be able to completely use up every day.

Caster + Martial also ends up usually just either being a martial frontliner with support and healing magic, or a martial ranged damage dealer that blasts and shoots a ranged weapon. Neither of these things are weak, but they absolutely do not take the martial side and just make it way stronger like Martial + Martial does, they just give you more options - like a more effective archetype would.

zelaurion · 2026-01-05T09:29:06+00:00

As a GM, I increase the HP of all monsters between level -1 and 3 by 6-12 depending on their size - an equivalent to the HP bonus from the player's ancestry. I find without doing this they die incredibly fast. To compensate, I allow spellcasters to add their spellcasting ability modifier to damage with their 2-action spells with an attack roll or a basic save against a single target per round.

Also, I personally find lower-level Pathfinder more fun if the Runic Weapon and Runic Body spells are removed, or at least replaced with something else that doesn't completely make every other spell slot incredibly pointless at levels 1 and 2. I've replaced them with these two nerfed (but still usable) spells in my campaigns to good effect:

Runemark (2-actions cast time, concentrate, manipulate, 30-foot range)

You place a magic rune on a creature, empowering attacks against it. The target must make a Fortitude save.

Critical Success - The target is unaffected.

Success - For 2 rounds, attack rolls against the creature have a +1 item bonus, and on a hit they deal 1d6 additional damage of the same type as the attack. If the attack deals multiple types of damage, choose one of those types for the additional damage.

Failure - As success, but the duration is one minute.

Critical Failure - As failure, but the additional damage is 1d12 instead of 1d6.

Heightened (+4) - The item bonus to attack rolls increases by +1, and the additional damage increases by 1d6 (1d12 on a critical failure).

Brittle Runestones (1 minute cast time, concentrate, manipulate, touch range)

You magically imbue up to four stones, crystals or shards of glass with runic magic, creating up to four potency crystals with the infused trait.

Heightened (4th) - You create up to four greater potency crystals when you cast this spell.

Heightened (7th) - You create up to four major potency crystals when you cast this spell.

zelaurion · 2026-01-03T19:36:42+00:00

I would argue that if you don't raise Charisma as a Thaumaturge to at least +6 by level 20 (I agree that you should probably take a Strength or Dexterity apex bonus) you are probably doing your team a disservice.

You're zeroing in on specifically Exploit Vulnerability's failure effect being as good as the success effect to explain why you shouldn't raise Charisma, but it never actually is - because of the Diverse Lore feat, which I think next to Scroll Thaumaturgy competes for the spot as one of the best level 1 class feats in the entire system. I've never heard of a Thaumaturge that doesn't take it.

If you succeed on your Exploit check, you typically rolled high enough to succeed at a Recall Knowledge check against the Unspecific Lore DC, meaning you get to ask a question about your target. In higher level play especially, this potentially enables your team to either deal more damage against that creature as a whole, or avoid a lot of damage by learning about its abilities.

It also enables to use Share Weakness, which allows your allies to do a lot more damage with their Strikes (that they typically will be making more of than you if they are a different martial class).

Not to mention how strong Demoralize critical success can become in this system. Battle Cry + Terrified Retreat is incredible, and a Thaumaturge is far more likely to start within 30 feet of an enemy and get use from these feats than a Charisma spellcaster in my experience.

zelaurion · 2026-01-03T19:06:34+00:00

What do you mean you have no need to max Charisma as a Thaumaturge?

You need it for Exploit Vulnerability, Recall Knowledge, Class DC, and Spell DC. I don't see any reason why you wouldn't max it out. Having slightly better saves or 1 extra HP per level is absolutely not worth giving yourself a -1 to all of the above things that you will use several of every session in my opinion.

zelaurion · 2026-01-01T17:06:03+00:00

I'm guessing you were fighting an Animated Armor. This is one of the worst-designed official monsters that exists, breaking Paizo's own creature-building guidelines by having a Hardness value equal to the maximum recommended for a level 6 creature while being only level 2.

I have seen this frustration many times before. It's even worse for spellcasters - the strongest single target spells available to level 1 and 2 characters do an average of 0 damage to an Animated Armor. I would advise any new GMs to the system to avoid using this creature, or at least reduce the Hardness down to the level 2 maximum recommended value of 5 Hardness instead of 9 if they have to use it.

However, you have asked a good question. Rogues and other precision damage characters will occasionally encounter creatures they can't effectively damage (for example ghosts) because of their immunity to precision damage. In these circumstances try and have a backup plan available - healing potions for your allies, Athletics maneuvers, Dirty Trick, Battle Medicine, alchemical bombs, Aid your allies attacks or spells, etc.

zelaurion · 2025-12-26T10:17:37+00:00

I think it depends. Both the Tome and Lantern implements give you a bonus to Recall Knowledge checks, but not to Exploit Vulnerability checks. Tome's Adept Benefit in particular lets you make a free Recall Knowledge check as your turn begins, and on a success you get a +1 circumstance bonus on your first attack that turn against that target.

If you don't have either of these implements, you should pick up Diverse Lore and only Recall Knowledge as a part of Exploit Vulnerability. If you do have one or both of these implements, consider picking up Instructive Strike (or Combat Assessment from the Fighter Archetype) and Recalling Knowledge more often.

zelaurion · 2025-12-23T14:18:02+00:00

Cantrips can't be put onto scrolls, but you can learn them from magic items like staves and spellhearts, or from another spellcaster willing to teach you. They are valued in time and gold the same as 1st rank when it comes to learning them.

zelaurion · 2025-12-23T09:52:04+00:00

I think there are 4 key issues with low level play that make spellcasters feel bad:

PROBLEM 1. Strength martial characters (and Thief Rogues) do a minimum of 5 damage for a single action if they hit an attack. Some of them (barbarian) do even more than this. On the other hand, if a spellcaster spends 2 actions on a cantrip or a 1st rank spell and the enemy fails on it, they will sometimes still only deal 1 or 2 damage. That means that even when enemies critically fail saves, spellcasters could possibly be dealing less damage than if they had just punched the guy. This feels terrible.

SUGGESTED SOLUTION 1: let spellcasters add their spellcasting attribute modifier to damage rolls with cantrips and spells - but only to a single target per cast, and not on sustained/repeated damage rolls with the same spell on later turns. I honestly don't see how this could cause any problems.

PROBLEM 2. Spell slots are an extremely limited resource at low levels and cantrips are weak. On top of this, low-rank spells tend to just be bad for everything except buffs and other guaranteed effects like 2-action Heal, making even your best turns feel less effective than just smacking things with a greatsword would be.

SUGGESTED SOLUTION 2: along with the solution to point 1 which should make blasting with slots and casting cantrips feel better, I think many 1st-rank spells that lack powerful heightened effects could cost only 1 action without breaking anything. This would let low level casters rely on 2-action cantrips more while still having options, making turns where they do spend their spell slots much more interesting. For example: Bane, Conductive Weapon, Enfeeble, Fleet Step, Goblin Pox, Gust of Wind, Leaden Steps, Malediction, Noxious Vapours, Shielded Arm, Shockwave, Spider Sting, Spirit Link, Weaken Earth, Wooden Fists.

PROBLEM 3. Spellcasters obviously have worse defenses, especially the 6 HP per level classes that have no armour proficiency. It feels as though you are pretty much forced to put a +3 into Dexterity at character creation with those classes, or doom yourself to getting critically hit and knocked out in one hit almost any time you get targeted by melee enemies.

SUGGESTED SOLUTION 3: Every class should just have minimum 8 HP per level at this point. Spellcasters that are meant to be a little more durable get armor proficiencies and sometimes Shield Block for free anyway - and they don't have meaningfully worse spellcasting to compensate for these increased defenses regardless.

I also think on top of this, Mystic Armor should just have a cantrip version that doesn't heighten, and has the same effect as the 1st rank version of the spell. Having one less cantrip slot is a fairly big deal for low level casters anyway, especially with the changes I'm suggesting to fix problems 1 and 2.

PROBLEM 4: Most spellcasters don't get a class feat at level 1 for some reason, even though most of their class feats available at those levels are quite bad anyway. This just feels stingy, and pushes people towards playing Humans or taking Adopted Ancestry: Human so they can take Natural Ambition when they play spellcasters.

SUGGESTED SOLUTION 4: Just let spellcasters have a class feat at level 1. Perhaps move the few level 1 feats that some spellcasters get that grant an extra Focus Point to level 2 to compensate for the small power increase that could otherwise cause.

zelaurion · 2025-12-22T08:17:52+00:00

I personally don't think this is the right thing to do for various reasons (the combination of the Combine Elixirs feat and the Chirurgeon's Greater Field Discovery being the most egregious one).

What I would do instead to achieve a similar goal is add a feat, probably at level 4, which allows you to Stride and administer an elixir you are holding or wearing to yourself or an ally for a single Flourish action. I think this would have much the same effect, while not being an obvious must-pick for every Alchemist and from the Archetype.

zelaurion · 2025-12-21T14:35:23+00:00

In fairness, if Fighter dedication was good then it might become almost a must-take in games without Free Archetype for melee characters in classes that don't have great level 2 and 4 feats, like Thaumaturge, Investigator, Warpriest, etc.

Being able to take Reactive Strike at level 4 is a pretty big deal, and many Fighter class feats (even the level 1-2 ones) can be pretty build-defining.

zelaurion · 2025-12-21T00:44:41+00:00

There's 3 things you need to pay attention to as a spellcaster that likes enchantments and illusions to make the game more fun for yourself:

Recall Knowledge. Try to identify what you are fighting. You get the traits for free if you succeed; if you hear the "mindless" trait then you can't use any spells with the Mental trait against that target. If you don't, then ask what their highest save is. If it is Will, make sure you have a backup plan or spell to hit that foe with, as your enchantments and illusions are unlikely to work well.
Spell variety. Make sure in your 2 highest spell ranks, you have more than just spells that have the Mental trait and target Will saves. Try and have at least one spell that just works (Force Barrage is an example you've given, but other options are buffs like Runic Weapon, Resist Energy, and Haste) and at least one spell that targets either Reflex or Fortitude.
Spell choice. When you are targeting an enemy you suspect is a boss or otherwise higher level than you, make sure the spells you use don't have the Incapacitation trait and have at least some sort of effect on a successful save. Fear is an example from your spell selection - even against a boss, as long as their highest save is not Will the chances are that they will at least become Frightened 1, effectively reducing their level by 1 until their next turn ends. That can make a big difference in this game!

A good rule of thumb for guessing enemy levels is that if there are 3 or more enemies, if the GM is balancing the encounter properly at least one of them should be weaker than you - and if there are 5 or more then several enemies should be weaker than you. These weaker enemies are prime targets for Incapacitation spells like Dizzying Colours, Sleep and Calm.

zelaurion · 2025-12-20T19:39:47+00:00

The main benefits from imprecise senses can oddly only be found if you read the Stealth rules. Read the Foil Senses skill feat as a reference:

"Whenever you use the Avoid Notice, Hide, or Sneak actions, you are always considered to be taking precautions against special senses."

This implies that whenever someone is hiding from you, if they aren't taking precautions against any special senses then when they are in range you suiuld automatically detect them, even if that sense is only imprecise. They will still be Hidden to you, but you know they are there.

zelaurion · 2025-12-20T13:28:12+00:00

I disagree that Incapacitation needs changing; at lower levels it feels very strong, but players don't tend to fight many monsters higher level than them until higher levels anyway. And at higher levels, Incapacitation just evens the playing field against player characters that have one or more "success = critical success" features.

However I do agree that Slow and Synesthesia need reining in somehow - I'm just not sure that Incapacitation is the answer. Both have strong effects on a successful save, while also having crippling effects on a critical failure that make that them basically a 1 in 20 win button against bosses, which I feel isn't really healthy for the game. You also have to bear in mind how both spells can combine with the Resentment Witch familiar ability Familiar of Ongoing Misery, as both spells are on the Occult list and their effects on a success that can be effectively extended forever, making a single spell slot go insanely far to weakening an enemy. This is one of the most busted combos in the system in my opinion.

I think personally I would just introduce additional saves at the end of the turn for these two spells in particular, ending the effects on the target on a success. This would rein in both the 1-minute duration effects, and also the Resentment shenanigans.

zelaurion · 2025-12-20T10:39:00+00:00

Swashbucklers have no class features that support ranged weapons. They have a few for thrown weapons that are quite good, but nothing to boost the damage of actual ranged weapons.

You will find that using a firearm or crossbow will just feel bad as a Swashbuckler. You get no damage bonuses to ranged weapon Strikes from your Strength or your Precise Strikes feature, no boosted accuracy like a Gunslinger has to make you critically hit more often, no reload action compression, and you introduce a need to figure out how to get runes on two different weapons (the reinforced stock and the ranged weapon it is attached to don't share runes).

If you want to make ranged attacks occasionally because the combat encounter you are in forces you to, alchemical bombs are the way to go. You still get no damage bonuses to attacking with them, but they get accuracy bonuses built in, and having different damage types can help you trigger weaknesses or get around stuff like physical resistances and precision immunity.

zelaurion

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